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Old Dec 22, 2012, 02:56 AM // 02:56   #1
jayson
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Default Guild Wars was stagnant?

Quote:
Mike OBrien:

Because ArenaNet (sort of) held a hard line against all VP with GW1 -- no VP ever, year after year -- and it wasn't that fun. It was stagnant.
Do people agree with this? Was getting to level 20 not enough for most players? I know fom my personal experience, getting to 20 was only a small portion of the interest that Guild Wars had for me. The overall story, the monsters, the weapons and skins and the mix of classes and skills is what has kept me playing since the start. To me new stories and new lands would get me to purchase a new expansion.

Extra food for thought:
I know that a lot of people will immediately jump on the "too many skills" wagon but if there was ever an expansion or new campaign, could players accept all of the new lands with existing skills? What about not having new classes? Could people do without that?
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:10 AM // 03:10   #2
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I don't agree at all about the game being stagnant. The only reason I stopped playing GW was because I was burnt out. Played for a good 4 years with no break. It's the first--and the longest--MMO I've played. And I'm back now after a few years' break.

As for too many skills, it's difficult to judge since I was playing since about a month after launch. So, I naturally only had Proph at first, was gradually introduced to the skills in Factions and Nightfall. I never had a problem, but the noob areas do a great job introducing how skills work, I thought.

It could have been ANet were the ones who had a hard time keeping the skills and profs balanced with more and more combos available.

I'd most likely buy a new xpac to GW if there was one on offer. But I'd DEFINITELY do it with new classes, new character creation, or even new skills.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 05:00 AM // 05:00   #3
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One important thing to always keep in mind is that developers are HORRIBLE at reviewing their own game(s) for two reasons:

1. They spend most of their time developing their game(s) instead of actually playing. They are too blinded by "how things should be" (which they think they know because they made the game) to see "how things actually are." Sometimes games can turn out completely different from what developers expected and it's a real shame when they don't even see it themselves.

2. They poured too much of their time, energy, and hope into the game and can not objectively judge it. There's just too much emotional investment that can easily block out any balanced and logical reasoning. It's like asking a parent to judge their child, of course they are going to be biased.

And this isn't a stab at Arena-Net, it applies to all developers that ever made a video-game.

Now, Guild Wars was based on the simple premise that people should be playing a video-game because it's fun, not because it's their job. It threw away the absurd concept of grinding for pixels and simply focused on being fun, strategic, and accessible. There was still some optional grind that was available (PvP titles, Treasure Hunter, Wisdom etc.) but they all had a minimal effect and most were purely cosmetic. I really liked this system, I thought it was brilliant. But the only thing that made it stagnant was the lack of updates such as WiK and WoC. I don't need new skills or new professions (and really, I don't think there are any roles left that can filled), I would just like some new, interesting enemies and situations.

Also, would it really be that hard to make the WiK and WoC quests repeatable? The Battle for LA is tons of fun.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 06:04 AM // 06:04   #4
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an expansion without new professions and new skills=sorrows furnace---probably the BEST expansion they did!!! would I PAY for something like they H3ll YEAH!!!
I dont need new classes or skills...new maps and new quests are great (heck look at how well/poorly wik and wic did).....what would bring people back in::::

THE REALMS OF THE OTHER GODS!!!

we have been bitcching about that since....2005!

I have been playing almost daily for over 8 years, LOVE the game (HATE gw2 cant get into it, has no replay for me, etc...lost what I felt gw IS).... I am STILL making new characters and playing thru the stories....I am not a fan of leveling so getting to 20 fast and getting on with the questing/missions is what I love about this game.

Yeah the devs need to step back and see what is going on in the world outside of their little bubble...people are still playing the original guildwars, still buying it and still getting slots and such....and NOT just for the pathetic 'rewards' it offers in the other game either.

more content YES!!!!!!!!!!!~~~!!!
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 10:10 AM // 10:10   #5
Mintha Syl
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First of all I greatly agree with you all.
But for the quote I didn't quite understand sorry <.< What does VP mean? What was the context of the sentence?
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 10:17 AM // 10:17   #6
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They're forgetting that skills, skill balances and the addition of new skills pretty much made up their "progression" though. Even a casual player would have been through tens of builds for themselves, and many for each hero, each time making them stronger/faster/better.

