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Old Mar 06, 2011, 06:51 PM // 18:51   #201
Verene
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The fact is that now people who pay real money have access to AI teams with 4 or more heroes of the same profession.
No one's actually proved that this gives any actual advantages in-game, though.

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Phase two, costumes. Now non-paying players are on a lesser playing field, they are denied certain aesthetic features. Phase 3, character make-overs and name-changes. Still aesthetic, but they were highly requested, highly useful features.
If you're going to complain, at least get your facts straight - makeovers and name changes came over half a year before the first costume was released (April 09 and December 09, respectively).

Also, how the hell does a completely optional cosmetic feature that offers zero advantages whatsoever leave people on a "lesser playing field"? It's not like wearing the Shining Blade Disguise makes you do more damage against the White Mantle, or anything like that.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 06:55 PM // 18:55   #202
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Don't rehash this argument again just now.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 10:22 PM // 22:22   #203
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I think it's a great addition, personally. Honestly people, most of you have spent thousands of hours on this game, but have probably only paid $150-$200 to get there. Spending an extra $45 on the game if it gives you any extra enjoyment isn't unreasonable. Most shitty games out there these days will cost you $60 to buy and then $15 a few weeks later for a DLC, all for a fraction of the shelf life that GW offers.

I haven't played GW in about 2 years, and from moving from one game to another I can safely say the support in this game is sorely under-appreciated. Go buy a game from Activision or EA and see what it's like when the game is hacked in 2 weeks and you know you'll never see another patch.

This update lets NCsoft make a few dollars from a game that hasn't required a cent since EOTN... and you don't even need to buy in. Good for them.
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Old Mar 06, 2011, 10:39 PM // 22:39   #204
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Originally Posted by shinta_himura View Post
"Why would you want to?"

Not a legitimate argument. The fact is that now people who pay real money have access to AI teams with 4 or more heroes of the same profession. People who do not pay real money can only make AI teams with 3 or less heroes of the same profession. There is nothing you can do as a non-paying player to change this. With things like skill unlocks, non-paying players are still somewhat equal to paying players because both sides are capable of getting every skill in the game for their PvP characters.

Do you still fail to see this blatant fact? Will you still argue that this is not a sleight against the community? Please, don't, because I think anyone with enough sense here is tired of the NCSoft/Anet "They can do no wrong!" bandwagon.

All you need to do is look how far we've come from the inception of microtransactions in this game. It has been a process of phasing things in. At first the playing field was still completely even, if you paid money you got to skip some grinding and what not, but non-paying players were still able to get all of the same things. Phase two, costumes. Now non-paying players are on a lesser playing field, they are denied certain aesthetic features. Phase 3, character make-overs and name-changes. Still aesthetic, but they were highly requested, highly useful features.

What you're seeing is just a glimpse through the keyhole into what Anet intends to turn GW2 into. GW1 is currently just a laboratory to test how far they can push microtransactions.
Few years ago, I'd reply to inherent problems with microtransactions by arguing that they are necessary if there is no monthly fee. Most of us are past that age of delusion, though, and the only incentive to bring micro in game regardless of it's business model is pure greed, not even paying for the Live Development Team or the Game Support. We've seen it already with p2p blockbusters charging for such mundane things like name change, character customisation change or in-game mount.

Today, my answer is: if you want my money, then the feature better be 1) good 2) at appropriate price 3) not harmful to the non-paying segment, so the community as a whole isn't partitioned (and that would lead to worse gameplay for everyone in the long run, including micro enthusiasts).

The problem with this set of wishes is that what is appropriate in my view might not be for another player, blissfully shelling out 45$ without second thought. Similarly, the perceived 'usefulness' of a feature is mutually-exclusive with it's non-harmful effect for the non-paying users - if particular micro is highly sought-after, it's because it gives a very clear gameplay advantage over other players or exclusive access to high-quality content.

The game company will obviously disregard any individual demands, focusing on the profit, in return pleasing nobody but ripping everyone, either indirectly through alternative cost ('you could buy another game instead, this one is no fun unless you pay for micro') or directly by wallet. Quite obviously, customer response is always subjective, depending on the individual.

