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Old Aug 24, 2008, 03:22 AM // 03:22   #81
Ensign
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I logged in for a bit today to play around with Shield Guardian a bit more. It's pretty terrible, I barely noticed the effect, and when things got hectic I never used it.

Shield Guardian is used as a substitute for RoF. The AoE heal is cute but doesn't matter most of the time, unless people are now balling up for AoE while I was away. Sometimes it helps, most of the time it doesn't matter. It blocks instead of prevents damage; the advantage of stopping an attack is diminished in PvE (as opposed to PvP where it's magnified by the ability to stop a KD, interrupt, etc), while not triggering on non-physical attacks matters more.

But that's a dumb argument, because why do you use RoF in the first place? The main purpose is as a fast response to buy time to resolve Word, or some other spell that'll actually solve the problem. Except you have Spirit Bond and the energy to mash it on recharge, so you never open with RoF or Shield Guardian into Spirit Bond; you open with Spirit Bond. It's basically pointless. Spirit Bond into Shield Guardian is terrible; the two skills have no synergy.

The place you'd use RoF then is when Spirit Bond is on its 2 second recharge. But you also have Infuse. So if there's an emergency and you have to cast a spell, you Infuse. Then you Spirit Bond.

You don't need a spammable spell in that slot, because you have Spirit Bond and Infuse which are both insanely spammable. You want a skill that gives a lot of bang for the cast that you can slip in while the others are recharging. There really isn't another prot; that's why I run Breath of the Great Dwarf as a freebie Heal Party to crank the power level up another notch - and hey, it heals for 60 too, just like that Shield Guardian would have!
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Old Aug 24, 2008, 05:51 AM // 05:51   #82
Shyft the Pyro
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Originally Posted by Ensign
Oh, and the reason most people don't run this sort of thing is probably very similar to the reasons why so many people run Defy Pain Warriors with Mending. You basically need to hand people a one button kill things skill ala Ursan Blessing to get them to run anything that isn't the stereotypical strategy from every other game remotely like this in the history of the world.
How about a "one button heal things" skill? Because we seem to have that covered:

[glyph of swiftness][ether renewal][aura of restoration][vigorous spirit][protective bond][life attunement][holy veil][infuse health]

(11+1+3 Energy Storage, 1+1 Air Magic, 10 Healing Prayers, 10 Protection Prayers)

With all of the enchantments up, each Infuse heals the caster for 166 + 55 + 21 = 242, which essentially means that a caster with 485 or less base health can spam Infuse without dropping below half base HP. Taking aftercast into account, this means that an Ether Renewal Infuser can heal for up to 300HP every second.

Now, I'm obviously happy my first ever elite is useful again, but if the above setup is not the healing equivalent of Ursan, I don't know what is.
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Old Aug 24, 2008, 10:59 AM // 10:59   #83
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I see all these builds with Glyph of Swiftness, but is it really needed?

Assuming you're running 15 ES and a 20%enchanting wep, there's only about 4-5 secs downtime, which is nothing. Considering that you get access to some powerful monk skills along with infinite energy to fuel them, I wouldn't waste skillspace just to cover a lousy 4-5 sec downtime.

I also wouldn't use Aura of Restoration if Infuse isn't on your bar - Just enchant yourself with your other skills and save space.

Last edited by Cathode_Reborn; Aug 24, 2008 at 11:03 AM // 11:03..
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Old Aug 24, 2008, 05:16 PM // 17:16   #84
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Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
I see all these builds with Glyph of Swiftness, but is it really needed?

Assuming you're running 15 ES and a 20%enchanting wep, there's only about 4-5 secs downtime, which is nothing. Considering that you get access to some powerful monk skills along with infinite energy to fuel them, I wouldn't waste skillspace just to cover a lousy 4-5 sec downtime.

I also wouldn't use Aura of Restoration if Infuse isn't on your bar - Just enchant yourself with your other skills and save space.
Doesn't 15ES and 20%enchanting only grant a 24s duration? With the 1s cast time, it is about 7s down time. I think GoS is worth it, unfortunately heroes dont always use that with ER.
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Old Aug 24, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11   #85
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Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
I see all these builds with Glyph of Swiftness, but is it really needed?

Assuming you're running 15 ES and a 20%enchanting wep, there's only about 4-5 secs downtime, which is nothing. Considering that you get access to some powerful monk skills along with infinite energy to fuel them, I wouldn't waste skillspace just to cover a lousy 4-5 sec downtime.

I also wouldn't use Aura of Restoration if Infuse isn't on your bar - Just enchant yourself with your other skills and save space.
[Glyph of Swiftness] = permanent [ether renewal]. Would you rather spam your spells 3/4 of the time or all the time?

