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Old Apr 13, 2012, 11:02 PM // 23:02   #41
Aldric
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Originally Posted by Flash Dilithium View Post
TWhen given the option to take 3 melee professions or 2 melee and 1 turrent ranger, the latter is better than the former. That's the whole point. It condenses opponent damage on fewer people as well as supplying ranged physical damage that rivals that of melee professions.
It doesn't rival a melee damage though, far from it especially when you start adding damage multipliers. Given the choice, a 3rd melee or for ranged an EBSoH spearchucker or casters are all better options.
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 12:20 AM // 00:20   #42
Flash Dilithium
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Originally Posted by Aldric View Post
It doesn't rival a melee damage though, far from it especially when you start adding damage multipliers. Given the choice, a 3rd melee or for ranged an EBSoH spearchucker or casters are all better options.
Incorrect. The turret ranger does comparable damage to most melee builds, more damage than an EBSoH spearchucker and most casters.



This slightly modified for more damage output but slightly slower attack rate. I put in EBSoH because apparently you people only care about DPS instead of utility. 77 DPS is freakin' amazing. I'd really like to see these builds that do more damage. I know SoS rit does but beyond that I really am not seeing any. Please post pic or at least list the skills so i can test it myself. Thanks

Note that I don't have my titles anywhere near max and I'm not drunk for drunken master... my IAS is only 12%.

Last edited by Flash Dilithium; Apr 14, 2012 at 12:50 AM // 00:50..
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 12:51 AM // 00:51   #43
Kunder
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Originally Posted by Flash Dilithium View Post
Incorrect. The turret ranger does comparable damage to most melee builds, more damage than an EBSoH spearchucker and most casters.
Except not, because melee can kill a whole group in a few attacks. Beating spear chuckers also isn't exactly the greatest accomplishment btw. Casters easily do more damage.

Quote:
I put in EBSoH because apparently you people only care about DPS instead of utility.
You realize EBSoH boosts your whole team, right? It's the most important skill on the bar.

Last edited by Kunder; Apr 14, 2012 at 01:02 AM // 01:02..
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 12:55 AM // 00:55   #44
Flash Dilithium
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Originally Posted by Kunder View Post
Except not, because melee can kill a whole group in a few attacks. Beating spear chuckers also isn't exactly the greatest accomplishment btw. Casters easily do more damage.
I just editted the OP with this image. I found a flask of firewater and this is what happened.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kunder
You realize EBSoH boosts your whole team, right? It's the most important skill on the bar.
Give me a build, other than SoS rit, that does higher DPS than this one or stop talking. I realize EBSoH boosts anybody standing in it which is why I didn't have it on my original bar. I assume a caster will bring it, thus I don't need to. It certainly makes a hell of a lot more sense to have a caster with 4 pips of energy regen + e-management bring it than it does for a ranger who relies on expertise. Trying to get anything intelligent through conversation from you is like sucking tar through a straw. Just give me a build that does higher DPS than this or concede that this build is strong.

Last edited by Calista Blackblood; Apr 21, 2012 at 12:10 PM // 12:10..
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 01:46 AM // 01:46   #45
Wenspire
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Here's a sustained spear/pet build; one with ESoH (89DPS over 68sec) and one without (72dps over 81sec). I even get DeepWound and Burning, which I don't think even get calculated! It's not really hard to get that type of single-target DPS.

TBH, it's also hard to consider single target DPS over multi-target in PvE.


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Old Apr 14, 2012, 02:25 AM // 02:25   #46
DRGN
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Originally Posted by Flash Dilithium View Post
Incorrect. The turret ranger does comparable damage to most melee builds, more damage than an EBSoH spearchucker and most casters.

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1...ccascreeny.jpg

This slightly modified for more damage output but slightly slower attack rate. I put in EBSoH because apparently you people only care about DPS instead of utility. 77 DPS is freakin' amazing. I'd really like to see these builds that do more damage. I know SoS rit does but beyond that I really am not seeing any. Please post pic or at least list the skills so i can test it myself. Thanks

