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Old Jul 27, 2012, 06:47 PM // 18:47   #1
Drk Dervish
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Default Staff vs 40/40 for mes

I notice most build and in pvx always recommend the use of 40/40 set. Which is true for 90% of the time. Below are some simple statistical calculation between the two, base on general Mes damage bar build.

Thank for all the good feedback, I redone the comparison chart and took the less bias view. This i just raw data comparison with a handful of different setup you can have (not all possible combination but if you like you can do it yourself). The base comparison is off a 40/40 platform. I'm not going to debate which on is better or worst just raw data for the public.


Last edited by Drk Dervish; Jul 31, 2012 at 09:54 PM // 21:54..
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 07:03 PM // 19:03   #2
Relyk
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I tend to sit on a defensive set, carry two fans, or punch stuff with my fists. That said, using 40/40 will give a higher average cooldown reduction than a staff. Since you don't really mix attributes on a Mesmer, a staff would only be advantageous for Pain Inverter and other PvE skills. Remember to carry a hammer if you run Keystone Signet Mesmer.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 07:08 PM // 19:08   #3
Drk Dervish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Relyk View Post
I tend to sit on a defensive set, carry two fans, or punch stuff with my fists. That said, using 40/40 will give a higher average cooldown reduction than a staff. Since you don't really mix attributes on a Mesmer, a staff would only be advantageous for Pain Inverter and other PvE skills. Remember to carry a hammer if you run Keystone Signet Mesmer.
Please explain what do you mean by "using 40/40 will give a higher average cooldown reduction than a staff." Base on average their really much the same, useless there other factor I'm not aware of.

But I get your point about hammer with keystone as energy isn't a main issue for that bar, and HSR on staff isn't use either. I guess I should say in your general Dom/Ill/FC bar, and especially for hero.

Last edited by Drk Dervish; Jul 27, 2012 at 07:22 PM // 19:22..
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 07:38 PM // 19:38   #4
lordtom
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I generally dislike Wand/Focus sets somehow. I'd deffo use a staff or even a spear/shield/focus, or a sword/shield/focus before wand stuff, but since mesmer is the only profession I haven't got besides para, I don't. 40/40 can be really good on some occassions though.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:13 PM // 21:13   #5
Relyk
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Originally Posted by Drk Dervish View Post
Please explain what do you mean by "using 40/40 will give a higher average cooldown reduction than a staff." Base on average their really much the same, useless there other factor I'm not aware of.

But I get your point about hammer with keystone as energy isn't a main issue for that bar, and HSR on staff isn't use either. I guess I should say in your general Dom/Ill/FC bar, and especially for hero.
The hammer was sarcasm, staff or 40/40 is superfluous for signets. 40/40 set gives you the extra 20% HSR, hence higher average cooldown reduction.
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Old Jul 27, 2012, 09:35 PM // 21:35   #6
Drk Dervish
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I take you did took a look at my statistical average calculation and calculation of 40/40 in wiki correct. Additional 20% doesn't mean 20% more trigger chance. Base on average it's only ~0.5 to 1% (it's like 10-20 ms per a 2 sec spell I doubtful if anyone is that good to notice) more reduction time over staff with +1 more FC. For non primary line spell its drop well below from staff ~5-10% (100ms - 200ms for 2 sec spell which still not much but there are noticeable)

However number is number and your correct 0.5% ~ 1% still can consider a "higher rate", which I did put as a Pro in my comment. But the benefit in gaining this ~0.5-1% in comparison to all the other options and benefit you can get from a staff will it's a hard bargain to push at every level.

Last edited by Drk Dervish; Jul 27, 2012 at 10:21 PM // 22:21..
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Old Jul 28, 2012, 03:53 AM // 03:53   #7
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I didn't see the relevant math about the difference, you just gave an equation and numbers without explaining it ^^. You'll have to elaborate more to convince me it's an insignificant difference.
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Old Jul 28, 2012, 04:49 AM // 04:49   #8
Drk Dervish
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Originally Posted by Relyk View Post
I didn't see the relevant math about the difference, you just gave an equation and numbers without explaining it ^^. You'll have to elaborate more to convince me it's an insignificant difference.
Can't be that bad the your average overtime reduction of casting or recharge is just chance of Weap set x reduction rate (which is 50%). All other chance which does not get trigger will go back to reduction rate per FC point.

As for how I get 36% chance of trigger rate for 40/40 set that one is on wiki, and the math is correct not going to explain it here (just basic statistical average). The other time that don't get trigger of course is 100%-36% = 64%.

