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Old Dec 16, 2011, 09:10 AM // 09:10   #81
Jeydra
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Originally Posted by Lanier View Post
I hear the "melee AI is bad at targeting" arguement far more often than the "they don't use their skills correctly" arguement, at least for warriors and dervs. Don't scold me on this "being a bad argument" when so many equate the pet AI to that of the melee heroes.

Regardless, my VoS dervs have no problems with their skillbars. They maintain their enchantments and they use their attack skills just as often as a caster would use offensive spells. What more could I ask for?
They don't ball, they don't seek out balled monsters without micro, they make your teambuild inflexible (you can't switch targets nearly as well, can't reposition quickly, can't push on a target in the back of the mob, etc), they overaggro which wouldn't be so bad if they knew how to hold aggro afterwards, but they don't, yada yada blah blah ...

In other words, you can ask for them to deal more damage ...
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Old Dec 16, 2011, 04:15 PM // 16:15   #82
Lanier
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Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
They don't ball, they don't seek out balled monsters without micro, they make your teambuild inflexible (you can't switch targets nearly as well, can't reposition quickly, can't push on a target in the back of the mob, etc), they overaggro which wouldn't be so bad if they knew how to hold aggro afterwards, but they don't, yada yada blah blah ...

In other words, you can ask for them to deal more damage ...
Well I guess it comes down to playstyle then. Will they ball up monsters? No, of course not, but if I want a mob balled up for a spike, then I can easily throw prot spirit + SoA on myself and ball them up myself. Shadowstep them in (which does require micro... is that a problem?), and spike. Is a physway teambuild inflexible? That would depend on what you call inflexible. No, I can't rearrange heroes or their skills easily (which I guess you could call inflexible), but I don't really see that as a problem. As for pushing on targets in the back of the mob... that hardly is ever necessary in PvE. They switch targets just fine - no problem with their AI in regards to targeting, which you said in an earlier post wasn't their problem anyway:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
I roll with empty skillbars pretty often, and I never have problems with their targeting
Overaggroing isn't a problem if you aggro the mob correctly. Once again, it isn't the hero's job to ball or to aggro a mob. It is the player's job to ball mobs, take the initial aggro, and hold that aggro, regardless of profession. Then, the melee hero is there to provide copius amounts of damage.
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Old Dec 16, 2011, 05:22 PM // 17:22   #83
Jeydra
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See, that's the problem. If you want to ball mobs up (which is not necessarily for a spike btw - balled mobs simply take more damage from AoE) then you do it yourself. What are your melee heroes going to do then? Unless you micro hard, like putting them on avoid combat or something, they are going to join you in the frontlines and ruin your aggro control. If you don't put them on avoid combat, you have to flag them even further away than the rest of your heroes who need to stay close enough to heal you, which means you must put them as #1, #2 and #3, and then flag them individually. This kind of intensive work for less than good return is not attractive. What's more, if you are balling mobs, taking aggro and holding that aggro, why don't you fill out the rest of your team with RoJ Smiters and ARage Rits etc?

There is little doubt as well that using melee heroes makes your team inflexible. If you trigger an unexpected popup, your melee heroes cannot disengage as fast as the rest of your team can. If a patrol aggros onto you while you are killing a mob, you cannot switch targets as well as a team of full casters can. Especially obvious in a quest like 4H. If you have to switch targets - because a target is low, because a healer has run forward to wand your party, etc - then you cannot do it nearly as well with melee heroes. Overaggro is a problem because there are places where mobs will patrol close to each other. Off the top of my head the easiest examples are in Selvetarm, for the first mixed mob just behind the corner, and further up near all the Chained Souls. Another example would be near Falaharn's mob in Morostav Trail. I know you can overaggro because I've intentionally overaggroed a few times with EBVAS. Overaggro is only to be done when you know what you're doing, however, and melee AI does not know what it's doing. It will overaggro when it should not, and because they are so far ahead of the rest of your heroes you can't disengage easily either.

As for that quote, I was quoting you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lanier
First, hero AI is not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. I roll with dervs in my party pretty often, and I never have problems with their targeting, skill use, etc.
The problem with melee hero AI runs deeper than targeting.

Last edited by Jeydra; Dec 16, 2011 at 05:25 PM // 17:25..
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Old Dec 16, 2011, 05:46 PM // 17:46   #84
Lanier
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Oh, I see. Maybe I should have specified more clearly. I'll admit that I don't micromanage much, but nearly every time I pull, I do set a flag for my heroes back behind me so that I can grab the aggro before my heroes run in. Set the flag for the entire party back far enough, and then micro a prot spirit + SoA onto the main character before grabbing the aggro. With this method, Iv never had any problems with my melee heroes running in until I'm ready for them to do so. Do they grab some of the aggro from me? Yea. My previous quote, that it is the player character's job to grab aggro, was in reference to grabbing a mob's attention prior to the fight. After the fight has commenced, I see no problem with splitting the enemies aggro between myself, the melee heroes, and the minions (I always use a mm in my party, no matter what the team).

Btw, I do use arage in my party. I guess I could use RoJ too, but I typically slot in tease on my smiter for extra energy management. Still, a physical MoP/splinter spike with VoS scythes buffed by orders and SoH will do more damage than an RoJ spike.

Overaggro has never, ever been an issue with my melee heroes, and I use them all the time. I don't know what kind of experience you have had with yours (if you have even used yours recently), but flagging and pulling is more than enough to make sure that your minions don't overaggro, and they are far more likely to do so than the melee heroes (this is all under the assumtion, of course, that the melee heroes are on guard and not attack mode).

As for inflexibility, I admitted that this is true, but I also don't think it is a big deal. I would far rather have the large damage that my VoS dervs pump out than have a little more flexibility in the party.
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Old Dec 16, 2011, 06:27 PM // 18:27   #85
Malganis
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Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless View Post
Melee heroes tend to spend more time running between targets and the player than they need to. It drops their DPS by a large amount. It'd be nice if their aggro was a bit stickier so they would transition between targets better.
Putting your melee heroes on "attack" mode instead of "guard" mode helps with this issue, but it is still a problem.
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Old May 02, 2012, 07:16 AM // 07:16   #86
kazi_saki
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Hey I'm a vet player who's back in the game after 1.5 years. Thanks for reorienting me with the better hero team builds.

I was already getting a tad lost from all the new skill updates hahaha.

Awesome work!
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Old May 02, 2012, 07:47 AM // 07:47   #87
WowThatsMe
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Originally Posted by kazi_saki View Post
Hey I'm a vet player who's back in the game after 1.5 years. Thanks for reorienting me with the better hero team builds.

I was already getting a tad lost from all the new skill updates hahaha.

Awesome work!
This thread is over a year old. Some skill functionalities may have changed since then. Just thought I would let you know.
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