As always, flock of sheep is sacrificed for the 'greater good' Greed is good, methinks. This doesn't change the fact that in the flood of crap PC games (MMOs in particular), the titles that stand out for their quality and innovation get some slack in these matters, because comparatively they offer best gameplay & best content for the lowest price.

One of such companies is Anet, obviously, regardless of our (often critical) opinions about costumes, character make-overs, name change kits, PvP/Pet unlocks, BMP, mercenaries or microtransactions in general. Out of all of them, though, I despise BMP & PvP unlocks the most, as these either sell solid game content or give an advantage over other new players, instead of providing purely-aesthetic matters.

Last edited by AmbientMelody; Mar 06, 2011 at 10:54 PM // 22:54..
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 02:34 AM // 02:34   #205
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Or I can point out that a company put out a game on a promise of free to play, new expansions every 6 months.. and then totally abandoned that model just two expansions in.. and started a sequel that won't truly allow me to continue my work on my existing chars (Hall monument crap is worthless).
The game is still completely free to play, you can still log in and play all of the game without making a single purchase right?

The expansion model was abandoned for a good reason. It broke the game and did nothing but introduce power creep, huge imbalance issues, and players being spread too far and wide to be able to group up for a lot of the content.

The business model change in GW had nothing to do with finance, it simply didnt work, and continuing the expansion model would have been ridiculous. This game has been out for nearly 6 years now, and it reached the end of its lifecycle about 2 years ago. Anet realized this and rather than making new expansions decided to make a sequel instead. I think that most long term GW players prefer that there is a sequel being made instead of more expansions for what a lot of people consider to be a dead game.

Managing finances and greed have nothing to do with these decisions, or the introduction of the cash shop. Anet still work around the clock to provide support and bring updates to GW, as well as having to maintain the servers, this doesnt happen for free in any MMO game, and if it does then that game is going to be crap.

MMO's arent comparable to single player games that you pay for once, after which the developers forget all about providing updates or any kind of support for the game.

As I said before, if you think that an MMO like GW can exist purely on expansions only without a cash shop model, then feel free to make one yourself and show us how its done. These kind of games are nowhere near as cheap as you think GW should be.

Last edited by bhavv; Mar 07, 2011 at 08:14 AM // 08:14..
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 09:13 AM // 09:13   #206
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I am buying the mercenary heroes, because I can afford it and, I do not mind giving some money for GW/GW2 either. And saying it's greedy of ANet to give you the option to purchase something that have not been proven to benefit you, is a cheap or poor mans talk. Seriously.
I think you are missing the point. Guild Wars has a huge fan base and NCSoft seem to have no problems exploiting that large number of loyal GW fans. You have to remember that NCSoft has been involved in two of the biggest MMO flops ever over the last five years. Namely, Auto Assault and Tabula Rasa. When they loose money like that where do they get the money to stay afloat?

Every time they lose subscriptions from Aion or whatever they just come back to GW and collect 10 or 20 bucks from the millions of GW fans to balance the books. This is what is pissing people off, and it needs to stop.

Yes you can argue no one is forcing you to buy the gimmicks in the online store, but really who wants to log onto a GW account that is missing half the stuff in the game? Every major update now has free content and pay content as well that is getting more and more expensive. There is a deeper issue going on here than just players being cheap. Its a resentment/concern of being exploited and it has some validity.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 09:27 AM // 09:27   #207
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I think you are missing the point. Guild Wars has a huge fan base and NCSoft seem to have no problems exploiting that large number of loyal GW fans. You have to remember that NCSoft has been involved in two of the biggest MMO flops ever over the last five years. Namely, Auto Assault and Tabula Rasa. When they loose money like that where do they get the money to stay afloat?

Every time they lose subscriptions from Aion or whatever they just come back to GW and collect 10 or 20 bucks from the millions of GW fans to balance the books. This is what is pissing people off, and it needs to stop.

Yes you can argue no one is forcing you to buy the gimmicks in the online store, but really who wants to log onto a GW account that is missing half the stuff in the game? Every major update now has free content and pay content as well that is getting more and more expensive. There is a deeper issue going on here than just players being cheap. Its a resentment/concern of being exploited and it has some validity.

Okay, I get that. Bigger issue and all. But why do you consider 'missing half of the game' by NOT buying the stuff in the game store? This is not including expansions because those weren't made to just feed on the GW fanbase. This game isn't about extra storage slots, xunlai slots of costumes?

