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Old Aug 31, 2008, 12:25 AM // 00:25   #221
JDRyder
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
Your post in an entirely different (also entirely true, I've done it before) view:

Orly? I do dungeons, vanquishes, Urgoz etc. with an Elementalist healer using Ether Prodigy as well and it certainly works. Elementalists are still better, just cause you can run a real Monk does make it better.

Hope you see how threadbare your post is.
umm no Any 1 that has played the game more than a month can run a monk well enough for elite areas. Playing monk is not hard in pve people just dont try.
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Old Aug 31, 2008, 12:43 AM // 00:43   #222
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Originally Posted by JDRyder
Playing monk is not hard in pve people just dont try.
its not that they dont try, they just dont think about their build so they run HB and shit like that.
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Old Aug 31, 2008, 04:28 AM // 04:28   #223
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Originally Posted by -Lotus-
its not that they dont try, they just dont think about their build so they run HB and shit like that.

[[healers boon] in the hands of a noob monk = decent monk
[[healers boon] in the hands of decent monk = leet monk
[[healers boon] in the hands of leet monk = uber monk
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Old Aug 31, 2008, 07:16 AM // 07:16   #224
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umm no Any 1 that has played the game more than a month can run a monk well enough for elite areas. Playing monk is not hard in pve people just dont try.
Don't see how your post is relevant to the topic at hand.

I did the UW NM earlier today, 4 humans, 4 heroes, Ensign build with my modified skill distribution and Convert Hexes in place of GDW. Between me and my partner we had no anti-conditions. Was pretty good a run actually considering that three of us were unfamiliar with the UW and the last was guiding us along. Screenshot available if anyone wants to see it. Migraine hurt my team's nukers more than me, I never lost Ether Renewal during crucial moments (more like Chained Souls popping up and Rending me when I'm wanding the Burrowers) and the greatest threat to party wipes we faced was heroes standing in Meteor Shower. I'd do the UW in HM but as I said before I usually can't find the teams.

Any other area you care to name?
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Old Aug 31, 2008, 10:17 AM // 10:17   #225
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Originally Posted by daze
[[healers boon] in the hands of a noob monk = noob monk
[[healers boon] in the hands of decent monk = noob monk
[[healers boon] in the hands of leet monk = noob monk
fixed HB is really bad

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
I did the UW NM earlier today,
STOP! Do it in HM then come back and talk to me about UW. TAM Does UW HM all the time with all types of builds, we know what we are talking about when it comes to Pve, and your going to tell us we are wrong when you have not even done HM UW?
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Old Aug 31, 2008, 11:50 AM // 11:50   #226
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I've not done HM UW, but so what? In spite of all your experience with PvE you're not able to come up with an area in which the ER build fails, and are reduced to personal attacks while flailing around avoiding my challenge.

Launch all the personal attacks you want, but until you come up with a concrete area which I can access easily, I'll conclude you're at your wit's end and ignore your posts.
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Old Aug 31, 2008, 04:54 PM // 16:54   #227
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
Launch all the personal attacks you want, but until you come up with a concrete area which I can access easily, I'll conclude you're at your wit's end and ignore your posts.
what are you talking about? "access easily"??? we're talking about elite areas. it's not our fault you have trouble finding a group. get a better guild. anything NM can be done with almost any build. we gave you concrete area. 90% of all PvE is easy, HM included. normal mode UW is a joke. i have two accounts, i can log into GW with both of those accounts at the same time, form a party with 1 character from each account, add 6 heroes, enter UW normal mode, map out with one of my characters, and clear everything except the 4 horsemen quest with ease. i can almost do that same thing in HM. UW normal mode is tougher than most places but it's still very easy. do a full DoA run, hell even FoW. but do it in HM. for us a bad FoW run in HM is 45-50 minutes. until you do that, i'll continue to say your ER spam build is inferior to a good monk, even though it may still be useful in other areas.
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Old Aug 31, 2008, 10:55 PM // 22:55   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
I've not done HM UW, but so what? In spite of all your experience with PvE you're not able to come up with an area in which the ER build fails, and are reduced to personal attacks while flailing around avoiding my challenge.

Launch all the personal attacks you want, but until you come up with a concrete area which I can access easily, I'll conclude you're at your wit's end and ignore your posts.
what personal attacks? and what challenge?