GW2 has a much harder task to capture that same sort of progression since half the bar is locked down and the other half has a very limited single class skill pool to pull from. I know why they wanted to go that route (easier to balance) but it also stripped a lot of fun from max level play.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 10:29 AM // 10:29   #7
Ayuhmii Shanbwa
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leveling in many MMO's is important, but in GW its more important what to do with your lvl 20 (attribute points and skills and such)

"too many skills" is something i actually like, as i then can make more different chars with same profs, and change my builds everytime, keep trying stuff til you're satisfied (which i still am not)

new skills and profs? no thx, we have enough profs, AND we have the possibility to use 2 of em, and change our 2ndary
as for skills, yes.... but then old skills in a new skin (new functionality), but only skills which really are worthless for regular pve, as i dont care about farming (look at shadow form, i'd like it becoming stronger and better to use for normal pve, but it gets changed/nerfed cuz of farmers)

some more pve-only skills would be fun, as we can only have 3 on our bars, but with more we could make more builds

and i'd love more pve splits, so that pvp can stay pvp, and pve can be pve in its own way

anyway, no need to lvl more, gives us an opportunity to find more goals, and gives us the space to build our chars sooner than training all way to lvl 60 or even 80

btw, whats "VP" ?

new expansions really would do alot to me, as GW is the only game i keep playing
i cant find myself to buy GW2 for many reasons (got a few more in the last few days), and playing PWi really starts to bore me to death (having low lvls compared to almost all nice people i found there, so being behind a huge lot)

i'd love to see new areas made from the old non-used parts on the maps, and doesnt need to be a bridge from GW to GW2, imo... people should also need a reason to follow GW2 expansions
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 12:40 PM // 12:40   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintha Syl View Post
First of all I greatly agree with you all.
But for the quote I didn't quite understand sorry <.< What does VP mean? What was the context of the sentence?
VP stands for "vertical progression"
The quote was taken from a thread in GW2Guru discussing vertical progression versus horizontal progression and the benefits and drawbacks of both. So it was Mike OBrien who claims that the very game he helped to create eventually became stagnant because players couldn't go past level 20.

Now the way I see it if players were at level 20 (or the equivalent of what that represents) from the start, we would've had far more content to play with all along with all mobs set to play against parties of 8 right out of Old Ascalon. The acquiring of skills and attribute points could've been what players worked for to increase their build diversity instead of worrying about getting to level 20 and leaving portions of content behind because it no longer offered a challenge. Plus people would still be able to acquire weapons and armor skins. All cosmetic of course

Anet eventually added in the armors from all lower level areas to fill out armor selections. Just smart thinking.

Quote:
From raspberry jam in the GW2 thread.
But vertical progression isn't growth. It's apparent growth that doesn't actually do anything but count up stats that is put against other counted up stats...
Well said.

Last edited by jayson; Dec 22, 2012 at 12:46 PM // 12:46..
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 01:25 PM // 13:25   #9
Mintha Syl
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Ok I understand and agree, and also agree with teh above quote from other forum.

From how I see it, as someone already said, vertical progression makes a game look more like a chore. You log in and say: meh I don't really feel like doing this thing, but I have to lvl up so...let's do this even if totally unfun and more like an unpayed job.
And at the same time you can't really say because you don't have to level up you have nothing to do...like all the hard to die players show. This game adds a whole new layer. In leveling up games you just spend ages getting to cap and geared up...and after that what? You have nothing to do till the cap is increased again. Which is stagnant-gaming. And for grind lovers, gw has that too as optional, just you're not obliged to grind, you can't just log whenever and do what you enjoy instead of constatly having to run after something.
I do play Aion, and I felt much relieved when I hit lvl cap, cause I thought I was finally free to enjoy the full content and still do only things I find fun...but I didn't consider in a game like that gearing up takes just as long and it's another chore, and until you do that still you aren't free. In guild wars I've never felt compelled to do anything unfun so that I could get to something else...safe maybe a few annoying coops which are fast anyway so w/e.

And honestly I don't get why people on gw wants to et to 20 quickly leaving content behind...I even feel ascalon with all those charrs and party limitation, if done at the right level, is quite challenging and fun, sure more challenging then the rest of prophecies, so why rush to look for challenges?

Sure it became a bit stagnant cause of the lack of updates, but it has nothing to do with game concept and mechanics. I'm sure sad they abandoned sorrow's furnace, that's a great place and sure I would have liked something like it, or having it expanded...all that story for nothing. Now that you made me think about it, i'll have to run it again lol.

