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Old Feb 13, 2012, 01:32 PM // 13:32   #1
Jeydra
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Default When Kappa Attack HM

For some reason I've not seen any discussion about this mission, which ought to imply that it's easy, but for some other reason I can't do it. I must've tried like 15 times by now, and although I like to think I'm making progress, the end result is the same: I wipe. The last time I felt like this, I was grinding away at UW HM.

The first spawn is not difficult. The second spawn was difficult for a while but once I figured out some tactics for it (make a physical spirit wall) it's now easily doable. The third spawn is the one I can't get past at the moment. The Kappa come in big numbers, are mass casters (lol @ ANet for doing this), deal big pressure and come in multiple directions. The "multiple directions" part is the killer one. I should have no difficulty handling the damage if they came only from one direction like the second spawn, but coming from multiple directions means I can't set up spirits the same way I do at the second spawn (there's not enough time to micro) and can't flag heroes apart easily either. It doesn't help that the Kappa have outright counters to meta builds (Verata's Aura + Signet of Binding can go die in a fire), yet those meta builds are just too strong to give up.

Has anyone done this mission 7H no cons?

PS: Some funny stuff from the Wiki discussion page.

Quote:
Level 15 enemies could be so annoying. I think I may postpone this HM equivalent. - Infinite - talk 22:36, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Agree. My elite HM party was beaten by four lvl 15 kappas - wtf I said to myself and ... this quest is not worth to the reward... The End...--85.70.111.26 18:34, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Then that party of yours isn't as elite as you think it is I guess -- Magamdy 19:33, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
A bit further down ...

Quote:
anyone finished this in HM? Im having real trouble on the 2nd spot during the cleansing. have been trying different builds and positionings, but they keep overwehlming me. Tommaso 23:07, 9 July 2011 (UTC)Tommaso

Lol I can't even survive the first spot :\ -- Magamdy 16:02, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
More about elite HM parties ...

Quote:
I've failed at this on HM about twenty times now. Same hero build that finished Duncan HM, Vanqs, DoA (all without consumables) and I can't do this will full cons, summons, etc. It's VERY hard and I think it needs a proper full-human team. First spot is incredibly easy, second spot gets me 90% of the time. Even SY! spam doesn't help... St Lucretia 23:18, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
Lol
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Old Feb 13, 2012, 03:07 PM // 15:07   #2
Gabs88
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In other words:

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles > Jeydra

It's nothing strange about that xD (Quest is inspired by them)
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Old Feb 13, 2012, 03:58 PM // 15:58   #3
Gill Halendt
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There was some talk about this mission when Pt1 was released.

You're not alone, and I believe this quest was also left unaltered by the latest update that rebalanced several HM quests in WoC.

I couldn't beat it without consets and PvE-only skills. Sort of against my principles, but I was so fed up with this quest I gave up and helped myself.
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Old Feb 13, 2012, 04:01 PM // 16:01   #4
Tom Swift
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yeah - same here.

I died about 10 times. Didn't matter what builds I used. I finally got so mad I just gave up and used a full conset plus wik summoning horn. Frankly, if the ele update made any of these kappa stronger I don't even want to think about this quest again. Just glad it's done.
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Old Feb 13, 2012, 04:21 PM // 16:21   #5
Coast
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they should be stronger now p
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Old Feb 13, 2012, 04:46 PM // 16:46   #6
Vernphos
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I wiped twice at the second spot in NORMAL mode...

Looked at the reward, said "meh" not worth it and deleted the quest.

Along the same lines, tried Rescue at Minister Cho's in HM last night. About 30 minutes in and only 10% done, I looked at the reward and said "meh" and deleted it.

Its not worth the grind. DoA is easier...
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Old Feb 13, 2012, 06:24 PM // 18:24   #7
Hephaestus Ram
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I feel a little better about not have been able to complete it yet.

Being the only quest in the entire series that I've failed to
complete in HM, I though I was just wimping out by putting it on
the back burner.

Don't know how many times I've tried and failed... very frustrating!

