Monks and You [Archive] - Guild Wars Forums

Jericho

May 06, 2005, 12:46 AM

Okay, after a number of unfortunate occurences I feel like a public service announcement is in order. Sadly, most of the people who should be reading this likely won't, but I'm going to post it anyway just for my own grim satisfaction.

Monk is a profession of tremendous responsibility. Pretty much any other class can crash, log out of a mission without warning, or fall asleep at the keyboard without essentially crippling their group - not so with the monk. Even a brief lapse in attention can mean the grisly death of the party. However, while healing is the crux of the monk's existence it's also the seat of their power: a monk will always be in demand with groups, and will bring an edge to every group he joins.

That said, these are some tips for NON-monks that (I think) will help everyone in this community to co-exist better.

Scenario: Your group needs a monk.

1. Avoid spamming the area with "WE NEED A MONK NOW" in all caps. To me, this suggests you'll be likely to spend the whole mission barking orders at everyone (also in caps) and become exceedingly frustrated when everyone does not jump at your beck and call.

2. Include vital information as to where your group is headed and what its goal is in your broadcasts. Proper spelling and punctuation makes your group galaxies more attractive to me.

3. Do not settle for a secondary class monk. Despite what others might tell you, a character without Divine Favor is not a healer.

4. Grab the healer henchman if you run out of patience. She's actually very good at healing, despite a crippling lack of a foresight.

Scenario: You're grouped with a monk.

1. Avoid telling him how to play his class. I grouped with a guy in Fort Koga once, we went up against a disorganized gaggle of w/mo's and hacked them to bits. I put healing seed on him, and since it gave the appearance that we took no damage he felt the need to say "remember to heal us monk". When I explained things to him he blinked for a moment and said "uh, keep doing that then". I know it might give your ego a little stroke to issue everyone orders like you know what you're talking about, but the vast majority of you don't seem to know the first thing about playing a monk, so please keep the sage advice to yourself.

2. If you run off alone, you will die alone, and the only fault will be yours. There are no cross-country heals in our repertoir. If you expect to be healed, stay close to us.

3. Don't be afraid to take the healer henchman as a back-up. I'm never offended when this happens, as soon as I learned to work with Alesia I discovered she could compliment my abilities quite well. Especially in groups of six or more, this is a ready solution and frankly makes my job a lot less stressful.

4. Call him by name. Monk is the only class that seems to always acquire "the monk" as a nickname. I don't appreciate it, and I don't expect anyone else does.

5. Don't touch him if he's in full tattoos. Your hands are cold.

Scenario: You all just died.

1. Resist the urge to blame everything on the monk. Sometimes things happen to groups that no one can foresee, and all the heals in the world can't save you from ultimate doom. We also sometimes make mistakes; so do you, the consequences are just rarely as dire. Immediately blaming the monk for everything makes you an unmitigated asshole of the first degree for all eternity - I will never group with you again, and I will tell my friends. You're in the group too, take some responsibility.

That said, there will be times when you do get a newb monk, but more on that later.

2. Did you bring res signet? I hope so. If not, bring it next time.

Newb Monks

Monk is a class that's easy to jump into and difficult to master. A good monk has quick reflexes and a pathological hatred of low health bars. Now, since everyone has to be a newb at some point, newb monks exist. However, while one out of every ten warriors I meet is exceedingly newbish, monk newbs are far fewer. This does not give you the right to be an asshole to them. Maybe they did just let your resurrection priest die, tell them their mistakes in the plainest terms possible and let them do it right for themselves the next time. Don't micro-manage, let them figure things out on their own. If you shout "THE MONK JUST F---ED US ALL" they will probably leave the character and never look back, and that's one less monk out there to keep you healthy.

However, when you're trying to put together a wicked tombs group and don't have time to babysit, here are a few tips I find helpful for spotting newb monks right off the bat:

1. In PvP, they are wearing full tattoos. This person is a newb, and will likely be the weakest link in your group when they need to be the strongest. Invite at your peril.

2. They spam "LFG" constantly in all caps. Anyone who has played as a monk for more than a few days knows that groups will come to them.

3. You discover they brought resurrection signet to the battle. But by this time it's too late!

I hope this helps. The next person who tries to heap the group's collective deficits onto my shoulders is going to get a holy ankh shoved right up his presumptuous ass. Thanks for reading!

ocoini

May 06, 2005, 01:26 AM

Nice post!

I just want to add that if you spam in town in all caps ("WE NEED A MONK NOW") or similar; I will 9 out of 10 times just ignore you, and see if I find someone more sane to play with :)
And if in the middle of a quest or mission someones ego in the party skyrockets, I will probably just leave the group in the next town we visit.

Brett Kuntz

May 06, 2005, 02:23 AM

1. In PvP, they are wearing full tattoos. This person is a newb, and will likely be the weakest link in your group when they need to be the strongest. Invite at your peril.

Tatoo's are noob? They give the most energy which is deathly imposrtant. I've played both phys armour and tatoos, and believe me, a tatoo healing monk is far superior to a armoured one with 11 less energy.