/longwalloftextsorry
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 03:02 PM // 15:02   #10
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It's only stagnant because there was a lack of stepping stones from pve to pvp. Anet probably underestimated the "pve mentality" and how challenging it would be to break peoples habits and stepping out of your comfort zone. In a complex system as gw is it might not even be possible, but IMO clearly too much focus was given to the pure pve side of the game on the one side and the wishes of the top pvp segment on the other.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 08:32 PM // 20:32   #11
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I never quite got the need to move over to pvp either...I just dont enjoy beating the snog out of other people=not fun. I enjoy doing missions, quests and such, fighting things along the way.

If the game was stagnant it is due to the people who created it making it thus. I enjoy the game STILL...I do enjoy playing the lower levels areas (not as much as the higher ones), and when the made factions and nightfall they took this into consideration--there is much more content past leveling up in both chapters than the first. Eye was completely made for high levels....so where is the need for 'vp' and gaining higher levels?????
Many parts of the original game are geared for max level characters, if they just make more of these then no one really cares that level 20 is max.


(I think the reason that people want to be max level is the same reason kids all want to be grown-ups: its much more fun to be at the max level and play than still having leveling to do. Think about it, when you were in grade school, you wanted to be in high school, while in high school you wanted to be in college....in college, well, you just wanted to be 21 at which point you could do anything you wanted to. Now lots of people enjoy being a kid, while many people would rather be an adult).
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 09:47 PM // 21:47   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cosyfiep View Post
I never quite got the need to move over to pvp either...I just dont enjoy beating the snog out of other people=not fun. I enjoy doing missions, quests and such, fighting things along the way.
On the pve bit I agree with you completely. There is no need for a level grind, the natural desire for "achievement" can also be met through expanding storyline, areas, new skills, monsters etc. I guess this would mean "horizontal progression" as opposed to "vp". (Which I originally read as "vice president" - I guess you get a little bit nerdier every day.)

But there is no wonder if people find pve stagnant over time, it lies in the definition of pve. There are only so many ways the monsters can pose a challenge without making quests impossible. Once the "code" is cracked it becomes boring. In technical terms pve is not a complex system, it is perhaps advanced with difficult monsters but they don't adapt. In pvp you have a complex system where the environment consisting of other people adapt to your actions. Players don't let you "farm" them like the banshees in the underworld.

Of course I can not easily convince you that pvp is fun and you are wrong because your mind is set and you are dealing with self-deception. Without writing a thesis on the human psyche I hope it can be grasped that the human mind is exceptionally good at defending pre-set beliefs even when faced with overwhelming evidence of being in error. (Try using logic with a religious believer, conspiracy theorist or doomsday prophet.)

You say pvp is not fun (for you) and that "you don't enjoy beating the snog out of other people". First of all I don't think you have done much pvp at all. Second I don't think you have done much snogbeating the times you have tried it either. Mind you I am not aiming at taunting your skills in pvp. But I pick up the scent of someone who is full of the aforementioned pre-set beliefs and a lack of experience. If you DID beat the snog out of people you WOULD find pvp fun. Just as beating monsters make pve fun. If a mission is so hard that you can't beat it it's disheartening and unless you figure out "the code" you eventually give up. Fortunately pve lets you do just that quite easily since the monsters don't adapt. When you lose in pvp the same effect sets in but naturally makes it so much easier to give up. And again since the human mind is built to protect yourself it might not tell you that you did bad, but might give you excuses to explain just why you failed. "I am REALLY good at pvp but I CHOOSE not to because it's not fun", "I would pvp but I can't find good enough people to play with", "The rewards aren't good enough, I prefer the uw speed clears". These are all excuses but they are potent ones because they are internally constructed to protect your self-image. Naturally very few people are willing to admit that they are excuses and if you confront people they can get quite hostile. Naturally.

Second on your inexperience. The fact that you mention "beating the snog out of others" as the only factor of pvp tells me you are missing 50% of the equation. It's not JUST beating others, but it's very much a cooperative element too. Having a good team, finding good synergy with others, being able to get along with on a personal level and finding people who share the same commitment to improve over time are at least as important as the satisfaction of snogbeating others. I bet many of the pve addicts have social issues as well. After all computer games are dominated by introverts or people who prefer the safety of a virtual environment to the harsh social realities of "real life". Choosing the comfort of fighting familiar monsters over the challenges of dealing with other living people in pvp.