Its not that i cant come up with a ER build, I dont want to cause theres no point cause monks are better, Its like saying make a earth shaker ele and stop using a earth shaker warrior
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Old Sep 01, 2008, 12:31 AM // 00:31   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
[asuran scan][golden fox strike][golden fang strike][moebius strike][death blossom][critical agility][brawling headbutt][falling lotus strike]

[ebon battle standard of honor][golden fox strike][golden fang strike][moebius strike][death blossom][critical agility][brawling headbutt][falling lotus strike]

[avatar of melandru][draw conditions]["i am the strongest!"][wearying strike][eremite's attack][eternal aura][aura of holy might][resurrection signet]

[great dwarf weapon][remove hex][masochism][order of pain][dark fury][signet of removal][technobabble][blood renewal]

[word of healing][protective spirit][dwayna's kiss][cure hex][glyph of lesser energy][shield of absorption][aegis][shielding hands]

[anthem of weariness]["save yourselves!"]["there's nothing to fear!"][focused anger][signet of return][vicious attack][spear of fury][aggressive refrain]

[earth shaker][crude swing][whirlwind attack][crushing blow]["for great justice!"][lion's comfort][drunken master][death pact signet]

[offering of spirit][barbs][rigor mortis][mark of pain][splinter weapon][bloodsong][essence strike][ancestor's rage]

Anyway, tear it to shreds Moloch.
Well, I'm not going to tear it to shreds, it's a decent team build. However, some things to point out here:

[great dwarf weapon][remove hex][masochism][order of pain][dark fury][signet of removal][technobabble][blood renewal]

You are required to spend 24E every 6 seconds on this bar for your main job. Even a N with 13SR isn't going to manage this. It's going to be a sub-par use of GDW, or OoP, or DF, or all three. I strongly suggest that if you aren't sold on GDW, one reason is that you're bringing it on this character. It's also got a terrible health-deficit.

Considering that you have put quite a bit of your hex/condition removal on this character, you can't use an E/N. Otherwise, it could look something like this:

[build prof=e/n energy=12+1+1 blood=12][glyph of swiftness][ether renewal][order of pain][dark fury][great dwarf armor][great dwarf weapon][deep freeze][maelstrom][/build]

(Exact skills can vary, you could bring Blood Bond, Foul Feast or whatever you fancy. I like having a copy of DF and MS on my team.)

However, since you obviously wish to have your N in this type of support function, I would simply remove Dark Fury from the bar, switch the D to D/N and give the D Dark Fury and Foul Feast. Alternately put the Dark Fury on just about any other character (I know, 17% health on a D under Melandru isn't peanuts.) Remove Technobabble as well. More support skills could go into that bar, example:

[build prof=n/mo blood=12+1+1 soulr=10+1 prot=8][signet of removal][remove hex][guardian][dismiss condition][blood renewal][order of pain][masochism][great dwarf weapon][/build]

Regarding the eighth bar;

[offering of spirit][barbs][rigor mortis][mark of pain][splinter weapon][bloodsong][essence strike][ancestor's rage]

Yes, I agree with Chthon that you'd be better off with a dedicated Mark nuker.

[build prof=n/a curse=12+1+1 soul=10+1 deadl=8][barbs][mark of pain][rigor mortis][reckless haste][assassin's promise][ebon vanguard assassin support][finish him!][technobabble][/build]

If you feel you don't need Barbs (things die quick enough anyway) bring Mark of Fury instead.

You only have one SY on your team. This isn't good, and it's particularily not so good to have it on a midliner. One of the frontliners need it.

I'd consider bringing Breath of the Great Dwarf on both assassins. They won't need Brawling Headbutt, not with two GDW copies, and they're bathing in energy anyway. You also need one copy of Wild Strike on one assassin. (And yeah, the Falling skill really isn't too meaningful. These are possible candidates for the Dark Fury and SY.)

I'd consider running Air of Superiority on the paragon in order to recharge Focused and TNTF to hopefully allow 100% uptime.

Given this party setup, you could replace the monk with an E running this bar:

[build prof=E/Mo energy=12+1+1 prot=12 air=3+1][ether renewal][aura of restoration][glyph of swiftness][reverse hex][protective spirit][spirit bond][infuse health][great dwarf weapon][/build]

This would give you a robust GDW spammer. All emergency heals would be done with Infuse. Spirit Bond and Protective Spirit would be readily available for every party member. No condition removal but you have so much on the other characters anyway.