Raz Lemkin

May 06, 2005, 02:28 AM

Excellent post Jericho. I'm just getting to post-noob monk status (lvl 9) and I'm starting to get a bit annoyed with some groups, especially warriors who think the best tactic is simply to go gun-ho for the healers at the back, bringing out the extra hordes and give me too much healing work to do, esp when the group splits up into 2-3 fronts due to being ganged by 12-14 enemies. I don't believe healers work well in this situation, especially if they use area heal. U run out of mana because it takes too long to finish the fight.

Ideally I think warriors should try to stay close to the monk, especially if they've put a Live Vicariously enchantment on them, and are using Area Heal. This way the monk can take a little extra damage when he gets rushed (hate having to run away cause no one in my team seems to notice that it'll take 3 seconds for the warrior to waste my ass).

BTW, is healing seed found later in the game? Haven't seen it yet.

I'm a Mo\Ne...think I should start again, as I do want to be considered an adequete healer? Can't stand those low health bars, but raising dead is handy for turning the tide, esp when I get rushed.

Pharalon

May 06, 2005, 02:38 AM

3. Do not settle for a secondary class monk. Despite what others might tell you, a character without Divine Favor is not a healer.
As someone who often runs a Me/Mo support character, I'd take offense at that :p. Elmos are more than adequate healers in PvE as well.

1. In PvP, they are wearing full tattoos. This person is a newb, and will likely be the weakest link in your group when they need to be the strongest. Invite at your peril.

You should probably be a wearing a couple of tatoos in PvP. Feet and hands most likely, maybe legs as well, but not chest. The hit ratios on those parts are low enough to make the tradeoff worthwhile.

Besides that, an excellent post, which a lot of assholes should take not of. I've never had my ignore list grow as quickly as when I'm playing a monk :)

DarkParrot

May 06, 2005, 05:32 AM

Synthos

May 06, 2005, 05:45 AM

Oh yeah i face this all the time, My charecter im playing now is a level 19 monk. My biggest problem is when people rush against allot of mesmers because i can groupheal for like 4 or 5 good blasts before im out of energy, So people think that "Hey were not dieing! Lets keep rushing" and they dont realise that the reason there not dying is because of my group heal to combat the negative health degen.

I dont know what your talking about with the tatus, They give you more energy. What i did was use The anti melee chest vest and gloves and tatus for legs.
Here she is..
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v649/Synthos/monkey.jpg

What do you think keeps you alive? Sure as hell isnt your armor.
Energy :)
Nothing looks more like a monk then one in the traditional cloth ones.

Tormunda

May 06, 2005, 06:22 AM

Deagol

May 06, 2005, 06:38 AM

I dont know what your talking about with the tatus

It was a joke. "Your hands are cold."

Manderlock

May 06, 2005, 06:40 AM

It was a joke. "Your hands are cold."

Hes talking about the newbie monk part.

Alexiel

May 06, 2005, 09:20 AM

Brilliant post, I hope everyone reads it.

True, being a Monk, especially primary, means you're never needing to look for a group. However, this isn't always good. You can get some real bastards snatch you up.

I take my monking very seriously. When someone dies I take it hard. When I get blamed afterwards, it doesn't help. Since then, I stopped playing a monk for a long time.

I like being useful in the party so I returned to it during the last BWE and I liked it again. Recently I found it less fun (though that might be due to low level again and hence lack of effective healing).

My biggest peeve is being attacked. I generally play 7/8 skills as healing skills of some sort. When I get attacked, I'm a sitting duck. I'm a support player.

"You should have ressed me" or "healed me" are words that are the bane of my existence. When all I can do is heal myself because everyone else is busy and I'm getting beaten to death. Healing myself severely limits my ability to heal everyone else and not just because of skill recharge and mana use. Oddly enough, I'm somewhat distracted.

People fleeing from my range (or rushing off to battle something miles away) so I have to run back and forth (sometimes into the fray) is inefficient, impractical and really annoying. I'm entirely with you on that point as well.

I'm sure everyone else knows those feelings above, but I wanted to add my congratulations on a grand and pointed post and I agree with all points (except perhaps the newbie tattoos, I prefer not to judge). ;)

Manderlock

May 06, 2005, 09:25 AM

I will not scream at a monk to "HEAL ME HEAL ME" However if i notice my health continue to drop, I will ctrl click my helth bar a couple times. Just to let them know im about to die.

Bellack

May 06, 2005, 09:31 AM

Help me not be a newb:3. You discover they brought resurrection signet to the battle. But by this time it's too late!I assume this is due to the fact that you have a better rez skill or is this because your party shouldn't be dying. This is the only one I didn't understand (I don't have the rez skill yet so the signet is all I have to do it with).

Elurian

May 06, 2005, 09:38 AM

The res skill needs to be one of the first skills you go after (or at least thats what I was) stayed in post searing asc until lvl 12 almost because I was doing every quest trying to find it :x but I did find it and I would advise finding before doing much else.... very well stated post I agree with everything and would like to add if you are an E/* please... please.... PLEASE DO NOT run head long into a group of 5 hydras thinking I can keep you up... when they are hitting you for more than my heal other can heal it is only expected that you die.... quickly.... let the wars tank please.

jdwoody

May 06, 2005, 09:50 AM

2. If you run off alone, you will die alone, and the only fault will be yours. There are no cross-country heals in our repertoir. If you expect to be healed, stay close to us.