By adding both of these two number together get you average reduction rate. Let take a example casting 100 spells with 1s casting and 1s recharge time.

36% or 36 spell will trigger HCT so 36 of those spell will cast total under 18 sec via 36 sec. The rest 64 spell will fall back to FC so ie FC at 9 reduction is by 34% so 64x34% = reduction of 21.76 sec. So the total of those 64 spell will be 42.24 sec.

So total time for all 100 spell is 18 sec + 42.24 sec = 60.24 sec. The original time will be 100 sec so it got reduce by 39.76 sec or 39.76% per spell. Same calculation is done with HSR.

Take those number and compare to the reduction number from what you can get from staff its pretty much the same value, except for staff there other extra bonus you can't get from a 40/40 as explained.

Last edited by Drk Dervish; Jul 28, 2012 at 04:57 AM // 04:57..
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Old Jul 28, 2012, 06:33 AM // 06:33   #9
hirush
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I don't know what example of staff you're comparing to. Are you comparing 40/40 wand/focus to 40/20 staff, or 20/20 staff as in the picture? There are variables such as some important skills that could get cast faster/more due to higher HCT/HSR like elite spell and key spells. The more elite spell get cast faster/more, there are still another chance of 50% HCT and HSR reduction could apply.

IMO, we should look into within a certain period of time, how many spells memser can cast, instead of compressing down in 100 spells test you brought up. And we cannot assume there is only one spell. We factor in elite spell and other spells in the mix.

And, it's a simple math, 36% HCT/HSR is always better than 20% HCT/HSR if FC rank are the same. 36% translates into 1 out of 3 spell get 50% reduction in castig/recharge. 20% is 1 out of 5 spell get 50% reduction in castig/recharge.

Running 40/40 is being optimistic, except mesmer has invested in very high rank FC ie. rank 15, then there is no need for 40/40.

IMO a whole calculation side by side between 40/40 and staff (indicate what mods on staff), and present those numbers in a more understandable format is more appealing. The pictures in your original post is not easy to understand.

Last edited by hirush; Jul 28, 2012 at 11:24 AM // 11:24..
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Old Jul 28, 2012, 08:50 AM // 08:50   #10
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Few if any builds actually require a 40/40 set. A staff modded properly will be just fine (and can be advantageous for certain builds as well).
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Old Jul 28, 2012, 02:37 PM // 14:37   #11
Drk Dervish
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Originally Posted by hirush View Post
I don't know what example of staff you're comparing to. Are you comparing 40/40 wand/focus to 40/20 staff, or 20/20 staff as in the picture? There are variables such as some important skills that could get cast faster/more due to higher HCT/HSR like elite spell and key spells. The more elite spell get cast faster/more, there are still another chance of 50% HCT and HSR reduction could apply.

IMO, we should look into within a certain period of time, how many spells memser can cast, instead of compressing down in 100 spells test you brought up. And we cannot assume there is only one spell. We factor in elite spell and other spells in the mix.

And, it's a simple math, 36% HCT/HSR is always better than 20% HCT/HSR if FC rank are the same. 36% translates into 1 out of 3 spell get 50% reduction in castig/recharge. 20% is 1 out of 5 spell get 50% reduction in castig/recharge.

Running 40/40 is being optimistic, except mesmer has invested in very high rank FC ie. rank 15, then there is no need for 40/40.

IMO a whole calculation side by side between 40/40 and staff (indicate what mods on staff), and present those numbers in a more understandable format is more appealing. The pictures in your original post is not easy to understand.
The comparison is 40/40 to 0/20 or 20/20 staff just to look at the different. 100 spell just a sample example for ppl to understand the base formula. Actually the sample forumla (as lasted on note) didn't even take into number of spell, it just (40/40) .36 x .5 + (1-.36) x fc reduction. The mean average % for 100 spell or just 1 spell is the same. 36% of course is better then 20% if there is no FC casting because if not trigger is back to original time. But because Mes have FC to get a overall average you have to consider those reduction to your data.

It like saying you have a special credit card and each time you make a purchase you have 36% chance that purchase is discount 50%, and the other 64% of the time you get x discount. Then you got another card that have a chance of only 20% you get discounted 50% and 80% of the time you get x discount. Now I don't know about you but I would like to know what the overall average discount I can get per purchase before I dive in and select the one to use. Wouldn't you?

This is a statistical calculation of overall average. Actually from base average at FC = 12+ basically is the same as 40/40 base on overall average already.