Anyway, that's just some quick thoughts.

Last edited by Moloch Vein; Sep 01, 2008 at 08:54 AM // 08:54..
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Old Sep 02, 2008, 01:21 AM // 01:21   #230
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moloch, i think you definitely know what you're talking about most of the time, but will have to disagree with a couple points this time.

first, you definitely know more about necros than i do, but with [[masochism] and 14 soul reaping, which is what we run i believe, the necro has never had E problems. of course he isn't spamming GDW either. he only uses it on the derv and para in this case since they are the only ones without an in-build KD. i like your ER blood ele, but the necro in this build is also the primary hex remover and if we used an ele, we would lose that ability.

the imbagon is the only SY and it works quite well. paragons are pretty much always the standard SY so i don't quite get how it could be bad there. he has to be close enough to the action to use his spear anyway so he should be within range of both frontliners and backliners. SY is his only adrenal skill so it is constantly ready upon recharge. i also like it much better on a midliner because he isn't directly in the melee. no point in having it on a frontliner when they will have the lowest armor after using it and be right in the thick of things. why take it on 2 players, when one can keep it up 100% of the time?

i like your necro sin. nothing better than constant MoP.

the ER spammer with SB and PS really fails in this build though. with SY constantly up, no one is taking that much damage. i've played the derv and monk in this build and others like it many times and even on my monk i rarely took a hit for over 60. SoA is the main prot in this build. PS is only there for the paragon who, due to [[aggressive refr], will constantly have cracked armor. SB will almost never trigger except on that same paragon and you don't need both SB and PS on him. also unless there is some large over aggro, there aren't many health spikes which would require infuse. WoH and DKiss more than cover it without the health sacrifice.

in all honesty, if i were to replace any character in this build with your ER spammer it would be the imbagon. s/he would have to spam ps and sb on everyone being hit, though, and we would lose the extra dps from the para but it could work. outside of bladed aatxes and high level, high damage bosses, PS and SB just don't synergize with SY. there may be a team build where the ER spammer is the "bread and butter" but i don't think it goes in this build very well at all.

meh, just my thoughts.

Last edited by joshuarodger; Sep 02, 2008 at 01:25 AM // 01:25..
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Old Sep 02, 2008, 04:21 AM // 04:21   #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
[asuran scan][golden fox strike][golden fang strike][moebius strike][death blossom][critical agility][brawling headbutt][falling lotus strike]

[ebon battle standard of honor][golden fox strike][golden fang strike][moebius strike][death blossom][critical agility][brawling headbutt][falling lotus strike]
Some humble thoughts on these...

[brawling headbutt][falling lotus strike] - it's nice to give them something to do with their adren, now they've got an Imbagon their SY! duties obviously unneeded, but for energy management (and keeping the chain going) [critical eye] would do better, I think. Now their secondary is free I'd suggest [grasping earth] (apart from the KD War and the odd GDW, no snares) on at least one of them.

Only one [rigor mortis] on a bar without [assassin's promise] means you'd benefit from [Wild Strike] over [golden fang strike] quite often - it's far less unwieldy and allows you to save Rigor for the real tough (Enchanted) nuts. Still leaves 3 (4? ) Deep Wounds in your team.
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Old Sep 03, 2008, 10:19 AM // 10:19   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshuarodger
what are you talking about? "access easily"??? we're talking about elite areas. it's not our fault you have trouble finding a group. get a better guild. anything NM can be done with almost any build. we gave you concrete area. 90% of all PvE is easy, HM included. normal mode UW is a joke. i have two accounts, i can log into GW with both of those accounts at the same time, form a party with 1 character from each account, add 6 heroes, enter UW normal mode, map out with one of my characters, and clear everything except the 4 horsemen quest with ease. i can almost do that same thing in HM. UW normal mode is tougher than most places but it's still very easy. do a full DoA run, hell even FoW. but do it in HM. for us a bad FoW run in HM is 45-50 minutes. until you do that, i'll continue to say your ER spam build is inferior to a good monk, even though it may still be useful in other areas.
Yeah, you gave me a concrete area ... except I should probably remind you that we got off on this tangent because you said anti-enchants own ER, and there is quite little anti-enchants in the UW.

