Playing High-end PvE effectively with just heroes & henchmen [Elementalist version]

[Kaida the Heartless]

Nice guide Jeydra. Lots of useful stuff here!

[Lanier]

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

ST says hi.

Apart jokes, ER is...OK for protting. The build itself would be great, but hero Ai never spam as much as ER would allow them to. Also, cause you can't use always a BU, and neither expect heroes to chain Glyph of swiftness -> ER for make it perma, you must consider that it WILL be a downtime. And heroes tend to cast sooo much stuff in that seconds.

That's why ST > ER if played by heroes: their AI.

(obv, ST isn't perfect, but then what would be the balance?)

This is offtopic, I know... but what???

ER prot on a hero is soooo much better than ST

The hero AI is the whole reason why I never, ever use ST anymore and why I always use ER Prot. I'm not talking about the human ER prot build (which is what was being referred to earlier in this thread), im talking about the hero version.

Ether Renewal
Infuse Health
Shield of Absorption
Spirit Bond
Prot Spirit
Aegis
Aura of Restoration
Life Attunement (disable and micro on ER hero at start of each area)

This build is so much better defensively than any ST hero build out there, and the reason is that hero AI is so much better at using this style of build than ST + the defensive spirits. Sure Ether Renewal might not be permanant, but with a 20% enchant weapon mod, it is close to permanant, and with 70+ energy, your hero is not going to run out of energy in the short downtime. Trust me, I have specifically observed my ER hero on multiple occasions... he doesn't run out of energy in ER's downtime (in fact, he doesn't even get close). Heroes are excellent at using ER on recharge, maintaining AoR, spamming Prot spirit, using Infuse on low health allies... really this bar is designed like this because the hero AI uses it so well.

ST on the other hand... well heroes are awful at maintaining Shelter and Union (or displacement... but then again that isn't always maintainable like the other two are). Heroes don't know to use Union after Shelter. They don't know to use AoU after casting BOTH (or all 3) spirits. They can't use summon spirits to health the spirits. The hero AI is simply not good at maintaining the defensive spirits, like a human could. ST is a wonderful human build, but please stop perpetuating the rumor that a hero is better with ST builds than ER builds.

Trust me, I play rit (and ST builds) fairly often, so I know what I'm talking about when I say that Shelter, Union, and particularly displacement drop very quickly without AoU and Summon spirits. I have also used ST heroes, and they haven't worked nearly as well as the ER hero that I mentioned earlier in this post. I'm not just pulling this information out of my ass... I have tested this stuff ingame. ER heroes are better defensively than ST heroes.

@higherminion: pure prot/heal heroes are incredibly useful in tougher areas (like the DoA). They aren't "meh" at all.

[Elfblade]

Originally Posted by Lanier

This is offtopic, I know... but what???

ER prot on a hero is soooo much better than ST

The hero AI is the whole reason why I never, ever use ST anymore and why I always use ER Prot. I'm not talking about the human ER prot build (which is what was being referred to earlier in this thread), im talking about the hero version.

Ether Renewal
Infuse Health
Shield of Absorption
Spirit Bond
Prot Spirit
Aegis
Aura of Restoration
Life Attunement (disable and micro on ER hero at start of each area)

This build is so much better defensively than any ST hero build out there, and the reason is that hero AI is so much better at using this style of build than ST + the defensive spirits. Sure Ether Renewal might not be permanant, but with a 20% enchant weapon mod, it is close to permanant, and with 70+ energy, your hero is not going to run out of energy in the short downtime. Trust me, I have specifically observed my ER hero on multiple occasions... he doesn't run out of energy in ER's downtime (in fact, he doesn't even get close). Heroes are excellent at using ER on recharge, maintaining AoR, spamming Prot spirit, using Infuse on low health allies... really this bar is designed like this because the hero AI uses it so well.

ST on the other hand... well heroes are awful at maintaining Shelter and Union (or displacement... but then again that isn't always maintainable like the other two are). Heroes don't know to use Union after Shelter. They don't know to use AoU after casting BOTH (or all 3) spirits. They can't use summon spirits to health the spirits. The hero AI is simply not good at maintaining the defensive spirits, like a human could. ST is a wonderful human build, but please stop perpetuating the rumor that a hero is better with ST builds than ER builds.