Note that I don't have my titles anywhere near max and I'm not drunk for drunken master... my IAS is only 12%.
Are we talking ranged builds, melee builds, or what? Because it's not hard to do that at all with a melee character even without SoH, but trying to do it on a caster with EVAS is a real bitch with the two dummies there
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 02:32 AM // 02:32   #47
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Originally Posted by Flash Dilithium View Post
it's a skill in the game. You can't fault me for using good skills.
I'm just saying that unlike the skills I picked, yours is more well suited to produce false results. Perhaps the best suited skill to produce false results in game.
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 02:39 AM // 02:39   #48
Aldric
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Turret build with 87 DPS over 14secs? Not really a fan of the whole 10-15 second DPS measurements, do it for 180 secs and lets see the results, that how i always test them out

Standard Spear - silly 15sec method gets 100+ , 180sec measurement is ~85-90 usually




Not saying this is a great build, i know its only decent in comparison to many but its fun and reasonably effective with DW/Burning/Bleeding and EBSoH melee support.

Daggers and probably other melee would come out easily sustainable 100+, before you get silly and add SoH and other useful boosts.

ps sweet pet wenspire, not enough to get rid of leftie but i like it
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 02:52 AM // 02:52   #49
Flash Dilithium
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Originally Posted by Aldric View Post
Turret build with 87 DPS over 14secs? Not really a fan of the whole 10-15 second DPS measurements, do it for 180 secs and lets see the results, that how i always test them out

Standard Spear - silly 15sec method gets 100+ , 180sec measurement is ~85-90 usually

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/9089/gw147dh.jpg
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/7038/gw148n.jpg

Not saying this is a great build, i know its only decent in comparison to many but its fun and reasonably effective with DW/Burning/Bleeding and EBSoH melee support.

Daggers and probably other melee would come out easily sustainable 100+, before you get silly and add SoH and other useful boosts.

ps sweet pet wenspire, not enough to get rid of leftie but i like it
I know that. My 18 sec trials were a response to Kunder. If you look at the first couple pages, I initially posted some longer trials.
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 03:02 AM // 03:02   #50
DRGN
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Didn't even bother changing the builds to optimize them for DPS, just ran I normally run sometimes in PvE. Yeah, I probably should have run the Warrior for, but I'm really tired and after doing the other two my fingers were too. I'll run them again tomorrow if you insist. The Dervish might seem low compared to the others, but remember the unique nature of the scythe and all the AoE damage associated with the build from AoHM and Pious Assault and the Deep Wound isn't counted for any builds(though degen actually is, you can test it).

Also I was dicking around with Pyre earlier and forgot to kick him xD. But he's way back there using his shitty starting Hornbow so he's obviously not doing anything. Meh I went and redid it, time to go watch TV





Gabs also posted a Fire Ele on the previous page.

Last edited by DRGN; Apr 14, 2012 at 03:10 AM // 03:10..
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 03:28 AM // 03:28   #51
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Comparing melee damage vs. ranged damage is pretty dumb because ... you know ... one is melee and the other is ranged. Melee is expected to be higher simply because they have to run up to their targets.

Anyway here's the Elementalist equivalent of damage done. It's not vs. the Master of Damage because the MoD can't be killed (i.e. no AP triggers). I'm quite confident that if the MoD did trigger AP Elementalist damage vs. him would exceed 90 DPS. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/e...t10497068.html

If you're interested you can take a hero team out vs. the same mob too and try. I vaguely remember EFGJack posting a Warrior bar that did something like 120 DPS vs. the Master of Damage solo as well. You can try searching the Warrior subforum for it if you want.

Finally I am quite confident a SoGM bar outdamages the Turret R as well, at least in the (completely artificial) case of damage vs. the Master of Damage.

EDIT: Yeah just tried it a SoGM bar easily does >130 DPS vs. the MoD.

Last edited by Jeydra; Apr 14, 2012 at 03:45 AM // 03:45..
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 03:31 AM // 03:31   #52
ogre_jd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wenspire View Post
TBH, it's also hard to consider single target DPS over multi-target in PvE.
Not hard at all. Unless you're in a very closed-in area or are an expert herder, you're not going to be able to take out the squishes at the back at the same time the melees of the spawn are going after your group. AoEs, except maybe for Fire Elementalists, tend to be weaker per hit and per target than single target effects, obviously, so having someone concentrating on the priority targets helps a lot.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Dilithium View Post
Turret Ranger has vastly superior attack rates than any other build in existence. Did you fail to realize that Sundering Attack, Penetrating Attack, and Hunter's Shot are all 1/2 second attacks?
Actually, 1s for Hunter's Shot and 3/4s for Penetrating & Sundering Attack...