I've never found a limit to heal party, though it's not alot of healing and it has a fairly long recharge.

Great post though I would add when the monk says, "Please wait I need to recharge" please abide...

Kershent

May 06, 2005, 10:02 AM

Secondaries CAN be good healers. Just last night I did a mission as a Mes/Monk, and at the beginning they asked if I could heal. I shifted some Att. points to Healing prayers, got out a few extra healing spells, and carried the team through the mission as good as any primary monk. Could a primary monk have done better? Probably. But did I get the job done? Definitely.

Bellack

May 06, 2005, 10:09 AM

Ok I wasn't sure if there was some zen reason why people wouldn't use it. I'm only 9 right now but I'll keep my eyes peeled for the actual skill.

OvertheHill

May 06, 2005, 10:56 AM

E/Mo healing specialists can be very good healers if they put almost all of their points in energy and healing. E/Mo healers have lots of energy to heal with. E/Mo healing specialists also have the advantage of not being the most obvious target to hit.

Jericho

May 06, 2005, 11:45 AM

Ok, I should explain what I meant about the tattoos. Tattoos are great for energy and I use them all the time... in PvE. Fighting computer controlled monsters that won't try to take you down at all costs is different from a team of hard-boiled Koreans who will kamikaze the naked guy until their last breath. In PvP, you need every ounce of protection you can muster. Energy is good too and so I (and others) often use tattoos on the feet and hands and such, but I was talking about full tattoos, which just seems like holding up a "come and get me" sign at the other team.

I've been able to make do in tombs with only the energy that full censor's armor affords me, so it is possible if you manage your heals properly, and that extra protection has saved my life many a time. It helps to carry a second weapon set with a +15 energy -1 energy generation off-hand item that you can switch to in emergencies: free energy boost to shoot off a big heal on the priest, and you can switch back for the energy regen when things calm down a little.

I've never found a limit to heal party, though it's not alot of healing and it has a fairly long recharge.

This actually hadn't occured to me but it looks lke you're totally right.

I assume this is due to the fact that you have a better rez skill or is this because your party shouldn't be dying. This is the only one I didn't understand (I don't have the rez skill yet so the signet is all I have to do it with).

Okay yes, I was mostly referring to post-Ascalon with that. No one will blame you for not having resurrect in pre-searing, but I would recommend finding Grazden (he's near the charred remains of Ashford) as soon as you can and doing his quest for resurrect.

Glad everyone appreciated it :)

catharsis

May 06, 2005, 03:17 PM

Aww.. Everybody go hug a monk. Chronic underappreciation hurts!

Warriors - You are targeted LAST in PVP. Monks are targeted first in PVP. Ergo: Watch your monk. Keep Sprint in your skill bar, and if he's in trouble.. RUN. You had better not be far in the first place.. Or, instead of sprint, try using Cripple-type skills and slow everybody attacking the monk down a tad so he can run. Nobody else can protect the monk like you, because nobody else has the same tanking ability.

Treize

May 06, 2005, 09:37 PM

I played a monk during the beta. Every mmorpg I have ever played I have been a monk/cleric in, usually chaos is fun but in this game its not. I got bored of people rushing like crazy while im sitting thier trying to conserve energy well enough so no one dies. No one usually gives a crap when the monk get mobbed either. Then when the group dies people wonder why.

I love playing Healers because its always a challenge, just sucks when people suck.

Honour_Shogun

May 06, 2005, 10:30 PM

Playing a healer, I do my damndest to keep people alive ( even going so far as to max out my healing, which sits right now at 12 with a +1 healing head scalp) but I get frustrated because I rely mainly on Heal Party ( because it has no range on it. If they are in the party, they get healed for 63 hp. Problem is, if they are taking 80 per hit, then I cannot keep up. I also use reversal of fortune because it allows me to give them a quick heal instead of taking damage. As to Heal Party having a long recharge, huh? It has almost no recharge time, at least for me. Maybe I'm still too new at the game to know about the different skills and their recharge times, but it seems to only rely on how much energy I have. Taking Ele as my secondary now looks like a mistake instead of mesmer because my main problem ( and something people seem not to understand) is that I have access to a set amount of energy. So when it runs out, well, I have to wait for it to regen. Until then, hold on.

To be fair, I have yet to play PVP, so I have no idea how exactly I would do, but what has been said so far is bang on. Don't run into a mob and expect me to only focus on you. If I have to let one die to ensure the group survives, so be it. Especially if they go running into a mob and then get swarmed. Or if I get swarmed, I am going to try to keep myself alive, since I tend to be the only monk in the group.

Just remember, monks are human too. If you slash us, do we not bleed? If you cuss us, do we not get ticked off? If you rush pellmell into a group of 8 enemies, do we try to keep you alive, but if you die, well, we did out best?

Monks are your friends, and your worst enemy can be a po'd monk.