Trust me, I play rit (and ST builds) fairly often, so I know what I'm talking about when I say that Shelter, Union, and particularly displacement drop very quickly without AoU and Summon spirits. I have also used ST heroes, and they haven't worked nearly as well as the ER hero that I mentioned earlier in this post. I'm not just pulling this information out of my ass... I have tested this stuff ingame. ER heroes are better defensively than ST heroes.

@higherminion: pure prot/heal heroes are incredibly useful in tougher areas (like the DoA). They aren't "meh" at all.

Problem is that u run 2 or 3 spirits on your ST while you only need shelter, and it makes them much more effective by running only shelter. AoU is a matter of taste my heroes use it right and if not i micro it. You really do not need the reduction of union or displacement when u can have a team wide prot spirit 24/7.

Also ER heroes are a all in one package while ST relies on other members to bring the healing and additional prot (Really all you need next to it is SoA/aegis). Again you bring the ST for 24/7 prot spirit on your team.

ER heroes are not better they are much more forgiving, as they have unlimited energy unless stripped( and assuming you don't micro him or very little). The hero can cast tons of misplaced spells and it still wouldn't matter because they have the energy to cover for the mistake.

That a ST human is better then a ST hero is logical but the same can be said about a ER human being so much better then a ER hero(i think the gap is even bigger since a ER human is all u need as opposed to a ER hero where you still want some safety nets or additional defense. ) That argument goes both ways.

It all boils down to what you want: are you going to tank or micro grab the ER most probably it is the better choice. but if you are not tanking or microing that much you can better grab the ST since it will in more then most areas offer you that wonderful 24/7 prot spirit.

[Jeydra]

Both ER Prot and ST Rits are typically unnecessary, but when the going gets tough ST Rits > ER Prot, at least with the kind of build espoused in this guide. It's because of the unique way ST operates. You can duplicate a lot of an ER Prot's effect with just Prot Spirit + good aggro, but ST Shelter is the only thing that will protect against (for example) Judgement of Dhuum. That's why ER isn't in the guide, but ST is.

[syphonus]

It's been a while for me, but I was under the impression that a ST rit would have trouble keeping spirits up with a MM in the party.

[Kaida the Heartless]

Originally Posted by syphonus

It's been a while for me, but I was under the impression that a ST rit would have trouble keeping spirits up with a MM in the party.

It does against AoE, but keeping your minion army from blowing up is still effective protting. Protecting minions is protecting your party before you need to protect your party, if that makes sense. :P

[Kunder]

If you want pure protting bring ST and only Shelter. Other prot spirits aren't worth 1/10th of Shelter in HM areas, putting up a new Shelter every 5s is pretty damn close to invincibility.

[AndrewSX]

Well, i guess i haven't been clear. ST is superior to ER not for the build itself, but for the use of it by the AI, which doesn't spam as that lolol-infiniteenergy allows when ER is up and make the mistake to cast costly spells w/o any energy ench on.

Effectiveness of the ST may vary, depending of the build. ST with Shelther, Union and Displacement is crap. Moslty because hero will try to keep all 3 alive, which isn't bad itself, but leads to burn the ST bonus on recharges (and this will happen to the one that must be renewed more, Shelther).

So on my ST i use only Shelther (that have a 99% uptime being alone, excluding rupts or wtf aoe or killed spirit, but w/e...) and Displacement (disabled and micro'ed only with lots of meeles) IF i haven't a slot for Aegis or another anti-meele somewhere else.
Energy isn't a problem with the Bip hero i've started running.

Obv. this doesn't mean that ER isn't good....but they serves different playstyles. In a full caster team is better ST, so you won't be 8 squishies. With a human meele, prots on him and managing aggro is generally enough to handle the dmg. But we are in the Ele section, right?

[Fia]

In pugs, just let the ele heal and the monk nuke. I think Anet misnamed them early on but we understand.

In 7H, most prot is from Panic, updated Bsurge (+ Fevered Dreams), or Ineptitude instead of FD.

So, emo is essentially a waste of a hero slot.