----------

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Originally Posted by Kunder View Post
Drunken master = Cons. Duh. Using cons is no different from using excess runes, you pump up your stats illegitimately either way.
Yes, but your way, demonstrated in your image, would make your character almost completely useless in the field.
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 03:48 AM // 03:48   #53
Kunder
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Nope, totally can't maintain my energy level. I'm totally not hitting 60% more DPS over an extended period of time than your build on page 2, Flash. I'll also take this time to mention that I do nearly 30 AoE damage per shot (Ignite arrows), or 3x that with triple shot, which isn't even being counted in the MoD. This is about 1/4th of my overall damage.

That said, DPS calculations over 20s are generally meaningless. Almost no battles in GW last over 20s unless you are with a really, really bad team.

Quote:
EDIT: Yeah just tried it a SoGM bar easily does >130 DPS vs. the MoD.
To be fair though, SoGM takes a long time to setup out of battle. That needs to be included in DPS calculations. It's also hard to get all spirits to attack the same target consistently, so it's not spike damage.

Last edited by Kunder; Apr 14, 2012 at 04:03 AM // 04:03..
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Old Apr 14, 2012, 01:56 PM // 13:56   #54
DRGN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
Comparing melee damage vs. ranged damage is pretty dumb because ... you know ... one is melee and the other is ranged. Melee is expected to be higher simply because they have to run up to their targets.
Well, he said it rivaled melee builds, so I posted some melee builds.
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 03:18 AM // 03:18   #55
Flash Dilithium
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Originally Posted by DRGN View Post
Well, he said it rivaled melee builds, so I posted some melee builds.
It did 87 DPS... so it does rival it, beating out two of the three builds you posted. Considering that it's ranged, that clearly means it's legit.

In response to Kunder's updated statistics where he removed SOME of the superior runes, if you simply removal ALL of the superior runes in exchange for minor runes, like I used... and actually compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges, you will see that my build comes out on top. Complaining about Drunk Master is utterly absurd. It's a skill in the game.

Last edited by Flash Dilithium; Apr 16, 2012 at 03:23 AM // 03:23..
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 08:31 AM // 08:31   #56
Amy Awien
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Originally Posted by Aldric View Post
... Given the choice, a 3rd melee or for ranged an EBSoH spearchucker or casters are all better options.
Spear is not a good choice for a ranger primary, not for utility and not for dps. While base damage and attack speed of the spear look appealing, just about all ranger skills that really add damage are bow-specific - and especially when EBSoH is thrown in bow has more options at delivering damage packets. And a skill like volley (or Barrage) effectively matched with Splinter Weapon on a hero is quite absent from a spearchucker Ranger

The strength of a turret ranger is not in raw DPS but the ability to reach and instantly switch to just about any target on the battle field and take it down fast. If that ability is only needed once per battle, so be it.
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 12:49 PM // 12:49   #57
Jeydra
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Originally Posted by Flash Dilithium View Post
It did 87 DPS... so it does rival it, beating out two of the three builds you posted. Considering that it's ranged, that clearly means it's legit.
It must be noted that those builds are clearly not optimized for damage vs. the MoD, e.g. you can immediately improve the Assassin bar by changing "Finish Him!" for "I Am The Strongest!". The Warrior bar is clearly more focused on keeping "Save Yourselves!" up than on dealing damage, in fact all three melee bars have SY when a build optimized for damage won't have them.

Melee damage is superior to ranged damage. That's just the way it is.

PS: Lol running a completely random and utterly nonsensical Elementalist build, I hit 146 DPS over 16 seconds. Considering the fact that a build "only" needs to work for 20s, maybe I've got my hands on a real gem here ...

Last edited by Jeydra; Apr 16, 2012 at 12:54 PM // 12:54..
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 03:15 PM // 15:15   #58
DRGN
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Originally Posted by Flash Dilithium View Post
It did 87 DPS... so it does rival it, beating out two of the three builds you posted. Considering that it's ranged, that clearly means it's legit.
See, that's funny, because when you posted a screenshot that went past a tiny window that was being used to massively skew the numbers in your favor, your DPS went down to 58, which gets smoked by...a lot of things. And before the "but melee has to run into battle!" argument gets thrown out again, you can get into battle in the same amount of time it takes to apply RtW.