It's looking like I'll wind up pulling out all the stops and using
every resource the game allows me to get it done. I too prefer to
play without cons and such, but am also aware that they put them
in the game to be used if needed, so don't want to be totally anal
about not using them.
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Old Feb 13, 2012, 07:11 PM // 19:11   #8
Cuilan
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I'd also be interested in knowing what someone did to beat this in hard mode without cons. Unable to myself as well.
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Old Feb 13, 2012, 09:31 PM // 21:31   #9
snowman relic
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Personally I haven't tried it yet but looking at the wiki page it seems they are just making it more balanced, its no longer a time when we can just run out with 4 necros and 4 mesmers and kill everything, every profession will find its place.
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Old Feb 13, 2012, 09:56 PM // 21:56   #10
Reformed
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I pulled it off before the changes to HM as both a necro and a sin 7h with no cons. Not sure if it would be easier or harder today so am uncertain if it's really relevant. The reason you don't hear anything about this quest is that it's purely optional.
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Old Feb 13, 2012, 11:22 PM // 23:22   #11
Jeydra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed View Post
I pulled it off before the changes to HM as both a necro and a sin 7h with no cons. Not sure if it would be easier or harder today so am uncertain if it's really relevant. The reason you don't hear anything about this quest is that it's purely optional.
What builds did you use? The quest's certainly gotten harder thanks to the update to Thunderclap and Double Dragon, so that could be a factor.

I think admitting that the quest can't be done without consumables is taking the easy way out. The Kappa come in big numbers, but they die fast too. Certainly when I wipe it's not because I can't kill them fast enough, but rather because I can't take the pressure. There is a way to do it, I just need to find it.
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Old Feb 14, 2012, 12:35 AM // 00:35   #12
Reformed
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I went with a double panic mesmer under micro so you can get both sides of the waves in the third spot at once. Standard SoS, ST with muddy terrain on micro, UA, AotL and a Xinrae nec. Sin was a run of the mill dagger spammer with scan to bypass the cheap blurred vision spam. Nec was a run of the mill SS. Of the two in my opinion melee had it a lot easier. Oroku actually did make a halfway decent "tank" to help ball sides if you kept prots on him for the original. Mouse over on 1 was not intentional on the screen...

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Old Feb 14, 2012, 02:07 AM // 02:07   #13
SongOf
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Post the build you're failing with if you want some advice.

Otherwise to answer your question, it's simply 'Yes'.
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Old Feb 14, 2012, 05:39 AM // 05:39   #14
Kunder
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Did it on my Derv character that I did all WoC stuff on.

Fairly standard party lineup, nothing special IMO. 2x MM 2x Rit 2x Mesmer 1x Monk. MMs were both AoTL/Curse I believe (may have been AotL/Prot, but I think I was abusing MoP), Rits were both Channeling/restoration, Mesmers were 1x Panic and 1x Keystone/smite, Monk was Healing Burst.

I ran a fairly standard VoS build (abusing SY in this instance). Only special thing I did to my build was add Ebon Escape for easy movement around the battlefield. Minions spread out ->instant teleport to wherever the best AoE spike point is.

No cons needed, no special aggro tactics needed, no deaths throughout the whole thing.

I can definitely see the DD casters shredding minions if I did it after the ele update though. I'm also not sure how you would approach it as a caster. Not having SY available makes you heavily gimped in defense. Minions alone can't block, ST rits will fall under sustained pressure from AoE foes, and there are too many sides for individual prots to work. ER ele is the only real defensive option that stands a chance, but I think that would gimp your damage output too much to destroy waves fast enough.

Of course, I'm sure there are aggro tricks and splitting tricks that can be used to make it much easier overall. Never tried to do that on the 3rd mission, simply powering through it with Dervness was my solution.

EDIT: How did the armor update affect these guys? It was determined that HM enemies got reduced to NM-level armors. Given that the NM enemies were lvl 15 and standard armor, did the lvl 25 HM enemies get reduced to lvl 20 armor (or even lvl 15)?

Last edited by Kunder; Feb 14, 2012 at 05:48 AM // 05:48..
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Old Feb 14, 2012, 05:57 AM // 05:57   #15
Hephaestus Ram
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
What builds did you use? The quest's certainly gotten harder thanks to the update to Thunderclap and Double Dragon, so that could be a factor.