Nur Leah Healer

May 07, 2005, 12:33 AM

Indeed, I loved the post. There is next to no problem with Party Heal recharge time. Its slim to none I believe. Unfortunately, I only have something like...38 mana so I can only cast two before I'm out. I've been a healer ever since I can remember, and its rare for me to find people that actually loathe seeing the health bar even below 50%. Well, I hope to see more of you in-game, and hopefully I'm not going against you in PvP. Never once have I ever seen a secondary monk that actually did anything to help me (no offense I'm sure theres some out there, but I have yet to meet them). And indeed, if you piss me off, I definately dont heal you hehhheh. Well, AWAY!!!! Got to get some levels.

-Nur Leah, Monkhood

Lord Malikai

May 07, 2005, 12:41 AM

I play a War/Elem and my wife plays a Mo/Me. In PvE I get annoyed because I am a warrior and I am supposed to tank right ? Wrong, all the fooking mobs run right past me and surround my wifes cleric. Never fails. Warriors need some type of agro management or angering skills to pull mobs attentions to them. PvP is a different story, these are people with brains that know to kill the lifeline of the enemy. Mobs are not, most are not very intelligent (60/40 ration I'd say from all the mobs I've seen).

But anyway, love your monk. Stay in range. Protect them as best you can. Thank them after every mission. If you all die, apologize for not breaking through the lines and securing an escape route for the monk :P Offer them all your loot for compensation.

Falconer

May 07, 2005, 11:21 AM

Yeah really... don't diss secondary healers.

In both PvP AND PvE... I've seen secondary healers do some really good things.

The value of divine favour is really only in the spam low energy heals, as it can result in a 50% increase in effectiveness for them. But for someone using the big energy heals (such as heal other... +30heal on a 140 point heal to begin with isn't that bad. El/Mo's can do really well in fact because they have some huge energy management skills of their own... EG: Ether Renewal followed by spamming orison/word/dwayna's... all those 5 energy.s.. when you're getting back 8-12 energy per cast... means that you're making energy and refilling your bar. Monk primaries have zero energy management skills (outside of essence bond).

In a PvP build. Placing your actual healers in the secondary can actually work to your advantage if the monk primaries are focused on protection type skills. Because the actual healers are concealed, it can take the other team time to find them. DO NOT overlook the sheer value of confusion on the PvP battlefield where things move fast.

I play a War/Elem and my wife plays a Mo/Me. In PvE I get annoyed because I am a warrior and I am supposed to tank right ? Wrong, all the fooking mobs run right past me and surround my wifes cleric. Never fails. Warriors need some type of agro management or angering skills to pull mobs attentions to them. PvP is a different story, these are people with brains that know to kill the lifeline of the enemy. Mobs are not, most are not very intelligent (60/40 ration I'd say from all the mobs I've seen).

You just need to learn how to tank a little better. Oftentimes as Ra/Mo I find myself on bodyguard duties as well as offense. But there's other techniques you can use as a player.

Body block mobs with your warrior to stop them from getting to the monk for example. Your wife should learn to use you as a pick as well (run by close and snag the mob onto you). (think of basketball and how to block a guy or get a charge called on him).

Also, hamstring/knockdown will get their attention especially if you're wailing on them and they can't get to the monk.

Sausaletus Rex

May 07, 2005, 12:27 PM

I'll have to agree that the Ascetic or tattoo armor seems like it's the best choice if you're going to pick from the Monk armors. I'll admit I haven't seen them all in PvE but the PvP options at least are Ascetics (60AL +16/+2), Wanderer's (60+5AL vs. elemental damage +10/+2), and Judge's (60+10AL vs physical, +6/+2).

Wanderer's gives you a grand 5 armor against elemental damage which is something like 6.25% less damage, elemental damage is common but the extra protection is laughable. Judge's is much better as it will give you 10AL (About 12.5% less damage) against a very common type of damage, physical which both Rangers and Warriors will be kicking out but you'll take a hit to your maximum energy for each piece you wear. And Ascetic's is 60AL with a 6 energy bonus (7 if you wear the scalp but who's going to pass up the attribute bonus?). So, you can either get a bit of defense, a bit more defense but shoot yourself in the foot in terms of energy, or a bit less defense and more energy to fuel your casting of things that will defend you much more than the other armor sets. As has been said probably the best way to go is Ascetic's with a Judge's Vestments as you'll then have +12/+2 energy and some solid defense - you could make the same case for Wanderer's Vestments (13 extra energy) there too if you're more worried about Elementalists. But if you had to pick just the one set just why would you go with anything but tattoos?

The value of divine favour is really only in the spam low energy heals, as it can result in a 50% increase in effectiveness for them.

I'd argue the real value of DF is with non-healing skills, such as with a Protection Monk. Using high DF alone makes those buffs you'll be tossing around nearly as good as the basic healing for a Healing Monk. And if you use something like Divine Boon to go with them you'll be kicking out a lot of healing and something more besides.

Secondary healers can work and work well. As a longtime proponent of the Elmo, I can tell you that they can be run to good effect in competitive situations. As Falconer points out they an be easily ignored or overlooked to the detriment of the other side. A battle can be a chaotic and confusing thing and while you shouldn't rely on the element of surprise or deception you can take good advantage of it.

Lazarus

May 07, 2005, 01:49 PM

This a great thread. There is a lot of useful info on playing a monk along with very valid gripes.