But we are social creatures. We do want recognition from our peers, in fact I'd say it's the ONLY motivating factor in peoples lives. Everything we do from birth to death is related to fitting in, following norms and morals, trying to be respected or seen. Again pve provides this comfort zone, you can brag about your achievements but there is no one to call you out on your mistakes in the process. Pvp can be quite unforgiving. Many people can't or won't deal with this. It's natural, but I'm trying to argue it's not good. You SHOULD expose yourselves to the uncertainty of pvp because pve will eventually become stagnant. To keep the game "fun" you need to be challenged.

My argument is that anet put too little emphasis on such "stepping stones" that could lure people out of the comfortable pve to the fun of pvp. I'd wager 99% of gw population never experienced the true fun in pvp because they gave up before getting there. I'm not blaming the players here, I don't expect people to jump straight from uwsc to pvp uw(heroes ascent). Those who did probably lost all desire for pvp forever and crawled back to pve or quit the game for good. Areas such as alliance battles, costume brawl or perhaps team arenas were good stepping stones. They were neglected and ridiculed from both top and bottom. Big mistake.

I should know for I was a pver once too. I had a friend who left for pvp and I dared not follow. Using voice communication seemed scary since I'm a bit older and didn't really like the idea of being yelled at by teenagers. I would routinely get called "noob" and such in RA and couldn't find a group in HA. Sound familiar? Probably. So after years and years of stagnant pve I finally dared to join a gvg guild, vented up and had the most fun in a computer game to date. The two worlds just aren't comparable. From someone who has "transcended" both worlds let me tell you: pve is static and boring while pvp is challenging and fun. On top of that it also teaches you something about human interaction, human psychology and true improvement both in terms of gaming skills, teamwork and self-development.

Geezez christ I can't believe I wrote all this. Merry Christmas everyone! And if you are a muslim: Happy holiday!
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 10:21 PM // 22:21   #13
Mintha Syl
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Ok I think in your long post there's much of presumption (no offense meant eh), since your whole long logic can be resumed in "if you don't like pvp it's cause you're bad at it" and "pve is running away from life and people". And you said yourself someone else being wrong just because she doesn't share your way to think, which would imply your thoughts are absolute and there can be no other truth. That looks like a religion to me.
Let me tell you this. Some people may not like pvp just cause they don't. It's like someone coming to you and saying: I don't like oranges. And you saying: that's probably because you have only eaten a few of them and probably you haven't even eaten them the right way. You don't accept someone not liking the taste of oranges.
For me, personally, pve is a wonderful travel through amazing landscapes, following stories, and having the challenge of fights (yes, pve can be challenging if you want it to be) while possibly cooperating, strategizing and geenrally having fun with other people. While pvp, for me, it's a group of persons running around in a small area with not much to see in, playing dog and cat, and I see it much more as going against other people then with. I find absolutely nothing interesting or fun in doing such a thing. And if you want to add some social analysis here...I find the great pleasure due to beating another person can be pretty puerile. For me fun is going through something, not humiliating someone and feeling "pro".

Quote:
Originally Posted by cosyfiep View Post
(I think the reason that people want to be max level is the same reason kids all want to be grown-ups: its much more fun to be at the max level and play than still having leveling to do. Think about it, when you were in grade school, you wanted to be in high school, while in high school you wanted to be in college....in college, well, you just wanted to be 21 at which point you could do anything you wanted to. Now lots of people enjoy being a kid, while many people would rather be an adult).
This I can really understand, but I see it more applicable in games where there's an actual leveling progress. But in this game, you just get to max without even noticing, you just do your things and in a glimpse you're there. So...well I guess tat's still what you said but taken do drastic limits :P

Last edited by Mintha Syl; Dec 22, 2012 at 10:26 PM // 22:26..
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 10:30 PM // 22:30   #14
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And I liked them both

PvE because of putting skills and a team together, experimenting, reaching goals like vanquishing, HM dungeons, greens farming, etc.