Aura of Restoration gets too much hate. It is the perfect cover enchantment, with an insane duration, a low recharge, a near-instant cast, and an effect that the elementalist profession otherwise did not have prior to Glyph of Restoration and the un-nerfing of Ether Renewal. Any Ether Renewal build will benefit from it greatly, even if it's just on the level of not having to spend another second (aftercast included) to enchant yourself to power Ether Renewal when the same spell could have been used on the party.

Oh, and did I mention it's also linked to Energy Storage, the attrubute you're pumping up for [ether renewal]?
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Old Aug 24, 2008, 06:40 PM // 18:40   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
I see all these builds with Glyph of Swiftness, but is it really needed?
It's not strictly necessary, but it helps more than anything else I've tried in that slot. Ether Renewal going down hits your own durability hard, and makes Infuse very questionable. The bigger advantage of the Glyph is that you can pre-cast Ether Renewal when you have it on your bar, and don't have to worry about it dropping mid-fight when you're spamming Infuse. Without the Glyph I feel like I want to slow-roll the Ether Renewal more, and not put it up until I need to start working the health/energy.

If you think there's something better by all means take it. I find the faster Ether Renewal, plus the faster party heal and GDW/Prot Spirit to be worth more than whatever else would be there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
Assuming you're running 15 ES and a 20%enchanting wep
Don't be silly. No sup is 22 seconds, 9s downtime (or 8s if you don't count recasting Ether Renewal); sup is 24 seconds, 7/6s downtime. Glyph of Swiftness takes that away in either case. Even if I did run a sup on an Ether Renewal guy, which I wouldn't, it'd be to get more points in Protection and Healing.

But it isn't really about the downtime for me; you don't need the glyph to never stop casting. You can ride down your energy even during the downtime and go right back up when things are going well. It's more about the ability to precast it before every fight, and as resilience against it getting stripped mid-fight. If things go wrong I want to still have a big reserve of energy and a faster recharging Renewal, and not be riding the bottom hoping it'll stick so I can charge back up again.

Again, it isn't strictly necessary; but what's more essential? You already have everything you need to spam when things get hectic without using that slot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn
I also wouldn't use Aura of Restoration if Infuse isn't on your bar - Just enchant yourself with your other skills and save space.
Agree entirely. Aura of Restoration is really there to power the Infuse; without Infuse, you're better off grabbing Great Dwarf Armor or Vigorous Spirit in that slot.

Last edited by Ensign; Aug 24, 2008 at 06:44 PM // 18:44..
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Old Aug 24, 2008, 10:50 PM // 22:50   #87
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i think that most people who picked the elementalist class/profession had planned to spam damage dealing spells. As the sorceress in diablo 2 sorceror in diablo 1 mage in world of warcraft sorceror/wizard/mage in the Neverwinter nights/Baldurs gate games
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Old Aug 24, 2008, 10:57 PM // 22:57   #88
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Originally Posted by Tyla
[glyph of swiftness][ether renewal][shield guardian][life bond][vital blessing][holy veil][purifying veil][blinding flash]

Windborne Speed for Blinding Flash if you want to aid kiting, more specifically in HM. I'd have someone else taking things like Great Dwarf Weapon.

If I'm running a mainly defensive build, I'll run something that can be used more defensively.
So are you a believer in ER now? If I didn't convince you that it's a good alternative then I hope others have.
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Old Aug 24, 2008, 11:38 PM // 23:38   #89
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Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow
So are you a believer in ER now? If I didn't convince you that it's a good alternative then I hope others have.
by 'others' you mean ensign, right?
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Old Aug 24, 2008, 11:53 PM // 23:53   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow
So are you a believer in ER now? If I didn't convince you that it's a good alternative then I hope others have.
Where did I say anything on there about me using it over a Monk?

Where did I say it's not a good alternative?

As for potential, explain to me why people only used N/Rts over Monks or Ritualists on heroes instead of players when they have a Monk available pre-buff of ER?

/End.

Last edited by Tyla; Aug 24, 2008 at 11:56 PM // 23:56..
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Old Aug 25, 2008, 01:25 AM // 01:25   #91
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if there isn't excessive enchant removal in the zone ER eles are amazing, most damage isnt going to matter due to all the prots and then shield guardian and SB end up healing for a nice amount as well, along with that it has enough energy to maintain prot bond on several targets to make work even easier. Sure it doesn't have strong spot heals but you really don't need more than what the other monk can supply if you have an ER on the team. If a lot of the pressure comes from degen/hexes or theres enchant strip its not so great but otherwise I'd take one over a second monk in an instant.
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Old Aug 25, 2008, 06:05 AM // 06:05   #92
Perfected Shadow
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Originally Posted by Tyla
Where did I say anything on there about me using it over a Monk?
I was saying that it's a viable alternative or superior when comparing 2 monks vs. 1 monk + 1 ER. Where did I say anything about you using it over a monk?

