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Old Jan 30, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28   #21
Manic Smile
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Vox Populi

I think you're missing the OPs point. Look at the title...he wants to be able to use "nukers"..."damage dealing" Eles. I'm guessing...perhaps infering too much...that he feels that Eles were made to appear to be able to do something they cannot...or perhaps it is simply a assumption/desire based on how Ele's function in other games/media. What you said in your second major paragraph has been stated ...aside from the range point but that is implied by Ele Spiking I would think.....and I dobt he would argue with it. Again your last paragraph while more spelled out is again implied by Ele Spiking...but the OP makes a somewhat clear distinction between "spiking" and "damage dealing"

if not i think Vermilion Okeanos sumerizes it very nicely

Last edited by Manic Smile; Jan 30, 2006 at 06:33 AM // 06:33..
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Old Jan 30, 2006, 07:10 AM // 07:10   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RazielFirestorm
as some1 who enjoys using warrior and elementalist i cant agree that eles are useless.
No one has ever made that argument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RazielFirestorm
a twin attuned ele with arcane echo and lightning orb can cast out almost 1 orb every 2.5 secs for 20 secs which is good damage
Ok, let's accept your little premise here - Arcane Echo into Lightning Orb spam with a Lightning Strike in between every Orb pair due to cooldowns. That gives you a sequence of, ideally:

Arcane Echo -> Lightning Orb -> Echoed Orb -> Strike -> Orb -> Echo Orb -> Strike -> Orb -> Echo Orb -> Strike -> Orb.

The whole sequence, riding recharges, will deal 1190 damage over 28.75 seconds for a blazing 41.39 DPS. I don't think you even want to look at the energy requirements. Then you're stuck with downtime. Have fun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RazielFirestorm
And yes an attune can be stripped you can be stopped from casting etc but so can a warrior be crippled blinded, weakened, ss etc.
Yes, getting your 60-second recharge attunements stripped when you are *completely dependant* upon them for energy management, and a warrior being blinded for a few seconds before it gets pulled are directly comparable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RazielFirestorm
I mean obsidian spiking when done properly will take down a warrior heavy build any day of the week because of damage output mixed in with warding power and the negating of a warrior's best friend, his armour.
A Warrior-heavy team has absolutely no incentive to fight a stupid Obsidian Flame spike team that hides in wards. Just run around their little healing ball and kill the Lord. If you want to run a dumb stationary defense, fine, but you get to run it in your base hugging your NPCs.


Quote:
Originally Posted by draco inferno
OK, case and point.
Case and point - PvE is about 55-HP monks who abuse selected zones with health degeneration or enchantment removal, and AI abuse via Spiteful Spirit on mobs who bunch up in convenient farming clusters. Modern PvE power-farming is about AI abuse and carefully selecting powerless, stupid mobs, which has nothing to do with game balance, skill design, or really anything relevant whatsoever.


Quote:
Originally Posted by draco inferno
air spells deal even less damage than a warrior (although I still feel a little skeptical on that one).
Put down the gear, pump up your weapon attribute, and swing your weapon. You will be amazed.


Quote:
Originally Posted by draco inferno
I think that a good air ele could take down a warrior in a fair, one on one fight.
Colorless green ideas sleep furiously.


Quote:
Originally Posted by draco inferno
Damage per minute is a great statistic, but is skewed toward the Warrior. What good is it if for the first 10 seconds of the minute you are running at the enemy while he is attacking you? What if you are Blinded, or Clumbsied or etc. for the next 20 seconds? What if you are dead for the last 10?
What if you get zeroed out by a Power Leak and have a Mind Wracker sitting on your face? What if you get a Migraine buried on you? What if a Ranger decides to make you his personal bitch?

What if is a fun but pointless game, don't you think?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Glasswalker
Elementalists can get big damage out in a few skills before the Warrior even gets there -- And sometimes that's all it takes.
Want to know how long it takes for a Warrior to close from the edge of spellcasting range to Raging Your Face? Around 3.5 seconds. Without using a speed buff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Glasswalker
So you've got ~3 skills with a massive recharge, but impressive damage
The Elementalist does not have any skills with impressive single-target damage. In fact the Elementalist is no better than the third strongest single-target spiker.