PvP because of putting skills and/or a team together, experimenting, winning or losing, always learning.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 11:01 PM // 23:01   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard View Post
Once the "code" is cracked it becomes boring
First off, let's now confuse "stagnant" with "boring." They are 2 different things and PvP has been just as stagnant as PvE because of the lack of updates. So, from an objective point of view we can all say that GW has become stagnant because the word, by definition, means something that is not growing or changing. However, what is "boring" is far more subjective and I would imagine that, if there is something that you find to be fun, you would play it multiple times, even if it was "stagnant" or it never changed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard View Post
In pvp you have a complex system where the environment consisting of other people adapt to your actions.
You still get to experience those things in FA and JQ, which I would consider great stepping stones for people who may be intimidated by PvP. The only difference is you generally fight with and against NPC's along with real players, which gives the game a little more structure, and you can join a match without making a party, which is far more convenient for people with tighter schedules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard View Post
If you DID beat the snog out of people you WOULD find pvp fun.
Yes, thank you for pointing out that why most people don't like to PvP. Notice how you didn't mention the thrill of a close match or the unpredictability of an interesting strategy, you just enjoy making others lose. And it's sad to see this kind of sadistic behaviour in any online game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard View Post
Just as beating monsters make pve fun.
Maybe I enjoy shooting things, destroying them, or blowing them up. Does that mean I'm supposed to enjoy them even more when I'm doing it to a real person?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sankt Hallvard View Post
These are all excuses but they are potent ones because they are internally constructed to protect your self-image. [...]
After all computer games are dominated by introverts or people who prefer the safety of a virtual environment to the harsh social realities of "real life".[...]
Everything we do from birth to death is related to fitting in, following norms and morals, trying to be respected or seen.[...]
I'd wager 99% of gw population never experienced the true fun in pvp because they gave up before getting there.[...]
From someone who has "transcended" both worlds let me tell you
Wow, dude, you know everything.

/bow

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Merry Christmas everyone! And if you are a muslim: Happy holiday!
And all the other religions can go eff themselves.
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Old Dec 22, 2012, 11:15 PM // 23:15   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mintha Syl View Post
Ok I think in your long post there's much of presumption (no offense meant eh), since your whole long logic can be resumed in "if you don't like pvp it's cause you're bad at it" and "pve is running away from life and people". And you said yourself someone else being wrong just because she doesn't share your way to think, which would imply your thoughts are absolute and there can be no other truth. That looks like a religion to me.
Let me tell you this. Some people may not like pvp just cause they don't. It's like someone coming to you and saying: I don't like oranges. And you saying: that's probably because you have only eaten a few of them and probably you haven't even eaten them the right way. You don't accept someone not liking the taste of oranges.
Hi!

Let me start by saying that I appreciate your post and your tone in general. Not overly offended or defensive as I might have expected. There is some truth in your oranges analogy as well, and I expected such a reply. Avoiding seeming like I'm telling people what to think and what to like is nigh impossible if I wanted to get my message across so I'll just give it to you straight: You are right. But you are also wrong.

In many areas of life a taste may need to be acquired, in fact it might be the norm. Think back when you were a baby. You probably didn't like blue cheese, beer or seafood. While now you might love those things. (You might not, but for sake of argument pretend or substitute with more fitting examples.) Your music taste has also probably changed (maybe even evolved?) over time. If we get to "finer arts" like appreciation of wine or art proper taste nearly requires an education. Notice how you will bump into people who say "wine is wine" or "I just prefer beer, plain and simple". That is fine, but this is also the fine point in my argument. For if you HAVE made an effort at learning and enjoying wine you notice the small differences and the plethora of flavors that you previously didn't. So in a way it sometimes CAN be valid to say that "you just aren't the oranges the right way". I was hoping to use my own experience as part of the argument having done both strictly pve for several years and then switching entirely to pvp.

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Originally Posted by Mintha Syl View Post
For me, personally, pve is a wonderful travel through amazing landscapes, following stories, and having the challenge of fights (yes, pve can be challenging if you want it to be) while possibly cooperating, strategizing and geenrally having fun with other people. While pvp, for me, it's a group of persons running around in a small area with not much to see in, playing dog and cat, and I see it much more as going against other people then with. I find absolutely nothing interesting or fun in doing such a thing. And if you want to add some social analysis here...I find the great pleasure due to beating another person can be pretty puerile. For me fun is going through something, not humiliating someone and feeling "pro".
I recognize everything you say, I too have fond memories of pve. From pre-searing ascalon, getting out of the shithole that was post-searing and experiencing the "Green Rush" with the introduction of sorrows furnace. Cooperating to get through Thunderhead Keep, exploring the wonderful snowy areas etc. It was all great. But when the content runs out it gets stagnant. Proper pvp is a natural next step and from experience I am telling you it's a step worth taking. The joys of pve, wonderful as they were, pale in comparison to the joys of proper pvp.

