BiP and BR on heroes

[Relyk]

I've always wondered this. There is no reason other heroes on the team need BiP unless you purposely give them builds they can't manage energy well. Maybe it's the low investment or that you can bring it on an N/Rt, but you have so many other more useful elites. Blood Ritual isn't as bad but it still seems like a waste of points and a skill slot to compensate for bad playing.

So why do people use Blood is Power and Blood Ritual?

[MisterB]

AI is bad at energy management, and those skills are band-aids to the problem.

[AndrewSX]

Also, using a BR (or better a Bip) hero allows you to drop half of the skills devoted to e-management to other heroes (like mesmers or monk, those usually have 2 among Pdrain-leeh-WNWN) and use that space for moar dmg/heal/whatnot.

Also, i've seen most ppl use Bip as elite of a N/rt healer, which makes sense to me, because the biggest issue of that build is the lack of good resto elites. Puttin few points in Blood allows to use Bip effectively, and solve some problems.

[3.142]

Originally Posted by AndrewSX

Also, using a BR (or better a Bip) hero allows you to drop half of the skills devoted to e-management to other heroes (like mesmers or monk, those usually have 2 among Pdrain-leeh-WNWN) and use that space for moar dmg/heal/whatnot.

Also, i've seen most ppl use Bip as elite of a N/rt healer, which makes sense to me, because the biggest issue of that build is the lack of good resto elites. Puttin few points in Blood allows to use Bip effectively, and solve some problems.

It lets you drop E manage skills but it also forces you to lose an elite slot to do so. 33% health sac isn't fun either.

BR makes slightly more sense but i'm not sure how much the AI use it and whether they use it well. Oh, and you have then specced blood magic which is pretty much useless in pve.

[Wenspire]

BR is a horrible skill to use for a hero if you plan on running multiple heroes with EN-problems. This would, in short, render that hero (using BR) useless since he would be spending most of his time running from hero to hero using a slow skill.

If one really wants a battery, I would highly suggest using BiP instead. Personally, I would want to rely on neither.

[Damian Manson]

Funnily enough I was glad we got the 7 hero update just so I could use a BiP hero lol and drop those pesky self sustaining energy skills on every other hero that needed them, yes its slightly risky if the BiP goes down but I think it more than makes up for it with the availability of so many more skills in the team make up. I find it funny that you think using BiP is a stand in for people being bad players but I wont go further with that, I know my team works incredibly well in most circumstances with the few exceptions where you need to change up a little or a lot for obvious reasons imposed by the areas/missions/dungeons that your about to complete or even if you just fancy a change.

What I'm getting at is if your team works out better because you can afford to drop an elite to gain so many more skills that makes it worth while to what your about to do then why not I don't swear by it but in my own play style it works out the best.

P.S Agreed with above BR on a hero Imo is a horrible skill for reasons stated above although it was usefull on Eve back in the days of henchman only lol :P

Also this is based on me being on my main as a Derv so some of the the bloodline can come in handy so ties in fairly well with that respect.

[Lanier]

Having BiP in my party allows me to almost entirely drop e-management on my mesmer, smiter, and other chars. From experience with BiP in my party, I can tell you that the 33% health loss really isn't a big deal at all when you have OP defenses in your party.

[Pee V Pee]

Originally Posted by Wenspire

BR is a horrible skill to use for a hero if you plan on running multiple heroes with EN-problems. This would, in short, render that hero (using BR) useless since he would be spending most of his time running from hero to hero using a slow skill.

Perfect job for an SoS hero, or several other builds that don't require much time to be spent casting/attacking to do their jobs effectively.

[Wenspire]

I'd rather have my SoS casting SplinterWeapon more often. But it would be less detrimental on an SoS compared to almost all other roles.

[Daesu]

Originally Posted by Relyk

So why do people use Blood is Power and Blood Ritual?