Individually, a Warrior is the strongest single target spiker. He has the single deadliest individual attack, Eviscerate, which hits for an average in the 80s, a critical upwards of 112, plus a Deep Wound that counts for roughly one hundred damage. That's a 180-210 damage single attack with a minimal use time, for those keeping track. We'll conveniently ignore that a Warrior can follow that hit up in less than a second with another attack in the 80s, unlike a caster who has to wait 1.75 seconds before their next attack can land.

The second strongest individual spiker is the Mesmer. Phantom Pain -> Shatter Delusions is the strongest ranged spike in the game again due to the broken Deep Wound mechanic, but even ignoring that Shatter Enchantment is a top notch spike skill that both hits for 106 unerring, armor ignoring damage and removes what it likely a defensive enchantment.

Eles are a distant third with Obsidian Flame, which is 118 unerring damage with an unappealing cast time but a very appealing recharge (though it's hard to really make use of due to exhaustion limitations). It's the best 'stackable' spike skill, but the damage really isn't anything special (5x Obsidian Flames = 590 damage = exactly enough to kill someone prepared to defend against spike). The other servicable option is Lightning Orb, which hits casters for 140 (doesn't ignore armor), though it has all the problems of a projectile attack. It's an ok option for a spike skill if you have reasons for that guy to be in Air already, but if you don't just use Obsidian Flame.


Rangers are the standard for a spike build for a reason - buff stacking. A single Dual->Punishing Ranger spiker with Orders up hits for roughly 250 damage in half a second. It does take some buffing to get that, but for that kind of punishment who cares?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Detrick Sky
My guild routinely destory's groups with lots of warriors because of our use of counter classes.
My guild routinely destroys 'anti-Warrior' builds because we have lots of Warriors and they don't.

If you have an argument to make, please make it. Vague statements like the above contribute nothing whatsoever to any argument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi
Of course Warriors are going to come out ahead in your little thought experiment because you've tilted the rules to be in their favor.
I don't feel that I've needed to 'tilt the rules' in the favor of Warriors at all - the game itself does that well enough from what I can tell. Still, since you obviously take issue with metrics like 'who deals the most damage over an instantaneous/5 second/60 second timeframe', I would suggest that you propose a 'fair' metric so that we can discuss this 'reasonably'.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi
But you're having an Elementalist play the Warrior's game.
Trying to do damage, yes. As concluded, an Elementalist can't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi
They've got "large packets" and they have one thing that Warriors are lacking - range.
...so you're suggesting that Elementalists might be good in some sort of spike build?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi
Elementalists aren't there to slug it out with the other team, they're artilery. Mass them up, point them at the person who needs to die, and let them deliver massive spikes to punch through defenses.
See you say things like this and I have to wonder if you've been reading the thread. Massive spikes that punch through defenses? Are you sure we're playing the same game? I'm wondering if you're actually paying attention, or just spouting intelligent sounding garbage for the sake of being contrary.

Let me spell this out as plainly as possible. Elementalists are not artillery. You might think they are from looking at the character and skill descriptions, or get that impression by looking at comparable characters in other games. But they don't do what you think they do. They do not deal 'massive damage' at range, no matter how many times people say they do. The numbers are exactly the same for all of us and you can go into the new Isle of the Nameless and see for yourself if you don't believe anyone for whatever reason. Elementalists deal average damage at range for obscene energy costs and cast times.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi
Elementalists are risky. They have better spikes but they're costly
No they don't. That's part of the problem.

In instantaneous timeframes, Warriors deal more damage than *any* Elementalist skill due to Deep Wound. A large fraction of the raw damage ignores armor, as well.

In short, non-instantaneous timeframes, the Warrior similarly outperforms the Elementalist in all facets, because his attacks are 4/3rd seconds apart, 8/9ths apart if you use a speed boost, while the fastest followup available to an Elementalist is 1.75 seconds later. The followup from the Elementalist is similarly weaker than the followup from a Warrior, simply because the 'big hits' from a Warrior do not have cast times, only reuse timers, while Elementalist spells have cast times to worry about as well.