I do not know enough people to put together highly organized teams that finish the UW in 11 minutes, and I do not care for how long it takes to finish the FoW HM. What I do care about is the build working and the party never wiping and the quests being done. In that I have increasingly great confidence in the build holding its own. I've now used the build over such a wide variety of areas that I don't think there's an area where it fails. At all. Even Nahpui Quarter HM, with numerous Turtles spamming Gaze of Contempt, ended with only one ER Gazed, nobody dying and an effortless Masters' (oh, and a lot of triggered Spirit Bonds).

I can certainly do the FoW HM with the ER build, but I can equally certainly say that you won't be convinced, so what's the point? Or heck, if I do the UW HM with the ER bar, will that change your mind?

@topic - a few more thoughts in general on the ER bar.

1. I'm thinking again about Great Dwarf Weapon. Splinter Weapon is another powerful weapon spell that is commonly used. Does it make sense to stack weapon spells in a party? Maybe, possibly not. Another support spell might be in order, although off the top of my head I'm not sure what (maybe You Move Like A Dwarf! or something).
2. Splitting some points to Smiting Prayers might be good: you get to use Judge's Insight, Zealot's Fire and Strength of Honor. You'd have to drop Aura of Restoration to work with Zealot's Fire but it's still usually enough, especially if your team is running stuff like Aegis or an Orders Necro. Still, with Energy Storage tying down 11 points already and Protection Prayers requiring a high amount too there probably is no room for this.
3. One curious aspect of Ether Renewal I never noticed until now is the ability to channel your energy to a Dervish's. Since you got infinite energy anyway, if nobody's getting hit and you see no need to preprot, go ahead and spam Shield Guardian / RoF / SB / PS on a Dervish. You fuel both Mysticism and Mystic Sweep. He won't need much Mysticism to be completely recharged by your spam.
4. Although I still have not tried it, I increasingly think the heal-based version of the bar significantly inferior to real Monks. A real Monk using HB + Heal Party can heal for 108 damage per Heal Party cast; with GoLE the amount of brute healing they output is superior to what the Elementalist can, unless HCT mods trigger very often. Besides, if the party requires nonstop healing it's already failed in the protting department. With party heals out of the window the only reason to use the heal-based Elementalist bar would be for straight healing not requiring Infuse, which means Heal Other + Infuse at most on the bar. I still hope to try it someday but I don't have much expectations.
5. Infuse Health is great. You counter Elementalist bosses dealing 400-damage Mind Burns much better than a real Monk can (and that's if you've not already managed to drop Protective Spirit on the target); you also manage to squeeze heals on overextending party members who haven't paid attention to the rest of the party's position. Shouldn't normally be using it though since the prots are so effective.

Have there been anyone else experimenting with the bar or am I doing this alone?
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Old Sep 03, 2008, 05:54 PM // 17:54   #233
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If you're not going for the most efficient build that will blow shit up in the most efficient way, then you shouldn't be posting.

Back to your regularly programmed flame war.
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Old Sep 04, 2008, 02:43 AM // 02:43   #234
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If you're using the most efficient build possible to clear the UW, you won't even be using Monks (real or Elementalist-based), so what's your point?
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Old Oct 18, 2008, 10:01 AM // 10:01   #235
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Updating this thread with insights since the past month.

My feelings about the ER Elementalist healer now is that he has some extremely strong strengths, but also some extremely glaring weaknesses. The biggest problems are the lack of party-wide healing, the fact that he needs to refresh ER every 20 seconds or so and the complete lack of anti-conditions and anti-hexes. The biggest strengths are the infinite energy and infinite prot spam, while still being able to use the most powerful single-target heal in the game (Infuse) with no drawbacks and support the team (Great Dwarf Weapon). Not many real Monks have room to add GDW to their bars, or the energy to cast it, but the ER Elementalist does.

With respect to the bars, Ensign's bar (repeating it here for those who might have missed it: Infuse Health, Spirit Bond, Protective Spirit, Breath of the Great Dwarf, Aura of Restoration, Ether Renewal, Greath Dwarf Weapon and Glyph of Swiftness; spec is variable but 13 Energy Storage and 4 Air, with at least 11 Protection Prayers and the rest into Healing Prayers) works very well for most areas. Sometimes you can improve the bar to counter the specific area (Convert Hexes for the Underworld for example), but untouched the bar works at least decently everywhere.

The ER Elementalist healer using the Ensign bar above best corresponds to a hybrid Heal + Prot Monk in typical teams. He can throw Infuse Healths every 3 seconds or so, but he cannot cope with widespread damage sufficient to force consecutive Infuses. Best paired I would say with a HB Monk (or a ER Heal Elementalist, below).