And since you say they take 10-20 bucks from the GW store, please tell me an example of this, where this has actually been done.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 10:48 AM // 10:48   #208
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And since you say they take 10-20 bucks from the GW store, please tell me an example of this, where this has actually been done.
I said they are collecting 10-20 bucks from the GW fan base by charging for gimmicks and content. I'm speculating that the decision to charge for mercenary heroes was more than likely made by some greedy bean counter with an agenda completely unrelated to GW. That feature could have just as easily been free. You may think that you are supporting GW2 but in reality you are just feeding a huge corporate monster of which GW is just a small part. There is no need to keep tapping Guild Wars fans for money every three months or so except corporate greed imo.

How much are they gonna come begging for in the April update? The micro-transactions are probably making more money than the actual game at this point.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 11:00 AM // 11:00   #209
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I'm speculating that the decision to charge for mercenary heroes was more than likely made by some greedy bean counter with an agenda completely unrelated to GW. That feature could have just as easily been free...
You DO realize devs have to justify changes they make to game?

Because meetings that go like: "So, we are planning this big update" ... "How does it pay for itself" ... "Ummm" ... "Go work on gw2, okay?" are not good for anyne playing GW1.

You do not keep people on paycheck out of charity... you keep em because they will do something profitable.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 11:01 AM // 11:01   #210
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How much are they gonna come begging for in the April update? The micro-transactions are probably making more money than the actual game at this point.
So? What's the problem with that? It's still your money and you can decide whether you want characters of your account as heroes, or not. I want to so I bought 3 mercs. They are not charging you money for a 9 hero party. Now that would be offering an advantage in gameplay.

Besides, if you cannot beat everything this game has with 7 heroes you won't be able to with 7 ritualist or necromancer heroes.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 11:23 AM // 11:23   #211
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You may think that you are supporting GW2 but in reality you are just feeding a huge corporate monster of which GW is just a small part.
OTOH, if this corporate monster goes down, both Guild Wars 1 and 2 will die with it. I've been playing only for about half a year so far, but I am surprised that the servers are up still, 5 years after the launch. I think it's legitimate to try and make some money off the still playing fan base. And it's not as if mercs were essential to the game mechanics.

The money making is actually a lot worse in other games, namely the ones that are free to play and come with a cash shop. The one I came from (Perfect World International) practically twisted your arm to get a chunk out of your wallet.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 11:49 AM // 11:49   #212
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I've bought a set of 3 slots to say thanks for the entire Embark Beach update (which I think is amazing), not because I want or need those Mercenary Heroes. But I agree the slots are overpriced... $45 for a set of 8 is about the price of a full game, and it's more than I paid for any of the GW campaigns... and consider that those feature a lot more content!
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 12:01 PM // 12:01   #213
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What about ... you know ... partying with some other human? You will even get enhanced skillset on one of your slaves.

Problem with your argument is that you were well able to have your 7 monk party well before this update ... you just had to have some social skills to get it.

Imba sword is not like that because it would have no equivalent functionality.

But mercenaries ... you can always outdo mercenary team by partying with people who just got basic campaigns.
so based on your logic, back in '05 they should have charged people $40 to use henchman. And if they didn't want to pay that, they could always 'party with real people'.

and based by your logic, they should have just made the 7 hero update cost money altogether. And if you didnt want to pay $50 to be able to use 7 heroes, you could always 'party with some other human'. Am i right?

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Originally Posted by zwei2stein View Post
You DO realize devs have to justify changes they make to game?

Because meetings that go like: "So, we are planning this big update" ... "How does it pay for itself" ... "Ummm" ... "Go work on gw2, okay?" are not good for anyne playing GW1.

You do not keep people on paycheck out of charity... you keep em because they will do something profitable.
This game was advertised and released on the promise that we would never need to pay for updates or anything that affected gameplay. They have made a ton of money off their silly costumes and name changes and such and if they still want more then i think its great that they keep making new eye-candy for profit. But they shouldn't be charging for anything that even remotely connects to gameplay. And mercenary heroes greatly impact gameplay.

And, honestly, if they for some reason cannot 'afford' these big updates, then they should not do them. You dont promise someone a big update, then deviler months later but ask for money in return.