Let me make a distinction between random and proper pvp here. I'm willing to bet my stacks of zkeys that the majority of players in gw associate "pvp" with the horrors of RA and inability to find a team in HA. The way RA "teaches" people what pvp "is" is a sure way to turn people off. And certainly here the fun is mostly what you describe as puerile, beating another person and taking pleasure in others misfortune. Thanks for teaching me a new word (puerile!) btw.

What I'm getting at is that your perception of pvp as conveyed here, as I argue most others as well, is plain wrong. It's true for certain areas but totally inappropriate to describe other areas. Areas that most gw players have never encountered and sadly never will.

I'll give you that you run around in the same areas with little new to discover in ways of scenery. But the same holds for pve when content runs out. Technically there is nothing opposed to moving pvp to pve areas and you could have as varied maps as there are in pve. There may be some "dog and cat" involved but it's highly strategic, you don't run around for the sake of it. If someone is merely running around aimlessly that's your chance to take advantage of that, and isn't it satisfying to outwit an opponent? Of course the goal is to beat your opponent in some way, but as I said the cooperative element in proper pvp is more important. Knowing when to commit to a fight, when to retreat, "reading" the battlefield can give you intense experiences and a whole new "level" of fun. About "feeling pro" this certainly feels like something negative, but that's not necessarily so. Feeling satisfaction that you beat or outsmarted an opponent is natural and nothing to feel ashamed about. A slight taunt of your opponent might not be a bad thing either if it spurs him to try harder next time or improve his game. I fully acknowledge that this can sometimes turn in an "ugly" direction but if you have picked your team carefully an opponent taunting you is easily shrugged off with the support of your teammates. Most of the "pros" praising their own skills I find is usually a phenomenon found in the lower end (RA) and again not appropriate to describe "proper pvp".

How do you feel when (assuming your are american in this case) an american sprinter wins the gold for USA in the olympics? Are you enjoying the moment or feeling sorry for the 7 losers in the other lanes? There are of course some people with little competitiveness in them and pvp IS competitive. But if you are taking delight in doing missions or achieving things in pve I'd say you could also find pleasure in pvp. Proper pvp.

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First off, let's now confuse "stagnant" with "boring." They are 2 different things and PvP has been just as stagnant as PvE because of the lack of updates. So, from an objective point of view we can all say that GW has become stagnant because the word, by definition, means something that is not growing or changing. However, what is "boring" is far more subjective and I would imagine that, if there is something that you find to be fun, you would play it multiple times, even if it was "stagnant" or it never changed.
And here we have someone taking offense. You are right about me confusing the two words. Truth be told I take them to be synonymous for the sake of this discussion, but if greater clarity can be achieved by the distinction it's fine by me. Certainly both pve and pvp are stagnant, there are no more new content and skill updates are virtually non-existant. Yet you must take into account what I spent a few words trying to explain earlier how pvp is a complex system with adapting opponents. In this regard pvp is not stagnant while pve is.

You make a good argument about something being fun would be played multiple times. Yet I'm not fully convinced. I see people doing extremely repetitive tasks that someone with a distance to the activity would not hesitate to describe as "boring". Is only the subjective opinion valid? I've done my bit of farming in pve and in hindsight I must admit it was extremely dull. I can't recall having felt joy ever doing it but I did it nonetheless. You tell yourself you "need" to do it in order to achieve something else, or you want to come up with a more efficient way of farming than the other farmers etc. No, I think the "fun" is related to something else. Why do people pop sweets and alcohols in game? Surely clicking the same item over and over and over must qualify as being objectively boring? But they added a TITLE to this activity so your mind rewards your actions because it mimics an "achievement". Without the title would anyone click repetitively for sweets and alcohol? Almost certainly not.