A few insights since the last month:

1. I've found that the most powerful enchantment you can maintain is Life Attunement. This skill, if kept on all the casters in the party (not physicals, of course), adds almost 50% to the efficiency of the other Monk at healing as well as fuels ER and heals you better after every Infuse. HB Monks using Heal Party suddenly get off 180+ heals (that's Heal Other on everyone in the party, quite fantastic). Especially if playing with heroes or henchmen I would recommend it.

Other enchantments to maintain not yet mentioned - there really is only one, that is Succor. The problem with Succor is that you can't put it on yourself, and when you want as many enchantments as possible it's probably not a good alternative.

2. What spell casts in 1/4 seconds, has no recharge, comes from either the Elementalist or Monk professions and is preferably an enchantment? Answer: Burning Speed. This skill is the ultimate spam skill for ER bars, and allows for heal-based versions of ER healing like this one:

Glyph of Swiftness
Ether Renewal
Mindbender
*Protective Bond*
Burning Speed
Heal Party
*Aegis*
Infuse Health

Spec is 4 Air, 8 Protection Prayers, 13 Energy Storage and 11 Healing Prayers.

Asterisked skills are optional. Protective Bond is actually maintainable with Burning Speed, at least in certain areas (not bunching in AoE helps a lot). Glyph of Swiftness ER (of course) and Mindbender if possible. Then spam Heal Party nonstop.

I still have to test bars like this one; I'm missing a +1 Air rune so I've not been able to try - but there's no reason think it won't work well.

3. Consumables makes ER bars work really well indeed. You no longer need to use Glyph of Swiftness before Ether Renewal (the downtime during which you cannot heal is smaller), your spells cast noticably faster (= more spam, as well as quicker 'recharge' on Infuse) and Infuse heals more thanks to your increased HP. Really well indeed.

4. Breath of the Great Dwarf is a debatable skill to use. If not running a maintained enchantment it's great to have. If you are though it does not recharge energy very fast or heal you very fast (for more Infuses), so it might be better dropped for Reversal of Fortune or Shield Guardian.

5. Some Ranger spirits really power ER bars. Quickening Zephyr, if kept up, allows the Elementalist to drop Glyph of Swiftness as well as to bring Breath of the Great Dwarf. Symbiosis is cute with ER; you easily overshoot 1000 HP and your Infuses heal for gross amounts. Earlier today I had Symbiosis + Life Attunement + consets, and I healed my ally for 995 HP per Infuse - way overkill of course, but heals of this magnitude pretty much fills out party bars with a lot to spare. Dwayna's Kiss synergizes nicely with Ether Renewal as well: Mhenlo's Dwayna's Kiss healed me for over 500 HP. Speak of efficiency - that's twice what WoH does.

6. ER Elementalists are robust and stable. I've now used ER through several tough areas like Vloxen's HM (did that with heroes / henchmen too), as well as played in teams with double ER Elementalists as backline. It works. Independently or as a group. ER Elementalists are not reliant on Imbagons or whatever; they function plenty well in practically any group. Those who say the build doesn't work, or those who say it is less effective than a real Monk, really need to at least try it before judging.
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Old Dec 15, 2010, 04:20 PM // 16:20   #236
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Just finished reading this old thread. Plenty amusing posts here.


Now, two years later, ER bars are quite optimised:



Infuse and Pbond is main bar in most builds. One ele with cons can bond a whole party.

Most people agree on that ERs are vastly superior to monks when it comes to raw power. SCers run ER bonders in UW (bad bar but still ER).

Nowadays I run these bars


Infuse
GDW
SB
Shield guardian -- dont like this one, but not much else to bring.
Life attune
Prot bond
ER
AoR -- dont like this either, but you get plenty health for infuse.


When I dont want to bond I run

Infuse
GDW
SB
PS
ele lord
Life attune
ER
AoR


Lazy but comfy bar. If you need cleaning bring draw condis.


Eles do still not use ER bars though. Its more accepted, but rare.
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Old Dec 16, 2010, 08:13 AM // 08:13   #237
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Funny how stubborn people are and the lack of any actual evidence in their arguments.
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Old Dec 16, 2010, 11:14 AM // 11:14   #238
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Two year resurrect? Please read the date of last post next time..
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