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Old Apr 03, 2007, 06:45 PM // 18:45   #41
SotiCoto
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Direct boss-style..... well firstly it depends which version of Varesh you're talking about.
Paragon Varesh is all but useless without peons... Dervish Varesh is rather more dangerous on her own...

Overall though...
Shiro would win without a doubt.

The Lich is a complete pushover on his own, and without lava to dunk you in there isn't much he can do. Sure, he has to be killed a few times in certain ways.... but it was never difficult to do that. Heck... the Lich would lose against Mungri Magicbox and his crew!

Varesh is somewhat tougher and actually has quite a few peons in her fighting set-up WITH her.... but she personally gets weaker in Paragon form... and while she is a bit tougher than the Lich she hasn't really got much.

Shiro is a blatant death-machine and couldn't hide it if he tried. His ability to heal himself at the expense of others is far beyond the Lich and Varesh combined... plus he can banish to the mists...


Now if you're counting armies.... that might be a different matter.

The Lich has the Undead and the Titans... and while the Undead are piss-poor, the Titans can be rather tougher. Pity they aren't quite as many in number as.....

Varesh's Margonites.... I mean she has plenty of Kournans to spare too. Neither are particularly strong... but there are absolutely tons of them. Let us not forget the torment-creatures and stuff. Nasty.

Shiro has his Shiro'ken and the Afflicted. His ken are quite nasty... especially the monks and elementalists... but on the whole they aren't too tough to deal with (just a bit tougher than margonites). The afflicted on the other hand may be weaker... but they have the plague-spreading effect on their side, not to mention the soul explosions.


My thoughts on an army-battle?

First things first.... the Kournans would end up infected by the Afflicted plague... and quickly switch over to Shiro's side. The Margonites alone would quickly be wiped out and Varesh would go down swiftly...
The undead would probably not last long... though they couldn't be infected. Chances are just being too near the fire-based titans would burn them up initially. The Shiro'ken would definitely cut them down.
The Shiro'ken would lose against the Titans in a direct battle... and though they would have larger numbers and take a chunk out of the titan force, they would probably fall first. The Afflicted would do well enough against the fire-based titans since the soul explosion does cold damage and there would be LOADS of them after taking the Kournan soldiers as well. They wouldn't do squat against the Ice Titans though.... which I suspect would be the last things left on the battlefield. I've seen what Ice Titans get like when you break them down enough, and if you have enough of those little bastards around, there is nothing they can't overpower through sheer tenacity...

So in the end.... the Lich would win the war on the basis of Ice Titans alone. I hate those bastards.

Then again.... if Shiro got his hands on the Scepter of Orr....... he would probably break it by accident. If Varesh got HER hands on it though.... then she would win most likely.
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Old Apr 04, 2007, 12:17 AM // 00:17   #42
ensoriki
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Meh depends on timing
Varesh is nothing until shes actually Touched deeply by abbadon (when you fight her). So she has to be at that point or shes just a kournan...

Lich without scepter of Orr he has no titans.... Without the Titans he could never beat shiro's army.

Shiro- as a ghoul he would just 1hko varesh and send her to the mists
He could just assasinate the Lich.
As Human if the 2 ganged up on him Lich would go down like better but come back, Shiro can easily 1 on 1 both.

Shiro's army is almost endless as long as their is a supply of humans OR animals. Lich can remake the dead afflicted but he has to be near by to animate in which case Shiro would kill him.
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Old Apr 04, 2007, 03:30 AM // 03:30   #43
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I was thinking how did the Oddbodies survive from Shiro's ambush, none of them had face him before...
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Old Apr 04, 2007, 09:17 AM // 09:17   #44
Sophitia Leafblade
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im not quite sure which ambush ur talking about, but as far as i know the Oddbodies are already dead hence why their are in the Realm of Torment.
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Old Apr 04, 2007, 09:50 AM // 09:50   #45
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In any case.... Shiro wins for sheer brawn from any direction.
He loses for brainpower.

Varesh's battle was only difficult because she has so many minions in with her (and allegedly she used to be much easier, but has been made tougher)...