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You still get to experience those things in FA and JQ, which I would consider great stepping stones for people who may be intimidated by PvP. The only difference is you generally fight with and against NPC's along with real players, which gives the game a little more structure, and you can join a match without making a party, which is far more convenient for people with tighter schedules.
FA and JQ are such stepping stones, yes. Unfortunately they don't take you very far. It's easily accessible and the pve aspect seems familiar and "safe", nothing wrong with having pve elements in an instance while still calling it pvp. Unfortunately the easy match-up also blocks you from experiencing the depth of cooperation and being able to learn from the feedback of others. This becomes apparent when you look at how people play the format. Over all these years very little progress has been made, people still stick to their own ideas and sub-optimal strategies. Adjustment to team composition or allied skill/playstyle is non-existant. So another stepping stone is required.

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Yes, thank you for pointing out that why most people don't like to PvP. Notice how you didn't mention the thrill of a close match or the unpredictability of an interesting strategy, you just enjoy making others lose. And it's sad to see this kind of sadistic behaviour in any online game.
Do not confuse me not mentioning things as them not being important. I don't "just enjoy making others lose", in fact I'd say that's hardly a factor at all. But of course in order for someone to win, someone must lose. When you beat a mission in pve the monsters must naturally have lost as well. YOUR feeling is the same I expect: happiness that you won. Is it sadistic? It would be an interesting thought to explore for sure but in our every day lives we take it for granted without calling it "sadistic behaviour". When a new restaurant opens up it might infringe on an already established restaurant and steal their costumers and income. We base our economy on this market, there are winners and losers. Would you say that the staff of McDonalds are sadistic when they win larger market shares at the expense of Burger King? When you are playing Yatzee with your family for Easter is the winner frowned upon, suspected of sadism? Winning and enjoying the momentary good feeling it gives does not equal sadistic behaviour. Or perhaps it does, but that is a question for a deeper philosophical discussion. Most people wouldn't use "sadistic behaviour" as lightly as you do when describing real life phenomena such as markets, job applicants or athletes with clear winners and losers.

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And all the other religions can go eff themselves.
Well frankly speaking Christianity and Islam can go eff themselves too, but I'm making an effort at being congenial and diplomatic in these times of peace and reflection.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 12:04 AM // 00:04   #17
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Well, he is right that they "held a hard line". Would GW1 have been a worse game if it had some vertical progression? (And no, boring gear-grinding is not the only way to design VP). GW2, in comparison, seems to offer or attempts to offer an healthy balance between vertical and horizontal - it never goes too far with one at the cost of the other.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 12:06 AM // 00:06   #18
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actually I take no offense, and if this discussion continues along the lines of pvp vs pve I will close the thread as that is HAS been beaten to death too many times to count here on this very forum....and the end point of those arguments was:

some people LIKE pve, some like pvp, some like both....personally I LIKE pve and do not like pvp.

(yes I do have experience in pvp in other games....you kill someone, they decide to take a vendetta out on you, you kill them again and again and again ....until finally sometime down the road while you are beating on someone else they finally get a kill shot in on you and announce they are SOOOO MUCH BETTER THAN YOU because they did...ugh. No I do not enjoy killing others, I do not find that fun, pvp is NOT FUN FOR ME, pve is...I am not the person who sits there are tries to figure out the math behind what the plants are doing, I also dont count cards at the casino either, I want to relax while I play games that is why they are called GAMES. Pvp is NOT relaxing for me, it is frustrating and BORING).


now back to the discussion of guildwars being stagnant because of a lack of view point (thats what I thought vp stood for )......
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 12:27 AM // 00:27   #19
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if this discussion continues along the lines of pvp vs pve I will close the thread
Yes, your forums are already too heavily used and the good arguments too abundant. Time to finally crack down on this abuse.

I'm sorry you felt like I was hijacking your thread. I also take note that my arguments fell on deaf ears or that I might be an elitist snob trying to force my views onto others. Be that as it may I can't keep arguing under threat of censorship. At the risk of sounding overly dramatic I will withdraw from these forums for good. I don't think I've ever been able to continue through a single discussion without it being locked or me receiving an infraction warning. I'm sure you will do just fine without me.

And with that I take my leave. Have fun and enjoy your lives and gaming adventures.
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Old Dec 23, 2012, 01:28 AM // 01:28   #20
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I wouldn't say it is stagnant as for titles as one mentioned.The reason there are so many skills is if someone bought one campaign eg Factions and didn't have the others so they have offer more skills for that player and for those who have al camps will be alble to buy cap them as well.

Devs never really play their own games and I like the VP or linear progression as you know where you are going.
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