I bought GW just on 5 days ago, and didn't play in any of the test phases. Heck, I didn't even look on-line for in depth game information untill today. My first day was really a just learning the game basics, on the second I started playing.

My first character is a PvE Monk/Necro and while he doesn't play exactly the way I first thought he would, he does a great job at keeping his party alive.

At first I was frustrated at not getting the support a healer should have from his party. I was relying on my Necro skills to keep me alive and healing my party as best I could, but that changed on about my fourth attempt to complete one of the early missions. The party that came to me needed a healer and asked me to join. I noticed that they all were members of the same guild and thought to myself "I hope these aren't some guys that think they are the bomb just because they started a guild". Luckily that was not the case. They all had good attitudes were willing to share what they knew with out being snide to a n00b. That's not all, either. These guys took such good care of me that I only used my necro skills to complement their offense. I was able to do a lot more healing that way. After a while I asked them "How do I get one of those cool capes?" and they invited me to join.

Now I am 14th lvl and due to a few choice items, have a 12 in healing skills and an 8 divine favor. My necro curses are almost unused when I play with them. There have been times when I was the only monk in a 6 person party and kept them all going, just because they keep me alive.

So my point is a simple one: Do not ask what your Monk can do for you, but ask what you can do for your Monk. As long as you both remain flexible and work as a team victory will be yours.

Lazarus

Mimu

May 07, 2005, 03:03 PM

A good post, I am not a monk but unfortunately I have seen a few of these things happening..

However, if a primary monk is going to charge directly into a mob then complain when they die.. (as has happened in a few PUG's I have had the misfortune to quest with.) I will have absolutely no sympathy for their cause, so it does work both ways. :p

Elurian

May 07, 2005, 04:05 PM

DavisMarkin

May 08, 2005, 03:46 PM

I will not scream at a monk to "HEAL ME HEAL ME" However if i notice my health continue to drop, I will ctrl click my helth bar a couple times. Just to let them know im about to die.

That's just as bad, imo. It's like creating a 'heal me' macro in other MMOs. Sure it might be easy to do, but, it's still telling the Mo "WTF, HEAL ME!". It might not be intended, but it can most certainly be taken that way. Now I suppose if for some reason, the Mo didn't heal anyone, then yeah... something's really wrong with that guy. But most people (even non-Mos) will keep the party window up. I kinda wish it'd show energy though too.

Care Less

May 08, 2005, 07:20 PM

Might want to add these few lines

In PvP

The monk did not fail to heal you , he let you die to save him self or another more important player , dont spam saying how much the monk "omfg suxx0rs" this can also happen in PvE

Spamming Heal me or Res me wont get you healed faster , heals and resses comes when possible

Monks dont have unlimited Engery and can not heal the whole team in 2 secs (well party heal but if you use that in pvp you should not be a monk :P )

/ Care Less

Mila

May 09, 2005, 11:01 AM

I've been silently looking around these forums since the game came out. When I came across this thread I just had to join.

I'm a monk by nature. Every game I've ever played, the white mage was always my favorite to play. Until now.

I play a Mo/Me my husband plays a warrior. It's been great going through the first parts of this game "solo"ing together. Just recently we reached Kryta and I am so ready to leave because of stupid people that are inconsiderate. All the reasons have already been listed in this thread, and I applaud the origional poster.

As the game get's harder, non warriors can't keep charging into a huge group of enemies and then yell at me for not keeping the five of them alive. I'm so sick of saying "please wait a sec between battles for my energy to recharge" and being ignored.

My all time favorites are the ranger that went into a mission with NO armor on, the warrior that carried a weapon that depleated his health & yelled at me for not keeping him healthy. And my all time favorite, a Mo/W build that didn't heal at all, just rushed in with his 'friend' warrior. How the hell was I supposed to keep him alive?

I so hope to have the opportunity to play with some of you some day! The members of this forum seem to realize that tactics quite often outweigh brute force. For now, I may go play my R/N for a few days.

jdwoody

May 09, 2005, 11:56 AM

sorry my bad on the heal party recharge, I meant it takes a relatively long time to cast for how much healing you get...

On a side note, I had the game crash out in the middle of a mission, but was on teamspeak so I could still communicate with my guildmates. I found that even though I was in a messed up windows mode, when I hit '4' I would still cast heal party. Sure enough in the middle of a battle when they needed it I was able to heal the entire party and helped them get through, glad I didn't reboot my machine!

obvlexi

May 10, 2005, 12:12 PM

3. Do not settle for a secondary class monk. Despite what others might tell you, a character without Divine Favor is not a healer.

Sorry but this is just ignorant. An E/Mo with a good build can outheal a primary monk any day for pure HP output... energy storage is that good as it allows for infinite casting without having to worry about outside factors. It won't be as effective for protection prayers, but that is why good pvp teams have more than 1 monk with different specialties.

How is a monk that never has to stop to regen energy not a healer. You are not taking into your calculations how long a primary monk has to wait for energy to regen, not to mention enchantment stripping.

Lazarus

May 10, 2005, 02:51 PM

...An E/Mo with a good build can outheal a primary monk any day for pure HP output...