Because a mesmer's typical energy management skills are conditional and they sometime misses (yes I noticed that they miss WNWN sometimes because HM monsters cast and attack so quickly). WNWN doesn't give much energy back anyway, even when they succeed (resultant 6e @ Inspiration 8/9/10). PDrain is better but heroes are not perfect with their interrupts either. Having multiple PDrain with multiple mesmers on your team can also cause both of them to try to interrupt the same spell. More energy for your mesmers, leads to more spamming which leads to more damage. More damage leads to higher DPS, a faster, and safer clear.

If you want to bring a BiP, because of its high cost, it makes more sense if you at least bring it to 13 Blood breakpoint for +6 energy regen. This means your BiPer should be a primary necro. If you can't bring your blood magic to that level, then you might as well consider BR which doesn't require a high level Blood.

If you only need to bring 1 energy management skill per mesmer, like me, and all your mesmers have more than enough energy throughout all their battles then sure, you don't really need a BiPer. But I don't think this is the case most of the time in HM elite areas. People tend to assume that the mesmer's energy management skills alone would ALWAYS give them the necessary energy whenever they need it which is not true. The more mesmers you have in your team, the more of a difference having a BiPer would make to your team.

[Jeydra]

Originally Posted by Relyk

I've always wondered this. There is no reason other heroes on the team need BiP unless you purposely give them builds they can't manage energy well. Maybe it's the low investment or that you can bring it on an N/Rt, but you have so many other more useful elites. Blood Ritual isn't as bad but it still seems like a waste of points and a skill slot to compensate for bad playing.

So why do people use Blood is Power and Blood Ritual?

That's why: you purposely give them builds that can't manage energy well, exploiting the fact that you have a BiP in your party.

[HigherMinion]

Originally Posted by Jeydra

That's why: you purposely give them builds that can't manage energy well, exploiting the fact that you have a BiP in your party.

So you sacrifice one elite skill and about 3-6 attributes in Blood, for what?

Say you have two mesmers in your team, both with the standard PD/WNWN and maybe even Drain Enchantment. You can drop all of those for *something else* and you can drop the attributes in Inspiration. It *could* be worth one elite slot for those things. But still... 33% sac QQ.

I don't know how well heroes use BiP, so, someone tell me.

[Daesu]

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

So you sacrifice one elite skill and about 3-6 attributes in Blood, for what?

Sacrifice? I don't see it that way. If not BiP then what better elite would you suggest that I bring on my N/Rt healer? Xinrae's weapon is meh and overrides Splinter weapon and weapon of warding. Pain of Disenchantment is an elite enchant remover which I don't need unless maybe in certain areas.

BiP allows me to only bring 1 energy management skill on each of my 4 mesmers thus saving me 4 skill slots in my team. Any alternative elite choices for my N/Rt that can provide such an impact?

I don't know how well heroes use BiP, so, someone tell me.

They use it pretty well to me.

[FoxBat]

Originally Posted by Daesu

Any alternative elite choices for my N/Rt that can provide such an impact?

Aura of the Lich, although I still think BiP is pretty good.

[Daesu]

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Aura of the Lich, although I still think BiP is pretty good.

I like Aotl but when you bring melee minions, you start wondering if you should also bring Death Nova to make them worthwhile. And if you bring Death Nova you have to deal with the annoying slow down of your team when moving from place to place unless you are prepared to micro it on/off. So I have decided to bring BiP instead.

[3.142]

Originally Posted by Daesu

BiP allows me to only bring 1 energy management skill on each of my 4 mesmers thus saving me 4 skill slots in my team.

If your BiP is using it on 4 people does he ever just outright kill himself?

I'm not convinced the added pressure on healers is worth the energy, adding to that you will probably have to BiP your other healer because he is spamming on you alot more and if you're then using it on 5 people that's alot less healing available for everyone else.

Assuming you have 500 health because you're holding PwK you will deal a total of 825 dmage to yourself with those 5 BiPs.