Last edited by novawhiz; Mar 07, 2011 at 12:06 PM // 12:06..
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 12:51 PM // 12:51   #214
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...
By my logic, in 05 would ot have drive to do that because situation was different:

"We want to introduce feature X"

"How will it pay for itself?"

"By keeping people interested in game and buying sequels and by making people who bought only sequel buy first game too"

That was the plan. Keep people happy so that they will buy more chapters. Now, situation is different and thus we got cash shop. Complain to person which canceled projects Utopia and Oz

And yes, they could have made 4 extra heroes paid update. Or could have given two extra hero slots for free ("help with war in kryta") and offer other two in cash shop.

They chose pretty damn good "feature/greed" ratio. Notably, giving everyone what was asked for (7 heroes) and making unexpected extension no-one was asking for paid thing.

And yes, you are right, you could just play with other humans if 4 extra heroes were not free. Or fill up party with henchmen as usuall. Why not?

People bought seccond account to get 3 extra heroes and paid full price of three campaigns and eotn. Were you ever mad about that?

---

As for planning: "One token cash shop feature" was propably planned since day 1 of development. Duh.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 02:09 PM // 14:09   #215
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I'm all for the cash shop so they can keep bringing out new content for gw1 but it shouldn't sell upgrades that gives one player with money an advantage over another player that has very little. Players will abuse it and will run 7 necros. Either ANet still doesn't realize players abuse things to the max or they completely ignore it and its looking like the latter. Lets hope this isnt a sign they are turning into one of those asshole companies that claim there is no advantage to spending money in the cash shop when there is a $25 sword thats better than anything endgame content can provide.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 05:22 PM // 17:22   #216
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I'll keep you posted.
Cool. keep us posted. noticed something else you guys hide/fixed in the update. Very sneaky of you guys. aka -->

anywho i love the new Mercenary heroes. got a a few slots. As for EB, like a broken record, trade/market of some capacity. party window update/enhancement.

But, really having you check out our(my) options and feed back from the community is enough for me.

Thanks for your time Stéphane.
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Old Mar 07, 2011, 06:53 PM // 18:53   #217
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I really enjoy have a full team of my own heroes, but it's pretty lame they don't get their weapons & gear..

You'd taken the time to gear up the guys seems like you should be able to use all that.. Plus re-gearing 8 new guys on all your alts is kinda dumb.

The gear is part of what your character is, might as well leave it all on. The art & class is cool, but $10 is kinda steep for that.
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Old Mar 09, 2011, 10:11 AM // 10:11   #218
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I really enjoy have a full team of my own heroes, but it's pretty lame they don't get their weapons & gear..

You'd taken the time to gear up the guys seems like you should be able to use all that.. Plus re-gearing 8 new guys on all your alts is kinda dumb.

The gear is part of what your character is, might as well leave it all on. The art & class is cool, but $10 is kinda steep for that.
In all logic, a mercenary is someone paid to do work, and is expected to bring his own gear (armor+weapons) to get the job done.

In GW, mercenaries are paid for by real money, and must retain all character properties. The armor cannot be dyed, removed or changed. Same goes for weapons. This way, high-end weapons cannot be abused.
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Old Mar 09, 2011, 10:54 AM // 10:54   #219
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Nobody has commented on the huge economic impact both 7 heroes and now merc Heroes has made ingame. Runes have jumped tremendously, and people are making ingame money on this, a good boost for demand and sales. Even if people hate the hero update, sales of once cheap runes are making people money now. Can't hate that. Odds are the folks not needing to outfit new mercs are making most of it too.

I bought the 8 slot.. and I am so happy with it. I basically fired ogden and Olias, Norgu, and I am having a blast adventuring with my girls. I'm getting more mileage out of my elite armor purchases and costumes as well. My Rae merc is a busy little Lich necro, and my Lylee Mes merc is in a sensible white tux outfit for adventuring, instead of a nightie.

Really, its a new game for me. I don't mind paying 45 for a new game experience, and that is what I am finding. Out of my rut.. and back in to finding new and fun ways to do things.
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Old Mar 09, 2011, 01:36 PM // 13:36   #220
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Cool. keep us posted. noticed something else you guys hide/fixed in the update. Very sneaky of you guys. aka -->
Would you care to share your secret findings with us?
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