IMHO, Energy storage is no replacement to Divine Favor when it comes healing spells.

My monk can spend 5 energy and heal you for over 150hp. If I spend 10 I can heal for over 225. While you can cast more spells, I am willing to bet 5 of my heals are better than 10 of yours.

Epinephrine

May 10, 2005, 03:01 PM

Both El/Mo and Mo/X can be very good healers. El/Mo is not as efficient as Mo/X, and thus often can't deal with a spike of damage as well. Mo/X often can't heal for as long straight as an El/Mo. Mo/X gets divine spells which can be helpful, El/Mo gets energy based spells which can really make life easier. There are builds with both that are very effective. Even Nec/Mo can be a very good healer in the right situation - if you are partied with a minion necromancer you can have what feels like boundliess energy with a Nec/Mo. Let's not turn a discussion about how Monks are treated and how to stand up for healers into a pissing contest about builds.

Monks come in all shapes and sizes, there are many ways to play one. If the main goal of your character is to reduce the damage your party takes, heal them or keep them in fighting form you are a support character and essentially in the same boat as a monk. I plan on shifting my necro/monk to Protection/Curses to give it a try, and I am willing to bet that except for astute players I'll be told off for not "healing" even when I am shielding them from damage, reducing monster attack rates and weakening the melee mobs on them.

mostro

May 10, 2005, 03:13 PM

IMHO, Energy storage is no replacement to Divine Favor when it comes healing spells.

My monk can spend 5 energy and heal you for over 150hp. If I spend 10 I can heal for over 225. While you can cast more spells, I am willing to bet 5 of my heals are better than 10 of yours.

This is what I thought regarding primary/secondary monk too. While a primary monk may not have as much energy as an ele/mo, the bonus from DF makes a primary monk heals more efficiently and better. DF really helps when a member of your team is being focused and you need to pull out as much heal as possible.

Do I think that a primary monk can heal better? Yes. Would it prevent me from having an ele/mo in the party? No. As long as the monk has a good skill it does not really matter if he wants to use ele/mo.

Davin Kabak

May 10, 2005, 04:57 PM

As a Ranger/Warrior, I find that in most parties I join, I am not in HUGE need of healing, due to the (omfg1337) skill of Troll Unguent. That being said, with a good mix of ranged and melee damage/condition skills, I am usually able to roam as I please.

Where do I usually roam? Behind the front line, usually within spitting distance of the Monk. The monk can keep me alive, and I can quickly intercept a charging warrior as he breaks through the line. With Hunter shot, I can put pain on anyone that starts chasing my monk, and its even better when that monk starts running in a circle around me. Almost always, the Warrior will notice the damage I'm dealing him, and turn to focus on me. This frees up my monk, and he gets right to healing on me, while I erradicate the offending warrior (Swordsmanship 9 with a Sundering sword on a ranger can be quite deadly :) )

Healing Spell....10 Mana
Troll Unguent...10 mana
Apply Poison...15 Mana

Shooting a warrior in the back with hunter+poison to kill him after beating him up for attacking my monk...Priceless :D

Banned

May 19, 2005, 04:21 AM

none

May 19, 2005, 04:40 AM

I might as well add my .02 cents here myself! There have been times when one player takes all my time and heals, sucking up my energy in droves, and when they die I leave them there until the battle is complete. A few times team mates have even said something about it, but during a hard battle a rez takes time and a large amount of energy that I find I need when a fight is raging around me. It's nothing personal, but there are others that need it as we go.

[...]

Oh, and please dont tell me what spells to put on my bar, it drives me nuts when other characters do this!!! :mad:

Nice post!

True enough. Sometimes I'm even glad (bad monk, bad monk) if one char dies, because it's impossible for a lonely monk to heal a party of 8, if the group overestimated their strength. i've found that i'm able to keep 4 ppl alive in a hard battle where i might fail with 8 ppl. this of course also has to do with bad tactics from some of those (like warriors chasing different enemies if i use healing seed). i always heal as much as i can do, but if i see that i can't keep everyone alive i concentrate on those that i regard as crucial for the survival of the group. and i'd expect every other monk to do the same, although i know very well, that it's frustrating if you're dead in the midst of the battle and can't help the others (i've experienced it more than once with my primary char who is no monk and doesn't even have real healing abilities).

As for your second point, I sometimes ask other monks what skills they are using, if i'm not the only monk in a group. not because i want to correct them, but a) because i want to arrange my skills so we best work together (i'm a pure monk, so can choose between healing and protecting), and b) to get new ideas that i might use for my own healing tactics and improve those.

Wyld Kard

May 19, 2005, 09:36 AM

I for one am a warrior gone monk due to the boredom of hack and slash mentality of it all. Thus I switched to a charactor that well demands more attention. after watching the monk farming video I was amazed at how well she did taking on six white mantle at a time and those hill giants yikes! But until I get higher than well level 10 I will be sticking with my healing spells and protection spell until.
1. Get better armor than the wanderer's set I currently am using.
2. My dmg. on my smites are as high as hers were in the video.
3. Completing the game, gaining excess to all of the outposts and completing all of the quests, also gaining all of the spells/skills I will need to effectively farm my way to riches!