A Warrior can hit Eviscerate -> Executioner's -> Penetrating in the time it takes an Elementalist to cast that followup Lightning Strike. If you are willing to throw out the 2 second cast time of Lightning Orb (which I am, if you're willing to give a Warrior two seconds to get to his spike target), then you're looking at 228 damage from a Warrior, plus Deep Wound, in 1.77- seconds compared to 210 damage from an Air Elementalist in 1.75 seconds. If you factor in the virtual Deep Wound damage, which you should because that Deep Wound does kill people, then the Axe guy dealt ~340 damage in the same extended spike.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vox Populi
You heard it here first, apparently.
You would have seen yourself refuted in the original post, had you actually bothered to read it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Symbol
Elementalist spike is hurt by aftercast. So while mass obsidian flame is a GODLY first strike, the follow up is difficult to do quickly.
Mass Obsidian Flame pales in comparison to buffed Rangers (118 per Elementalist as opposed to ~250 per Ranger). In addition Elementalists do not get a followup - 1.75 seconds at fastest is an eternity when many Monks start to get heals in mid-spike if it isn't extremely tight. It might as well not even come if the other team is not about to break. Of course this is a moot point for the Earth Elementalist as he doesn't have any exciting followup options anyway.

But your point is well taken. An attacker can chain some quick attacks together to make a huge spike out of several smaller (or larger, as the case may be) attacks. A caster on the other hand is limited to one spell spikes, because his cast times and particularly the aftercast keep him from following up in a timely fashion. Hence it should be obvious why Rangers are the spikers of choice - they operate at range, they can be buffed unlike casters, and they can chain quick attacks together to hit someone with multiple strikes before anyone can respond. Is a 140 damage Lightning Orb, goofy trajectory and all, really all that scary when that's around?

Peace,
-CxE
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Old Jan 30, 2006, 07:44 AM // 07:44   #23
Symbol
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Quote:
Mass Obsidian Flame pales in comparison to buffed Rangers (118 per Elementalist as opposed to ~250 per Ranger). In addition Elementalists do not get a followup - 1.75 seconds at fastest is an eternity when many Monks start to get heals in mid-spike if it isn't extremely tight. It might as well not even come if the other team is not about to break. Of course this is a moot point for the Earth Elementalist as he doesn't have any exciting followup options anyway.
Perhaps I should have said it's a godly _single_ strike. I don't think even pumped up with orders that, on average, dual shot will match the damage of a single obsidian flame-since after all obs flame does completely ignore armor. It's also ranged, doesn't need LOS, and can't be avoided. IMO it's an impressive skill. Too bad the elementalist doesn't have anything else in his repertoire to match it.

Also, didn't one of the updates add an aftercast equivalent to the ranger's interrupt skills?

Last edited by Symbol; Jan 30, 2006 at 08:37 AM // 08:37..
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Old Jan 30, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Symbol
Also, didn't one of the updates add an aftercast equivalent to the ranger's interrupt skills?
For a brief while, the interrupts were broken again allowing you to spam them without delay. The update fixed them to their right state.
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Old Jan 30, 2006, 02:48 PM // 14:48   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Symbol
Perhaps I should have said it's a godly _single_ strike. I don't think even pumped up with orders that, on average, dual shot will match the damage of a single obsidian flame-since after all obs flame does completely ignore armor. It's also ranged, doesn't need LOS, and can't be avoided. IMO it's an impressive skill. Too bad the elementalist doesn't have anything else in his repertoire to match it.

Also, didn't one of the updates add an aftercast equivalent to the ranger's interrupt skills?
I think you'd be surprised. While I'm no Ensign and have just started number-crunching, I calculate the average dual shot (at just 12 marksmanship) to do 52 damage to a 60AL target. However, 16 blood orders and a vamp 5/1 bow add 74 armor ignoring damage right on top of that damage, to bring it up to 126 damage, past the level of an obsidian flame. That's just average, if both arrows from the dual shot hit critical, you'd do 156 damage. And this is all with no arrow prep at all.

Against a 100AL warrior target the obsidian will win most of the time, with the average dual shot doing 26 damage, and 100 with orders and the vamp bow. Though again, if both arrows hit critical, you'd do 116 damage, almost the level of an obs flame.