Quote:
Where did I say it's not a good alternative?
When you said that DF/higher attributes prots and heals on 2 monk backlines
are more powerful. And implied by: "Where did I say anything on there about me using it over a Monk?"

Quote:
As for potential, explain to me why people only used N/Rts over Monks or Ritualists on heroes instead of players when they have a Monk available pre-buff of ER?
I don't understand your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lotus-
by 'others' you mean ensign, right?
I think Tyla still thinks a 2 monk backline is superior.
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Old Aug 25, 2008, 07:09 AM // 07:09   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow
I think Tyla still thinks a 2 monk backline is superior.
thats because it is...
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Old Aug 25, 2008, 07:25 AM // 07:25   #94
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ER Infuse > Monk WoH

any questions?
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Old Aug 25, 2008, 07:58 AM // 07:58   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hate brother
ER Infuse > Monk WoH

any questions?
yes, i have one: why? monks can provide all of the necessary healing and prot balanced on 2 characters.
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Old Aug 25, 2008, 08:51 AM // 08:51   #96
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Why run ER when monks alrdy work 100% fine? You get more out of monks and if you have 2 or more good monks in your guild that play a lot like TAM does there's not a real reason not to use monks over the ER build. Sure the ER may be fun to run in pugs or something when you need a change like the OP said but you also have to rely on a lot for this build to work imo but i dont want to say to much about it cause Ive yet to use this build myself but i think in a lot of areas this build may just fall flat on its face cause your have to rely on spamming to heal yourself and others.

but in the long run its PVE any thing works, so run w/e but imo monks still work better cause their skill bars are more open and they don't have to rely on any thing but the people their healing to kill stuff.
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Old Aug 25, 2008, 09:26 AM // 09:26   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow
I was saying that it's a viable alternative or superior when comparing 2 monks vs. 1 monk + 1 ER. Where did I say anything about you using it over a monk?
Actually, "believer in ER" implies that I believe ER > Monk. I have never once said it's not viable.


Quote:
When you said that DF/higher attributes prots and heals on 2 monk backlines
are more powerful. And implied by: "Where did I say anything on there about me using it over a Monk?"
More powerful, not non-viable.

Quote:
I don't understand your point.
Soul Reaping is an extremely powerful form of energy management in PvE.

If people didn't run N/Mo's over Mo/x's unless they don't have a Monk available or are using heroes, what makes you think that ER will change it?
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Old Aug 25, 2008, 12:40 PM // 12:40   #98
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I'm not saying that ER should replace all monks. I'm saying that an ER and monk is better than two monks on most cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lotus-
thats because it is...
I still can't see how. Vital Blessing on the whole party + SB/PS and GDW on recharge + another monk doing the heals/removals to me seems stronger. On areas with EXTREME enchant removal yeah monks would be better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDRyder
Why run ER when monks alrdy work 100% fine? You get more out of monks and if you have 2 or more good monks in your guild that play a lot like TAM does there's not a real reason not to use monks over the ER build.
GDW is the reason for me. How do you get more out of monks when ER can infuse and spam prot while the other backliner can purely heal? Well I'm sorry that my guild isn't TAM or have leet monks but ER covers that weakness since it's easier to play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
If people didn't run N/Mo's over Mo/x's unless they don't have a Monk available or are using heroes, what makes you think that ER will change it?
Of course they won't change, heck I've seen tigers still running Ursan post nerf solo. I'm just arguing on the forums for teh sake of arguing.

Last edited by Perfected Shadow; Aug 25, 2008 at 12:47 PM // 12:47..
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Old Aug 25, 2008, 12:55 PM // 12:55   #99
Tyla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfected Shadow
GDW is the reason for me. How do you get more out of monks when ER can infuse and spam prot while the other backliner can purely heal? Well I'm sorry that my guild isn't TAM or have leet monks but ER covers that weakness since it's easier to play.
Again, you don't always need the prot or heal. As for GDW, I would run it on something else like a Ranger or Necromancer.
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Old Aug 25, 2008, 02:46 PM // 14:46   #100
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Why GDW on a Ranger, can you explain Tyla? At 3 Energy regen it would look pretty difficult to afford using it often, or I'm missing something?
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