On a side note I before becoming a monk did my research on hit ratios, different monk builds and so on and so forth and the only places I see myself having tattoo's is my head, and arms. do to the high hit ratio on chest/legs and not wanting to have cuts and calasises on my feet from running over sharp rocks and hot lava! :D

Epinephrine

May 19, 2005, 10:11 AM

Wanderer's gives you a grand 5 armor against elemental damage which is something like 6.25% less damage, elemental damage is common but the extra protection is laughable. Judge's is much better as it will give you 10AL (About 12.5% less damage) against a very common type of damage, physical which both Rangers and Warriors will be kicking out but you'll take a hit to your maximum energy for each piece you wear. And Ascetic's is 60AL with a 6 energy bonus (7 if you wear the scalp but who's going to pass up the attribute bonus?). So, you can either get a bit of defense, a bit more defense but shoot yourself in the foot in terms of energy, or a bit less defense and more energy to fuel your casting of things that will defend you much more than the other armor sets. As has been said probably the best way to go is Ascetic's with a Judge's Vestments as you'll then have +12/+2 energy and some solid defense - you could make the same case for Wanderer's Vestments (13 extra energy) there too if you're more worried about Elementalists. But if you had to pick just the one set just why would you go with anything but tattoos?

Actually, just to fix the numbers up a bit, 5 AL bonus is 9% less damage, 10 AL bonus is 16% less damage. How do you recommend doing the combination of sets? Arms and feet with Ascetic and legs and chest Judges?

Xavz

May 19, 2005, 10:22 AM

That's my stance, legs/chest Judge's, arms/feet Ascetic - if you're getting pounded on, it's good to have a set of full Judge's hotkeyed.

Epinephrine

May 19, 2005, 10:24 AM

You can hotkey armour? How? I had no idea, that could be really handy.

Xavz

May 19, 2005, 10:33 AM

Same as weapons - you just don't see it on the weapon hotkey, whatever armor pieces you are wearing are also bound on the weapon set. (At least it's worked this way in the past, haven't tried it in release yet.)

aramil

May 19, 2005, 10:56 AM

I also have a monk character and I totally agree with this posts except for one thing. I'm a mo/ele and the biggest problem for me is have enough energy to keep my party alive. I need every single point of energy I have for my healing/protection spells wich means I have no use for my elementalist proffesion. so I was thinking that a secondary monk might sometimes be better than a primary since if you put ele as primary you can have 12 healing/10 energy storage and 10 earth magic to keep yourself alive or 10 protection. you might have a worse orison of healing spam, but you can keep up high energy healing spells like heal party way much longer. so I think elementalist/monk is better than monk/elementalist for the energy. if you have more energy you can also spend more of it on protection spells for yourself while you don't have energy for protective earth spells if you are monk primary.

Searatonin

May 19, 2005, 12:04 PM

Yeah nice post shame everyone who plays won't read, or even care about what they would be reading.

Been level 20 monk for quite sometime now, always learning, especially in pvp..

I used to feel so bad when people died, i now accept it happens, but with good tanks and good a balanced team things are alot smoother.. its good to find those.

And painful when you find the opposite.. example:

Elementalist thinks it is funny she is taking all the damage, because she refuses to back off from the mob, instead choosing to stay in melee range.
Not realising the amount of health she is losing (due to armour and well being an elem) is so much more inefficient for me and my fellow monks energy that we are dumping most of it on her straight off the bat.. she died a few times, somehow we got them through the Elona mission.. my job is done.

Zfactor

May 19, 2005, 12:25 PM

amen to this thread.

I would like to add something tho, I seem to encounter this more and more in the ascention area (my first char was a ele so I never noticed). For some reason, non-tank people (like rangers, eles, mesmers, and necros) think it's a good idea to stand around and take a beating while they try to blitz the groups. This is never going to work, and it really really pisses off the monk. First of all, we have to use healing wind and heal other over and over and it costs a lot of energy. Secondly, if we let you die we will never hear the end of it. I am trying to practice restraint and just let these people die who do this and suck up all my energy so that I can keep the competent people alive.

On a more vindictive note, once I get my hands on that enchantment that kills the person when you remove it (can't look it up atm) ill be killing alot of a-holes who think they have a right to cuss me out because their health dropped beloe 50% for 4 seconds.

--Addtion
I have yet to see an even half-way decent E/Mo, maybe I'm missing all the goodness, but I dobut it.

Epinephrine

May 19, 2005, 12:35 PM

amen to this thread.

I would like to add something tho, I seem to encounter this more and more in the ascention area (my first char was a ele so I never noticed). For some reason, non-tank people (like rangers, eles, mesmers, and necros) think it's a good idea to stand around and take a beating while they try to blitz the groups.

Umm, Rangers have decent armour, at least it's better than a caster's. I'll frequently interpose myself between the guys heading for the mage/monk as a ranger because a) I'm tougher than the target they were heading for, and b) I have a defensive stance on my skillbar - so I will often be seen tanking to some extent. Someone has to stop the group from gangbanging the fragile folks, and the warrior has already pulled the first ones he could and is thus busy. Please keep the healing going, especially because once that stance wears off, or if they Wild Blow I am in trouble.