This is all at 12 marksmanship, if you do 16 (as you probably should when comparing to obsidian flame) I think it does something like 15% more damage than these numbers, and higher critical % (I've been using 20% chance for figures).
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Old Jan 30, 2006, 06:01 PM // 18:01   #26
Symbol
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I forgot about dual orders. Wow. It's pretty ridiculous that one character can more than double the damage output of a whole team.
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Old Jan 30, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39   #27
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Heh, and I knew it was wise to delete my ele. Something just didn't feel right at all when I went through pve with him. Subpar damage, squishy, terrible energy management ('til elites)... yeah, it wasn't just me. I had more fun playing water in pve than fire to tell the truth. :\ The most fun I had with an ele in pvp was abusing that thunderclap bug with a shortbow. That's saying not much of the supposed "nuker" class. Just the wrong style.

It's definitely worse in pvp. You've got prot going around, smarter enemy healers, and more interrupt/shutdown. There's really no way an ele can really put continuous pressure on without putting himself into way negative energy. But if you're just reducing them to "ward bitches", as Ensign so puts it, the elementalists' so-called nuking function is gone.

On anet's stance of multi-line eles... I'm not sure they realize that to do any real damage an ele pretty much needs 16 in his line (barring water and maybe earth as well, depending if you're ob spiking or being a ward ho). Now that means a 12+4, 10+1, 8+1 (or 12, 11, 6) spread, and if ele emanagement is as bad as it is (spamming water trident and shard storm even with an attune up? geez) there's not much wiggle room at all.

Except mesmers, whose primary attribute can be debated in another topic, the casters (and rangers) generally have passive energy management via their primary attribute. Mesmers, of course, run emanagement actively with Inspiration or their secondary. That, combined with the basic energy regen of each profession, pretty much dictate the costs, recharges, and activation times of each class's skills. Basically, it seems like Anet says "hey, eles can have 100 energy, let's just make most of their spells worth using cost 10, 15, 25 and have their management be enchant-based! Oh and there's this exhaustion thing too." You can see this with rangers v. warriors: the former's skills take more energy to activate (10 v. 5 energy for power shot/attack, whirling v. gladiator's, and so on) but any good ranger worth his salt will have 12+ in expertise.

In fact, eles seem to be the only class that requires at least a good amount of points in their primary attribute to reach even a minimum level of battlefield-readiness. Yes, monks can do without DF if they're smiting, for example, but hey, eles did it better back in the day because of their four gazillion energy. Multi-line, all right, coming to you last summer.

Last edited by Seef II; Jan 30, 2006 at 07:41 PM // 19:41..
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Old Jan 30, 2006, 07:48 PM // 19:48   #28
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Yeah, I know this thread is about PvP, but the problem is not just limited to PvP. I've been going through the latter with my blood nuker, and he kills high level enemies much faster than my ele ever did (though to be fair, it kills faster than 95% of the builds out there, warriors included). And he's not reliant on enchants for energy management. I've also had much more success with this character in the arenas than I ever did with my ele. And I've tried pretty much every high dps air, fire, or earth build I could think of.
Armor ignoring damage is no joke!

Now AoE is no longer reliable in PvE or PvP the ele's problems are coming to the forefront.

Quote:
Yes, monks can do without DF if they're smiting, for example, but hey, eles did it better back in the day because of their four gazillion energy. Multi-line, all right, coming to you last summer.
The _new_ ele skills in the expansion are likely to be gimmicks. But a.net are serious about balance and I expect the ele skill lines to recieve a complete overhaul after the world championships. So don't lose hope yet.

Last edited by Symbol; Jan 30, 2006 at 07:51 PM // 19:51..
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Old Jan 30, 2006, 11:20 PM // 23:20   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Symbol
Perhaps I should have said it's a godly _single_ strike. I don't think even pumped up with orders that, on average, dual shot will match the damage of a single obsidian flame-since after all obs flame does completely ignore armor. It's also ranged, doesn't need LOS, and can't be avoided. IMO it's an impressive skill. Too bad the elementalist doesn't have anything else in his repertoire to match it.
Even without Orders you still get basic buffs like Read the Wind and a Vampiric Bow String.

At 12 attribute, Dual->Savage kicks out 137 damage with just Read the Wind. Dual-> Punishing would do 155. If you went to 16 attribute for whatever reason those numbers would be 159 and 180, respectively.

An Order from a Necro primary adds 51 damage per Ranger, from a Necro secondary you get +39 per Ranger.