Your correct should have done it side by side for more easy comparison. I'll make the change later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bulldozer View Post
Few if any builds actually require a 40/40 set. A staff modded properly will be just fine (and can be advantageous for certain builds as well).
Actually as mention in original posting most general (dom\ill\fc) mes build here and on pvx recommend a 40/40 set. Now before i did this I did have different 40/40 for all my hero and myself (which is lot of set and take lot of room lol). Which is why I want to know if there really that big of a different. Is one thing to think there really no different, it another to see data wise there really no different. And actually you can get some extra side bonus off a staff.

Last edited by Drk Dervish; Jul 28, 2012 at 03:09 PM // 15:09..
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Old Jul 29, 2012, 12:41 AM // 00:41   #12
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Just like your last mesmer thread. You fill the posts with unrelated stuff and then expect people to focus on something. I could go on about staff vs 40/40 and the other additional things in the original post, but then Relyk won't like that.

This thread would be so much easier if you gave several useful staff combinations to compare with a 40/40 set than what's all in this thread so far.

Maybe you just want to compare recharges and casting since that's what your replies are about, but then that doesn't leave other modifications up for discussion.
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Old Jul 29, 2012, 01:22 AM // 01:22   #13
Drk Dervish
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Originally Posted by Cuilan View Post
Just like your last mesmer thread. You fill the posts with unrelated stuff and then expect people to focus on something. I could go on about staff vs 40/40 and the other additional things in the original post, but then Relyk won't like that.

This thread would be so much easier if you gave several useful staff combinations to compare with a 40/40 set than what's all in this thread so far.

Maybe you just want to compare recharges and casting since that's what your replies are about, but then that doesn't leave other modifications up for discussion.
There no reason to compare other mod for staff because the data only work if you compare a 40/40 with a staff with at least 1 +30hp mod to offset the +2 major FC rune in comparison of 40/40 of a +1 minor FC rune. ie. To be with the same reduction rate a staff must be +1 more FC pts then a 40/40 set. ie if i add a +5 armor bonus to the extra slot and now what.. it have nothing to do with HCT or HSR. Again your point and analyse on a topic never make much sense

As for the other 2 mods its all extra bonus you can add on which you can't do on 40/40 set. The is not related and I don't except people for focus on anything just find it interesting to notice. If you want to attack my thread then proof my finding wrong. Or if I missing anything should including anything in part of the calculation please do tell.

I ONLY mention base on statistical average overtime staff with a +30hp +1 FC pts would get the same average base pts as a 40/40 with 1 less FC pts. But staff on the other hand are still open for other mod and other add on bonus associated with higher FC even those is only 1 more pts.

As for you other comments on my other thread will if you don't have anything to add on the table then I just take your just trolling. As for personal comment on Relyk why don't you comment on his thread. Since your wrote it on my thread then I'll give you my piece of pie. Yes Relyk does drive a hard bargain and I butt head with him in couple other thread and topic. However he's comments are always intelligent and not without merit. And if you does give back merit feedback back to him, he would also accept it. We all here try to crack GW gaming mechanics.

Last edited by Drk Dervish; Jul 29, 2012 at 02:09 AM // 02:09..
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Old Jul 29, 2012, 01:47 AM // 01:47   #14
Premium Unleaded
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Is this directed at players or are heroes included? Because the point about the global hsr becomes more or becomes less important to the end result based on the bar ran.
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Old Jul 29, 2012, 01:55 AM // 01:55   #15
Drk Dervish
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Originally Posted by Premium Unleaded View Post
Is this directed at players or are heroes included? Because the point about the global hsr becomes more or becomes less important to the end result based on the bar ran.
I would say it more for hero as they have the less control and the ease for changing build. As player usually we don't run those traditional dom/ill/fc build bar but i think is still a usable data for player to review.
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Old Jul 29, 2012, 02:31 AM // 02:31   #16
Cuilan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drk Dervish View Post
Again your point and analysis on a topic never make much sense.
My analysis seems to be shared by other members who posted in this topic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drk Dervish View Post
If you want to attack my thread then proof my finding wrong.
I cannot because I was already aware of fast casting and 40/40 sets. I mostly use a staff or 20/20 set with most builds.

Last edited by Cuilan; Jul 29, 2012 at 03:37 AM // 03:37..
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Old Jul 29, 2012, 06:55 AM // 06:55   #17
Relyk
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Ignore Cuilan, he just enjoys trolling me. I'll go head and do my math.