The Lich wasn't difficult to beat at all... A complete walk in the park.... What made -his- fight annoying was that it was at the end of a long trek through hoardes of burning titans... (I'm talking about the original; not the Nightfall version)...
Shiro fights solo (apart from the odd construct from banishing someone to the mists)... and can still totally wreck my group half of the time...
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Old Apr 05, 2007, 12:38 AM // 00:38   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SotiCoto
I've seen what Ice Titans get like when you break them down enough, and if you have enough of those little bastards around, there is nothing they can't overpower through sheer tenacity
Pre-Nerf 600 hp spellbreaker monk with a QZ ranger?
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Old Apr 05, 2007, 09:49 AM // 09:49   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craero
Pre-Nerf 600 hp spellbreaker monk with a QZ ranger?
I seem to recall a particularly nasty Frost Titan necromancer boss... who would have been easy to beat if we'd only had the Icy Brutes and Dark Titans around him.... but everyone went for different enemies at the same time, and soon the entire battlefield was swarming with Titan's Malices (throwing backfire around) and Titan's Hearts (keeping all Titans well-healed).
They managed to shut down two SS necros, the elementalist and eventually the entire party.

I'm fairly sure I'm not just imagining this... but I recall the Titan's Malices spawning from Dark Titans as well as Frost Titans... which makes for a lot more than we started with.
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Old Apr 05, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophitia Leafblade
im not quite sure which ambush ur talking about, but as far as i know the Oddbodies are already dead hence why their are in the Realm of Torment.
ntermediate Dialogue (Thenemi)
The"Into the fire" quest
"<character name>! I never thought I'd see a friendly face again... even one as ugly as yours. How terrifying it is to be stranded out here alone! The Oddbodies were ambushed! We were set up! They knew where we were headed. They were waiting for us! That new general of Abaddon's... the one they call Shiro... ambushed us. The others were scattered. You must help me find them... if any still survive. Oh, poo!"

And I don't think they can not be killed.
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Old Apr 06, 2007, 02:29 PM // 14:29   #49
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Shiro wins without a doubt. I'd like to see Mallyx in the fight though.
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Old Apr 06, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26   #50
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Speaking about ingame power, I think the Lich would wind up at the bottom of the pile. I used to do Hell's Precipice just for fun - I didn't mind having to fight the Lich over and over again. All he does is pop you in the lava and respawn, mostly... you have to kill him 3 times I think.

I'm not sure if it's Shiro or Varesh that was harder to kill. In the Imperial Sanctum mission, Shiro had to banish your team to add monsters to his side. In Ruins of Morah, the torment creatures respawn. But my brother and I managed to demolish Shiro in 2 and a half minutes with Heroes and Henchmen... On our third try. It took me at least six tries before I could kill Varesh's first form, and another three before I could take her down completely... But yes Varesh's first form is more dangerous, because her other one relies on you aggro'ing the torment mobs. So based on ingame power I think Varesh wins.

Lore-wise, though, I think it would be a little different. Remember, Shiro is/was a mental case. He had that creepy old woman's voice haunting him. They might impair his judgement, making him do stupid decisions. The Lich isn't that powerful on his own.. he has to rely on his armies to do the dirty work. Varesh is a little, um, fanatical? Lol.

If what the guy said about the Afflicted turning stuff they killed into more afflicted, and Varesh's Kournan army going down first, I think I've found a counterpoint. Unlike the Lich's undead armies, humans can learn. They'll see a few of their buddies die, and become afflicted, and learn to take them on from long distance. The undead will keep on fighting... unless the Lich stops them if he can. Remember, Glint stole the Scepter... so the Lich can't get it back.

The Afflicted might be able to spawn more when they kill stuff, but the torment creatures have "Call to the Torment." Assuming this is lore-based, they can just keep calling more and more until they have a huge army - and I don't think Torment creatures can become afflicted. So basically Varesh has a potentially infinite army at her command. Still, the Lich could probably raise up undead from all the corpses... which means that if Varesh has an infinite army, the Lich could exploit it, and potentially have his own infinite army. I don't think Afflicted can spawn out of undead... so Shiro would be at a disadvantage here I think, because with the Kournans staying well out of reach and the Torment creatures not being able to be Afflicted, he would run out of things to Afflict. He'd have his Shiro'ken and a finite number of Afflicted. If the Lich was smart (which he probably is) he could join up with Varesh to smash Shiro's army, and backstab her later. Or Varesh could ally with the Lich and betray him later. Still, I think Varesh is the winner here.

One last point. Abaddon had to force Shiro and the Lich to do his will, but Varesh went willingly - probably gaining some of his favor as well.

And IMO, Varesh should win. Girl power
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Old Apr 06, 2007, 08:31 PM // 20:31   #51
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Varesh's skill is nasty for players but not to bosses. Do not forget in the Imperial Sanctum mission all of your team will get special skills.
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