I think admitting that the quest can't be done without consumables is taking the easy way out. The Kappa come in big numbers, but they die fast too. Certainly when I wipe it's not because I can't kill them fast enough, but rather because I can't take the pressure. There is a way to do it, I just need to find it.
I agree. con's are a cop out. I've done When Kappa attack dozens of times,
and I'll do it dozens of times more before I resort to cons. But in the end
I will get it done.

I've done every area in the game, but assuming that just because the game
developers designed it, it must be do-able is flawed thinking.

There's no assurance that "they've" ever actually played through an area
just because they created it. I serously doubt that they've ever played
through ... for instance ...Minister Cho's after WoC. It's doable... but
hard beyond all reason. The developers never actually played through it
or they'd know that.
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Old Feb 14, 2012, 06:27 AM // 06:27   #16
Chthon
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Gave few tries with my necro when part 2 was launched, got close a couple of times, then forgot about it. Really wishing I hadn't, since it's much harder now, between the buffed ele elites and all of that armor-ignoring damage my necro can do getting nerfed.

May have to break down and use cons.
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Old Feb 14, 2012, 06:36 AM // 06:36   #17
Life Bringing
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Anyone tried muddy terrain and barbed trap yet? Lol
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Old Feb 14, 2012, 01:18 PM // 13:18   #18
Jeydra
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SongOf View Post
Post the build you're failing with if you want some advice.

Otherwise to answer your question, it's simply 'Yes'.
Since you ask, this is the last iteration I tried.

Did not work.

[/URL]
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Old Feb 14, 2012, 10:03 PM // 22:03   #19
Kunder
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Tried it twice my mesmer, got it the second time. Definitely much harder than physical was. Interestingly enough I didn't find the ele elites to make it much harder at all, though that was partially thanks to my build.

I went with 2x MM, 1x SoS, 1x SoGM, 1x Panic, 1x FD, 1x HB monk.

I did run EoE on the SoGM as Reformed did, but found muddy terrain useless. Instead I used Nature's Renewal, which pushes DD to a massive cast time and also counteracts a lot of other annoying crap (especially with Dazed working alongside it). The only Hex or Enchantment I use that is substantially affected by NR is Painful Bond, but thats definitely outweighed by the benefit. Otherwise, fairly standard builds on the rest of the team.

Myself I was an AP, for obvious reasons. Snow Storm/EVAS/FH as my PvE skills.

As with all defensive battles it's very important to make sure you kill everything ASAP, which is a point I think a lot of players miss since in normal guild wars you can patiently wait around while enemies die. Handing things correctly required a ton of micro and situational awareness.

For the most part, I tried to go by a simple semi-split strategy. Not really technically a split, but focusing certain elements of the group in tandem that work well together. Panic + Spirits can hold against most single waves. About 1/2 to 3/4ths of the minions + FD dazing shit can hold against their own (bad luck vs Blurred Vison will make the battle a standstill though). Everything else has to be handled without those, and you need to clean it up quickly to double back and help the other elements.

If you make sure to micro things properly so that your resources aren't being wasted, e.g. wasting the FD and Panic on the same group causing lack of interruption elsewhere, or wasting minions and spirits on the same group causing minions to waste 10s running to the other side, things aren't TOO bad. There isn't much room for error though. If you fall at all behind in your rate of killing there is absolutely nothing at all that can save you. Keep in mind that you also still need to micro spirit and hero placement so they aren't all stacked and nuked, so you got your work cut out for you.

Really, if you have problems with it just find a ranger or paragon buddy and ask them to run SY. Its far easier. Normally I make fun of people who can't do PvE stuff without multiple PvE-abusing characters, but I'll let them off the hook on this challenge. Cons are still for the weaklings though.


Also, FWIW, the HM armor update definitely nerfed their armor substantially. These guys are entirely 60 AL, break out the armor affected damage! If I did it again I would consider straight up abusing 2x Snow Storm + EBSoH, Snow Storm alone was pumping out serious damage. Ele nukers, VoS/HB physicals, and minions also murder these guys as fast as you can blink.

Last edited by Kunder; Feb 14, 2012 at 10:28 PM // 22:28..
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Old Feb 14, 2012, 11:16 PM // 23:16   #20
Jeydra
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Got a screenshot with exact builds?
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