As Jeydra noted, the Warrior is more focused on SY; Dragon Slash spam(particularly when backed by SoH) does more than enough damage for my taste while providing SY and knocklocking capability with on-demand BH. If I wanted pure damage, I'd run something else. The Dervish is made to steamroll multiple targets while still doing high, sustained damage on one whe necessary. On all the builds, IATS could have been used to play cute with the numbers. Master of Damage doesn't account for Deep Wound. SoH, an obvious staple for any melee character, is not in play here. Neither is Balthazar's spirit for providing more adrenaline and damage.

We can't fault you for using a skill, but we can fault you for throwing around that inflated DPS number that we all know tanks after about 15 seconds while other builds can do as much or more over a much longer time with more utility. Seeing you berate us for caring about DPS over utility earlier was a total joke; your build has absolutely no utility at all other than a res that will very rarely even be used. No interrupts, no knockdowns(i.e. YMLAD or EVAS' Iron Palm), no party buffs(i.e. SY or even SYG). Even the old turret you're trying to mimic had Dshot or Savage.

If you want me to get cute and inflate my numbers over a tiny window, I can, but given the way you dismissed people who disagree with you about your "incredibly overpowered" build, I get the feeling further discussion with this would rather fruitless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ogre_jd View Post
Not hard at all. Unless you're in a very closed-in area or are an expert herder, you're not going to be able to take out the squishes at the back at the same time the melees of the spawn are going after your group. AoEs, except maybe for Fire Elementalists, tend to be weaker per hit and per target than single target effects, obviously, so having someone concentrating on the priority targets helps a lot.
No, you're not going to get a perfect ball every time, but you don't need one. The way the AI balls up on its own, especially when they pick one of your heroes that they all want to gank, you almost never have time where there at least ONE extra squishy with an AoE spell or your scythe. The same can be said about kiting; the AI is extremely easy to manipulate into stopping as soon as they start moving that it's a non-issue.
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 09:33 PM // 21:33   #59
Kunder
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Originally Posted by Flash Dilithium View Post
In response to Kunder's updated statistics where he removed SOME of the superior runes, if you simply removal ALL of the superior runes in exchange for minor runes, like I used... and actually compare apples to apples instead of apples to oranges, you will see that my build comes out on top.
Yes. The +2 attribute points in marksmanship is what's responsible for my build being 30-50 DPS above yours compared across tests with similar duration.


Quote:
Complaining about Drunk Master is utterly absurd. It's a skill in the game.
I complained about the consumable. BTW, you do know that superior runes are an item in the game right? And that only a retarded ranger isn't using at least 1 of them in PvE?
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Old Apr 16, 2012, 10:27 PM // 22:27   #60
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BTW, you do know that superior runes are an item in the game right? And that only a retarded ranger isn't using at least 1 of them in PvE?
Yep, and did you know that Rangers can get away with less HP for 2 reasons. Not being front line and/or as squishy as back especially with defensive stances. Enemy AI has rangers on low priority. Mix in WD or something and they don't seem to bother with rangers til other targets are down. So feel free to to try sup with a major or whatever if it justifies the added damage.

Also Idc how you get your damage. As long as it's skill and equipment based, it's probably viable. Things like booze may not be viable for a lot of folks (like me) who don't want to leave their inventory open (too bad they don't have slots for booze).

Lastly, nothing in this thread has convinced me or any PVE team that rangers are worth bringing over X/Y/Z. No one cares that ranged attacks shouldn't do as much damage as frontliners (I disagree since rangers are more squishy and cant really body block with a bow). All teams care is that rangers cant do as much damage as others. Not only do wars do more damage, but they also tank and take pressure off squishies.

Thank you for attempting to make rangers out to be these ranged dealers of death. Unfortunately, those days are long gone. Jack of all = master of none. If Rangers were a factions toon, they would be running around with invincible pets and preps that affected all arrows on barrage. Perma caster shut down. Traps that set and renewed themselves. Prophecies/NF = meh. Factions = all the dev love and then some.

BETTER HOPE FOR A RANGER BUFF B4 IT'S TOO LATE. D3 is released on the 15th and GW2 soon after.... Well maybe if they do it next year many of us old rangers will come back and try it out. Nope. Devs ruined rangers here. Can't believe more people didn't complain sooner. May be we have these type of threads to thank.

Thanks OP!
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