A 12 marks Dual Shot shot pumped up with Orders and RTW will kick out 153 damage in a single strike, 96 of it armor ignoring. The follow-up Punishing Shot averages 104.


Not that I'm going to dump on Obsidian Flame, I like the skill. It has a lot of good properties, from being instant hit to ignoring armor and just about all defenses in general. I think it's solid all things considered, good enough to be a selling point of the earth line. Impressive though? I can't go that far, not when it doesn't even hit half as hard as a Ranger does in a spike.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Seef II
Basically, it seems like Anet says "hey, eles can have 100 energy, let's just make most of their spells worth using cost 10, 15, 25 and have their management be enchant-based! Oh and there's this exhaustion thing too."
The problem is that energy needs to be reliable and steady, and that energy replenishment is an order of magnitude more important than max energy. So much so that I'd argue that the value of max energy pool is more in the flexibility it gives you with your emanagement skills than in the few extra points of energy you gain. In the case of the Elementalist I feel that the real value of energy storage is as an exhaustion buffer.

So yeah, there's a problem with Elementalist skills that are being costed for that max energy pool when they should really be priced for the much more relevant 4 pips of energy regeneration. Necromancers get hammered by this as well because there's some expectation that soul reaping can fix your energy, while in reality you'd have to be insane to rely upon that for your emanagement.

Peace,
-CxE
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Old Jan 30, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ensign
The problem is that energy needs to be reliable and steady, and that energy replenishment is an order of magnitude more important than max energy. So much so that I'd argue that the value of max energy pool is more in the flexibility it gives you with your emanagement skills than in the few extra points of energy you gain. In the case of the Elementalist I feel that the real value of energy storage is as an exhaustion buffer.
Ive been thinking about your commentary regarding improving the elementalist skills and relating it to some of the conditional chain skills like ice hex->lightning touch or comparing maximum energy pools for the mind spells. What struck me was both are relativly inefficent ways to really go about achiving a similar bonus effect that is very easy to accomplish between melee and support characters. For whatever reason ANET is simply unwilling to allow a single source of damage to really max out the damage. To a degree i agree with this philosphy, but there has to be a compromise if one of 3 primary damage dealing classes through direct damage in terms of use and inflation if the profession must be self contained.

The channeling line has ways of energy recovery and damage augmentation through spirit use or holding an item. If a similar logic were to follow elementalists, then not only should there be spells that compare maximum energy pools which is a defining trait for elementalists, there should also be skills that amplify damage and energy recovery if there are more than one elementalist involved or if the elementalist in question has exhaustion. Currently there is energy recovery in exchange for exhaustion in the form of ether prodigy, but there is nothing in the way of buy back energy through a single skill use similar to say essence strike. All of the energy recovery is split up into many different skill positions and they only perfom one function, instead of multi tasking like essense strike does. Another option would be for damage augmentation from having exhaustion. For example a spell could measure the amount of exhaustion and amplify the damage based on how much exhaustion currently exists on the character in question. To take it a step further, it could either add more exhaustion from use further amplifying the damage, but limiting the use of skills in general or it could remove existing exhaustion to prevent an over the top spike generated in many packets from several users. If the latter was used, it would add flexablilty in skill choices compared to what exists currently. Other options include amplifying/adding damage/energy recovery based on other nearby elementalists or create wards for each skill line that function as means to augment as well. They could also be generic and mimic some glyph effects and be linked under the energy storage attribute.

Some people might mention glyphs, but they are severly limited in power and capability even when compared against other profession options of similar use. Most of them are not even good enough to take a spot on the skill bar, never mind actually spend energy on or waste time in use of preperation.

Last edited by Phades; Jan 30, 2006 at 11:55 PM // 23:55..
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Old Jan 31, 2006, 12:36 AM // 00:36   #31
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Quote:
Not that I'm going to dump on Obsidian Flame, I like the skill. It has a lot of good properties, from being instant hit to ignoring armor and just about all defenses in general. I think it's solid all things considered, good enough to be a selling point of the earth line. Impressive though? I can't go that far, not when it doesn't even hit half as hard as a Ranger does in a spike.
Yeah, but to be fair you comparison is to dual/savage w.o orders or to dual with dual orders. For what it is obs flame is impressive. Those comparisons don't really say much about obs flame, rather they're just another way of saying:
a) aftercast prevents follow ups for and b) there are no buffs for spell damage.
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Old Jan 31, 2006, 12:58 AM // 00:58   #32
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Is there a bug with Deep Wound that keeps the damage on even after Deep Wound is removed?