Assuming you have an ST or SYG or SY or some other from of defense no one else in your team will be taking a fraction of that damage.

Good elite choice for an N/Rt resto is imo, Icy Veins. You get to take 15 SR too so you can spam forevah.

In the extra Mesmer slots what do you guys take? All the universally good skills will already be gone.

[AndrewSX]

Remember: if you have a bip in the team, you won't have to worry about healing him the 33% sac. Your healer will have a shit load of energy, casting a couple of direct heals more to keep up the bip isn't much problem.

Also, heroes are quite good at it. They can actually "see" the other members energy and use bip only when under a certain level. Also, they never suicide themselves, they just stop casting it if becomes too risky. Obv a bip is a high priority target for low AL and less hp (right after a bip for example) so you'll have to have prots.


Or use another primary, seen some ppl toying with a P/N bip, due to high AL and additional support trough shouts.

Btw, a good BIp bar could be:
Bip, Sols, 3-4x resto skills (Spirit Light, MbaS, Kaolai, Res - if needed), 2-3x blood support (strip ench, well of blood, blood bond, dark fury, order of pain, mark of fury.....last 4 of them are better for a meele player tho).

[Outerworld]

Originally Posted by 3.142

In the extra Mesmer slots what do you guys take? All the universally good skills will already be gone.

This is the main problem I have with justifying BiP. Without the e-manage skills on the bar you end up running out of skills worth taking to the point where they end up being fillers that can barely justify the slot.

So if anything, my problem with BiP isn't actually an issue with the skill itself (though I do think it's very much a crutch), but rather the lack of decent skills we have due to various buffs or nerfs leaving them in the dust.

[Amy Awien]

How so? Mesmer e-management is almost exclusively in Inspiration, meaning with a BiP/BR necro around your Mesmer heroes wouldn't need to spec into Inspiration

[Daesu]

Originally Posted by 3.142

If your BiP is using it on 4 people does he ever just outright kill himself?

Never. The AI doesn't sac itself to death nowadays, there was a previous update years ago that fixed that. But like everyone said, there is a risk with a BiP because he can possibly take damage immediately after a sac which brings his life low. This risk is generally worth it with the benefits of BiP.

I'm not convinced the added pressure on healers is worth the energy, adding to that you will probably have to BiP your other healer because he is spamming on you alot more and if you're then using it on 5 people that's alot less healing available for everyone else.

If he BiPs other healers then they should not be running out of energy. Each BiP cast gives about 20e, which is more than sufficient to heal back a 33% sac.

Assuming you have 500 health because you're holding PwK you will deal a total of 825 dmage to yourself with those 5 BiPs.

The AI would not cast 5 BiPs continuously like that. First of all, BiP is an enchantment that lasts 10s each time so the AI would not override the same enchantment on the target if the enchantment is still active. Second, it is unlikely that all 5 casters would be low in energy at any one time. Third, the BiPer would have sacced himself to death saccing more life than he has, which the AI would not do.

Assuming you have an ST or SYG or SY or some other from of defense no one else in your team will be taking a fraction of that damage.

SY is not active 100% all the time. SYG is also not active all the time too unless you chain it with another copy or you bring along a paragon with Command@15. Shelter is certainly not active all the time and AI would only consider to recast it when the previous one died.

Good elite choice for an N/Rt resto is imo, Icy Veins. You get to take 15 SR too so you can spam forevah.

The bigger concern with a necro BiPer is more of a health loss than energy loss, so I don't think having a 15 SR is necessary. I have to equip my BiPer with skills to help mitigate the sac, like SoLS, Ghostmirror Light, and PwK.

Despite the fact that Icy Veins is more usable now, it is still far from stellar unless it is used against foes with low cold resistance.

In the extra Mesmer slots what do you guys take? All the universally good skills will already be gone.

Since mesmer direct damage spells are generally spammable and the AI doesn't override the same hexes, having multiple mesmers can work well even with similar builds.