ST is nice because, while it slows down minion bombing, it's a reliable background prot with room for more minions (Explosive Growth) and/or offensive Communing spirits. Minions and spirits are the only good offensive contribution that ST is capable of without energy problems.

Anyway, back to ele's. Bsurge is the new Ineptitude; time to expand into other mesmer elites. Starbursting is now probably the best way for ele humans to ball up mobs for the heroes.

Dual attuning for Rodgort's provides only plain damage (+10-15 with no armor penetration). Instead of +2 Fire, I'd rather take Air's armor penetration and utility (aoe blind = prot, frees up Displacement's slot).

That said, probably everything's going to change with the next update...heheheh

[Swingline]

Originally Posted by Fia

In pugs, just let the ele heal and the monk nuke. I think Anet misnamed them early on but we understand.

In 7H, most prot is from Panic, updated Bsurge (+ Fevered Dreams), or Ineptitude instead of FD.

So, emo is essentially a waste of a hero slot.

ST is nice because, while it slows down minion bombing, it's a reliable background prot with room for more minions (Explosive Growth) and/or offensive Communing spirits. Minions and spirits are the only good offensive contribution that ST is capable of without energy problems.

Anyway, back to ele's. Bsurge is the new Ineptitude; time to expand into other mesmer elites. Starbursting is now probably the best way for ele humans to ball up mobs for the heroes.

Dual attuning for Rodgort's provides only plain damage (+10-15 with no armor penetration). Instead of +2 Fire, I'd rather take Air's armor penetration and utility (aoe blind = prot, frees up Displacement's slot).

That said, probably everything's going to change with the next update...heheheh

...or just load 3 searing flames. Shit dies so fast its not even funny.

Originally Posted by Kunder

If you want pure protting bring ST and only Shelter. Other prot spirits aren't worth 1/10th of Shelter in HM areas, putting up a new Shelter every 5s is pretty damn close to invincibility.

Don't get me wrong, I love ST prot but you have to babysit the hero. Sometimes they screw up and Shelter goes on recharge. It happens more with a minion army because they ball in AoE.

[AndrewSX]

Originally Posted by Swingline

Don't get me wrong, I love ST prot but you have to babysit the hero. Sometimes they screw up and Shelter goes on recharge. It happens more with a minion army because they ball in AoE.

Which is one of the reasons i've stopped using a MM. Say whatever you want, and i agree that MM has been a must-have for years, but sometimes is just better to load something that helps to blow up stuff faster or don't get yourself killed, rather than invest almost a team member slot to build something that say "Kill me, kill me!" to draw dmg awy from others. Just prot them all, and that's what a single Shelther does. As far as the dmg role of MM goes, unless minions could be directed (with apposite commands or simple "I'm targeting XXX!"), they're too much unreliable for me.

[Misaka Misuzu]

I've been gone from the game for several months, but returned recently to get back to work on HoM stuff. I used this post as my guide for getting started with 7H, and it worked great back then (thanks, btw).

A couple questions though, regarding the changes made in the meantime:

1. Why the shift from 2 E/Ps to 2 Dom Mesmers? The first post still says that Dom doesn't stack particularly well; has something changed?

2. Did the January patch do anything as far as the E/P hero build goes? Based on other posts on this forum I've been experimenting with fire on my own character a bit, but the heroes seem to still do fine with air unless I'm missing something important.

[Jeydra]

Glad you found the guide useful.

1. The shift from 2 E/P's to 2 Dom Mesmers came about because I tried it and it was better. There was a noticeable effect in dying less but no noticeable effect in killing slower. I'm a little hesitant to theorize why. It's true that Dom Mesmers don't stack well, hence the third Dom Mesmer generally does show a slower kill speed relative to the E/P, but the second one doesn't.

2. The last HM patch killed Invoke as a build. The exhaustion stacks up too fast to wear off. While the AI doesn't zero itself on energy, it will exhaust itself to the point that it stops casting Invoke, when there is no point bringing Invoke. The solution to this quandary isn't obvious and hasn't been perfected yet. E/P Fire is the closest solution, but it's subpar in areas with big armour vs. Fire, and there are plenty of those. What general solutions there are in those areas I don't know. When I do, I'll update the guide. It'll take a while for me to find something though because these days I generally don't use heroes much.

gl hf!