Because it's a tad unfair that Deep Wound is part of a godly spike, but blind will get removed instantly...
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Old Jan 31, 2006, 01:13 AM // 01:13   #33
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Personally I feel this thread is starting to rot...

Also, the reason deep wound is so great for spiking is not because it can be remove or w/e, it is because it take out 20% of the buffer range for the target to survive.

For example, it only take one shot to spike a 100 hp target to death, but it would require 2 shots with 200 hp. The deep wound effect does exactly what a spike want, making the target have lower hp for the moment of the spike. If the spike is unsucessful, the deep wound effect doesnt really matter; all or nothing.

Obsidian flame is not impressive at all, just another single target damage dealing spell. The only reason you can at least see it a bit impressive is the fact... IT IS THE ONE OF THE ONLY FEW ELEMENTALIST SKILL THAT IS DECENT! >_< ( I still love my ele, i dont care...)

Last edited by Vermilion Okeanos; Jan 31, 2006 at 01:15 AM // 01:15..
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Old Jan 31, 2006, 01:24 AM // 01:24   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robster Lobster
Is there a bug with Deep Wound that keeps the damage on even after Deep Wound is removed?
No, but the point of a spike is that after it's done the target is dead; therefore, if the spike succeeds there is no chance to remove it and thus it is essentially 100+ free points of damage.
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Old Jan 31, 2006, 01:48 AM // 01:48   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Symbol
Yeah, but to be fair you comparison is to dual/savage w.o orders or to dual with dual orders.
Granted. However is it really fair to strip all context out of a discussion when talking about what skills are reasonably expected to do? For example Obsidian Flame versus Lightning Orb. Take all context away, and Orb deals 140 while Flame deals 118. They're at least comparable. But when you talk about what can be reasonably expect of each skill and the comparison falls apart. Orb as a projectile means it can miss, but even more simply it means it has a flight time which makes timing a spike more difficult. You have line-of-sight issues. Armor comes into play. Obsidian Flame is just plain better as a spike skill in practice and it's entirely context that shows you that.

You have to do the same thing when talking about what different classes can be expected to do. Sure it might seem unfair to compare a single Obsidian Flame to a buffed Ranger, but is it really unfair to do so? Elementalists *cannot* be buffed. It's a huge disadvantage of the class that you can't ignore. Should you be comparing the damage an unbuffable Elementalist can dish out to what a buff-friendly class can dish out without his buffs? Is that really an honest comparison of the two classes?

Honestly I feel that a comparison between Obsidian Flame and an unbuffed Dual Shot (a skill that is, bluntly, a buff multiplier) in a vacuum is a pointless exercise. You're not only removing any context about how those skills are actually used, but why what they can do would be useful in the first place. I mean a statement like "Obsidian Flame spike is better than Ranger spike because Obsidian Flame hits harder than Dual Shot in a vacuum" is retarded on so many levels that it's downright comical. If there's no useful information in a comparison why even make it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Symbol
For what it is obs flame is impressive.
Obsidian Flame is the hardest hitting self contained, one skill slot, unerring spike in the game. There is no argument that it is the king of its niche. My argument is that no one cares. How can Obsidian Flame be impressive when there are other characters and strategies that are simply stronger in its main role?

Or to really drive it home, no one is about to call Cleave impressive just because it's the best elite for a DPS Warrior. You can be good at what you do...but what you do has to be important in a wider view of the game.

Peace,
-CxE
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Old Jan 31, 2006, 03:43 AM // 03:43   #36
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A lot of people seem to be missing the point here. Heck, maybe I am to, but as I see it Ensign was trying to show that choosing an elementalist for damage was not the best choice you could make. He was not saying that the elementalist class was useless, or that you would never want one on your team, rather he was showing that if you need a damage dealer, you would be much better off choosing a warrior.