A 40/40 set gives a 36% chance of HSR. A staff gives a 20% chance of HSR. In the case the spells being used are of the matching attribute, we intuitively know that using the 40/40 set is better. In the case of the spells not being the same attribute, we intuitively know that a staff is better because the 40/40 set will never trigger. The question is how significant is the difference between using using the two sets on a Mesmer when they have an innate bonus to cooldown reduction from Fast Casting. The reason this is discussed is because cooldown reduction is maxed at 50% so triggering HSR will only reduce it by the difference between the bonus from FC and the cap.

I haven't done statistics in awhile, but it's a binomial distribution or some other fancy word. The average is the sum of each event times is probability of the event occurring. In that respect, drk has his equation right.

FC = (Fast Casting rank * 3) / 100

If we consider the normal case where a character has 0 FC (As in any profession using a weapon):
Average cooldown (Staff): .5*.2 + 0*.8 = .1 or 10%
Average cooldown (40/40): .5*.36 + 0*.64 = .18 or 18%

Average Difference = 40/40 - Staff = .08 or 8%

If we include the the bonus from FC into the equation, triggering the bonus from HSR will be much less significant. We'll also consider the +1 FC mod, therefore you have a 20% probability of FC+.03 instead of FC:
Average cooldown (Staff): .5*.2 + FC*.8 = .10 + .8FC
Average cooldown (Staff w/ +1 FC): .5*.2 + [.8*FC + .2*(FC+.03)]*.8= .1048 + .8FC
Average cooldown (40/40): .5*.36 + FC*.64 = .18 + .64FC

Average Difference = 40/40 - Staff = .08 - .16FC
Average Difference w/ +1 FC = 40/40 - Staff = .0754 - .16FC

You can already tell that as you increase your rank in Fast Casting, the difference between the weapons becomes smaller. Each rank in Fast Casting decreases the difference by roughly .5% At 11 FC, the difference is around 2.72% Appropriately, the +1 FC is equivalent to little over a rank in FC.

So do I think that's significant enough? Considering that it's either having the bonus or not having it, then I do. Will I ever notice it in combat? Maybe if I see Chaos Storm recharge a couple seconds sooner while I'm doing VQs, otherwise no. As this is only the average, it has very little meaning if I spike something. If I'm only using the skill once or twice during a battle, there is enough deviation between whether I get 50% recharge or 33% recharge that I care about it. It's still going to be considered optimal and therefore suggesting a 40/40 set for mesmers is good practice.
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Old Jul 29, 2012, 03:40 PM // 15:40   #18
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Originally Posted by Relyk View Post
Ignore Cuilan, he just enjoys trolling me. I'll go head and do my math

I haven't done statistics in awhile, but it's a binomial distribution or some other fancy word. The average is the sum of each event times is probability of the event occurring. In that respect, drk has his equation right.

If we include the the bonus from FC into the equation, triggering the bonus from HSR will be much less significant. We'll also consider the +1 FC mod, therefore you have a 20% probability of FC+.03 instead of FC:
Average cooldown (Staff): .5*.2 + FC*.8 = .10 + .8FC
Average cooldown (Staff w/ +1 FC): .5*.2 + [.8*FC + .2*(FC+.03)]*.8= .1048 + .8FC
Average cooldown (40/40): .5*.36 + FC*.64 = .18 + .64FC

Average Difference = 40/40 - Staff = .08 - .16FC
Average Difference w/ +1 FC = 40/40 - Staff = .0754 - .16FC
Your calculation is correct also however when I make the comparison of staff with +1 FC, that 1 FC does not come from a 20% chance +1 FC staff mod. That 1 FC come from a major FC rune (-35 hp will get offset by a +30 hp staff mod, +5 hp insigina). So is not .5*.2 + [.8*FC + .2*(FC+.03)]*.8 but just .5*.2+.8*(FC+.03). If adding another +1 FC @20% mod on top of that then that would be .5*.2 + [.8*(FC+.03) + .2*(FC+0.03+.03)]*.8 in that case it will give a even better average.

I think is also a good practice to have both, but it is a very interesting information to know and specially if your consider to use it on heroes.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 10:58 PM // 22:58   #19
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The FC variable is based on your rank in FC, runes are therefore included as part of that calculation. You do not need to offset the health cost to run a major or superior FC rune.
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Old Jul 30, 2012, 11:44 PM // 23:44   #20
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True but add the hp to offset major because it would be a more balance comparison when toon hp and energy to be as close as possible. If not someone will jump out and say is not apple to apple as your staff toon took a -35 hp hit for a +1 higher FC while 40/40 set didn't.

With the offset both toon end up with same Hp with very close Energy and staff have +1 rune FC over 40/40. With out the extra +1 FC staff average wouldn't be that close to 40/40,
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