Lets say you are working on a build, and need a damage dealer. You want to use either an elementalist or a warrior, for some odd reason that I will leave up to you. While the elementalist is great at landing large single hits, he cannot follow up those hits quickly, nor can he cause a deep wound, nor can he maintain a high dps for very long with even the slightest disruption. By contrast, a warrior can spike with a deep wound (causing more total loss in overall health with one attack than an elementalist with one skill), can follow up the spike with quick attacks, and can maintain a good dps. Blind a warrior and it gets removed. Strip an attunement and an elementalist runs out of energy, nothing he can do but slow down his casting, and therefore lower his dps. The obvious choice here is to take the warrior.

That is not to say an elementalist cannot be effective, but he is not as effective as a warrior is in overall damage dealt. You won't find a warrior running around spamming heal party or dropping wards, but you very well could find an elementalist doing this, more effectivly than a warrior ever could. You just don't want to place your damage in the form of an elementalist because you will not be as effective as the warrior.

As to spiking, ele spike can be strong, but why do you think everyone who wants to spike runs ranger spike now, rather than air spike? Earth spike can kill just about any target, this is true, but ranger spike does that better also. No, even just by watching what everyone is running, it should start to be obvious that right now, damage elementalists don't fit in builds. This will probably not change without the introduction of new skills or the changing of current skills, so for now, grab that hammer.
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Old Jan 31, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12   #37
Symbol
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Granted. However is it really fair to strip all context out of a discussion when talking about what skills are reasonably expected to do? For example Obsidian Flame versus Lightning Orb. Take all context away, and Orb deals 140 while Flame deals 118. They're at least comparable. But when you talk about what can be reasonably expect of each skill and the comparison falls apart. Orb as a projectile means it can miss, but even more simply it means it has a flight time which makes timing a spike more difficult. You have line-of-sight issues. Armor comes into play. Obsidian Flame is just plain better as a spike skill in practice and it's entirely context that shows you that.
No, context is important. But it's also important to limit the scope of the discussion, or you'll never get anything done. In fact wasn't this the whole premise of the initial warrior/ele comparison? Comparing damage in a (near) vacuum?


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You have to do the same thing when talking about what different classes can be expected to do. Sure it might seem unfair to compare a single Obsidian Flame to a buffed Ranger, but is it really unfair to do so? Elementalists *cannot* be buffed. It's a huge disadvantage of the class that you can't ignore. Should you be comparing the damage an unbuffable Elementalist can dish out to what a buff-friendly class can dish out without his buffs? Is that really an honest comparison of the two classes?
But that's a disadvantage to the class. I'm not ignoring it. It's a fact, and it's a problem, and it effectively means that eles are second-rate damage dealers as a whole.

But I do think it's important to distinguish between self-buffs and buffs by other teammembers, because the latter opens up a whole can of worms when it comes to evaluating a skill's usefulness. It's one thing to say, "how useful is this skill when I need to devote one or two other slots on my bar to supporting it" and another to say "how useful is this skill when I have to devote another _person_ to supporting it".

Now I have a feeling that you're going to say, "GW is a team oriented game so you can't evaluate a skill's usefulness outside the context of a team build". And there's a lot of truth to that. But then to be consistent you have to admit that pretty much every skill outside of the ones used in the current FoTM in high level PvP (and I'm certainly not denying that they're likely to be the most efficient so far) is going to fall short.

I'm not willing to go that far. YMMV.

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Obsidian Flame is the hardest hitting self contained, one skill slot, unerring spike in the game. There is no argument that it is the king of its niche. My argument is that no one cares. How can Obsidian Flame be impressive when there are other characters and strategies that are simply stronger in its main role?
But your argument rests on the assumption that this is a really narrow niche. It isn't. The advantage of obs flame as a skill is just that, it's ONE skill that does a big chunk of unerring armor-ignoring damage. Earth eles already bring loads of utility to any team, if they also bring obs flame to the mix they can meaningfully contribute to a spike, use it to kill runners, etc.

My problem with your position is that there's no middle ground. Either a spike skill is the best when a team bases their entire spike strategy around it or it's pointless.

IMO I think a lot of a skill's usefulness comes from being bring value to a lot of different builds (both individual and team). That's why I think obs flame is impressive for what it is.

Last edited by Symbol; Jan 31, 2006 at 05:58 AM // 05:58..
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Old Jan 31, 2006, 05:34 AM // 05:34   #38
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Originally Posted by Banebow
He was not saying that the elementalist class was useless
Actually, if you read his post in the original thread that spawned this one, he said they (and necros) "pretty much suck".

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Originally Posted by Ensign
What if you get zeroed out by a Power Leak and have a Mind Wracker sitting on your face? What if you get a Migraine buried on you? What if a Ranger decides to make you his personal bitch?

What if is a fun but pointless game, don't you think?
Actually the quote you mentioned belonged to me, but with so many to respond to I can understand the misquote. (Sometimes I wish I didn't have so much 'help' .)

You do realise that dispite the fact you didn't use the words "what if", you were also playing the what if game, right? What if my Warrior can get to you instantly? What if my Mesmer charges into spell range of your casters? What if I can remove hexes/conditions as fast as you can pile them on? What if your Elementalist has no one backing him up while I get condition/hex removal?

You simply state these things as though they will certainly happen, but at the same time deny your enemy the same opportunity, while what I was suggesting happens in >66% of the battles you'd care to witness. I'd say that's at least equally useless.

At a certain point, we have to recognize that the metrics we use for one class (apples) don't apply equally to others (oranges). At a certain point, we have to work things out on the battlefield, and even with two such established classes, I don't think that's done yet. You and I have both been in this game for some time; how many battles have you seen that were hurt by having a 'Damage Elementalist' that would have been saved by having a Warrior instead? We've seen the battlefield change over the course of the last year (or so) and the balance has indeed shifted. Are you prepared to say that it is done shifting? ...That mathematics (not the guild by a long shot) has finally taken its glorious reign, and things are as they were meant to be?

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Originally Posted by Ensign
Want to know how long it takes for a Warrior to close from the edge of spellcasting range to Raging Your Face? Around 3.5 seconds. Without using a speed buff.
With a prepared spell caster, hitting you with a hex 2 seconds earlier (to account for casting time) and a cripple moments later? And (what the heck?)both of those do some damage? Now, truly as you said, if you didn't field a Warrior, I wouldn't be casting those spells, and could concentrate on other targets. Your team would be at a comparable disadvantage because of that. But I didn't know going into this battle that you wouldn't have Warriors, and these are therefore two wasted slots. Even with no Warriors on your team, the threat of warriors is potent enough to cause issues. That's two skill slots I'm not spending against your Elementalists.

Look, I'm not saying that an Elementalist is better than a Warrior, far from it. What I am saying is that you seem to be relegating E's to a tiny niche with about 10 good skills (tops), and I think that's harsh and unfair. There is some value in this game in doing what's unexpected, because that means unprepared for.

As regards 'Spike' and 'Deep Wound', this will shock no one, but it doesn't stack. Three Elementalists with O.F. do the full damage of the skill x 3. Three Warriors with Dismember do just 1 Deep Wound -- and it gets removed as easily as any other condition, so unless it's the last damage to a player, it is very virtual indeed.

Rangers and their spike potential is a whole 'nother thread. And since I play 3 Ranger or /Rangers, I'm far more likely to vote on that side of things.
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Old Jan 31, 2006, 06:03 AM // 06:03   #39
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This is unfortunately a very true story. The odd time that I play an "offensive" air elementalist, what do I find myself running? orb, strike, and a list of utility + energy management spells.

Who dishes out the damage? The warrior, of course. The mesmers and necros are there to soften up the enemy for the warrior to tear apart, and occasionally to try and stop the enemy warriors. The ele is there to aid the warrior in delivering that killing blow, the ranger is there to screw with the enemy and make them easier targets for the warrior. The monk is there to save his team from the enemy warrior and to pray to god that a loaded warrior doesn't get within 5 feet of him.

But ultimately, it's always the warrior that's running around deciding who lives and who dies. There are obvious exceptions (ranger spike, obsidian spike, some other gimmick spike), but in most builds you'll find the above to hold true.
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Old Jan 31, 2006, 06:40 AM // 06:40   #40
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From what I read he thinks elementalists are great but as Utility characters that can participate in the warriors adrenaline spikes. Not as primary damage dealers.

Most of us knew this but some didnt it seems, take a look at the air eles in gvg Blind, Blind, Orb, Strike, Blind, Ether Prodigy....
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