I agree that there are people who shouldn't be in the tanking posistion, but a ranger has to step up sometimes and take some hits for the team, and we are pretty dependent on getting the healing goodness too.

buggsy

May 28, 2005, 01:13 PM

I've been a level 20 monk for about 2 weeks now, and lapped level 20 about 15 times now.

13 healing
13 protection
11 divine favor

Best secondary monk:

The best secondary monk for a group would be an elementalist/monk that primarilly uses heal party/heal area. This is because divine favor doesnt effect heal party, and heal area. These mana-intensive spells put a huge dent in a monk's mana pool. Primary monks are better off as emergency healers for the weaker armored players in your group. You know, those types of warriors tromping around the desert with Yaks Bend armor on drawing aggro like a naked mesmer, yeah you. Reversal of fortune's high cast rate and mana efficient super heals that target 1 character are better saved for a primary monk. Aegis kicks butt too. Also, an elemntalist/healer can mix it up with the bad guys, and do a little aggro drawing themselves by casting aura of restoration on themselves and using heal area on friendlies.

Its all about mana efficiency. If your running into a bunch of sand scarabs that poison 6 players simultaneously, and everyones down to half health in 10 seconds, would you rather have a monk that can only cast 4 heal partys in a short period of time, or would you rather have an elementalist that can cast 10 heal partys in a short period of time? On the other hand, if your facing a couple heavy hitters that love to pound one group member to death, leaving everyone else untouched, a elementalist/monk would never be able keep up.

Primary monks:

For god's sake get Aegis before entering into PvP, its range is like that of heal party, anyone on the radar screen. And that dudes right about wearing tattoes while battling Koreans. Good god. Although I do enjoy the occasional chase by a single warrior (not wielding a knockdown hammer), I will cast pacify on them and start dancing in front of them, your usually chased by more then 1 enemy warrior at a time. I hate that.

Xavz

May 28, 2005, 06:41 PM

Divine Favor does affect Heal Party and Heal Area - it heals the caster for the DF bonus.

nennafir

May 29, 2005, 12:04 AM

I would just echo the thoughts of some people. Namely, that an E/Mo with 14 energy storage, 12 healing prayers, and ether prodigy, can pump out a lot of heals and not run out of energy.

Has someone actually run the numbers on a build like this compared to a monk one with maxed divine favor and healing prayers? It would be interesting to see. I expect that the E/Mo would last longer though and overall heal for more over time, although the monk would be better dealing with spike damage.

EinValentine

May 29, 2005, 10:13 AM

Don't forget that Divine Favor is the base attribute for several useful skills, many of which include *gasp* Energy Management, including the Signet of Devotion (no energy cost heal) and the Blessed Signet (which gives you energy for each enchantment you are maintaining) as well as the Elite Skill Peace and Harmony (which gives an additional pip of energy regen so long as you don't attack or use abilities targeting an enemy).

Not to say that Monk secondaries can't be excellent healers, but Divine Favor is a lot more than just a bonus to healing.

kimchipoisen

May 29, 2005, 06:15 PM

3. Do not settle for a secondary class monk. Despite what others might tell you, a character without Divine Favor is not a healer.

i'm a ele/monk and i'm a great healer. With 60 mana, you don't got to worry about mana problems.

funbun

May 29, 2005, 08:42 PM

To Jericho:

Great post. It's fair and gives insight into all sides.

BUT I must say that you pre-supposition is that Monk should be nothing more than Heal-Bots. I am a Smite/Protection monk. Most monks can't even beat their mirror test because they only know how to heal. I think it's a great dis-service to only think of monks as Heal bots. If you want a heal bot get the hench.

Smite and protection prayers are the MOST under used attributes of a monk. Yet smite is the only way to kill the mirror in Acension. Why do think there are so few Ascended Monks? Once you Ascend everyone and his brother want you on their team. Why? Because monks who have ascended have truly mastered their character. Not just Heal-Bots

During the Kryta missions smite prayers get and exrta 200% damage against undead. Why not take advatage of that? Yet people only want monks to heal.

With the passing effects Divine Favor and Divine Boon,you don't need healing prayers. In fact, I no longer use healing prayers. I do divine favor, smite, and protection.

What's more my groups stay alive!

Plus, there are always people who quit the group in the middle of a mission. As a smiting monk the group loses very little firepower!

mommas_b_o_y

May 30, 2005, 11:20 AM

Tatoo's are noob? They give the most energy which is deathly imposrtant. I've played both phys armour and tatoos, and believe me, a tatoo healing monk is far superior to a armoured one with 11 less energy.
You are right tatoos do give the most energy. I agree monks with all tatoos are far superior to monks with the other kinds of armor, but besides that point jerico was right on.

Forboding Angel

May 31, 2005, 03:48 AM

I disagree with the tattoos thing, but that's just personal preferance. The energy that tats give is exceptional.

funbun

May 31, 2005, 06:01 AM

The tatoos look funny, especially on female monks. They look like Amazon Queens, lol.

Neo-LD

May 31, 2005, 06:25 AM

1. Tatoos are great but I put them only on feet hands and head. Legs and especially chest get hit way too often and need a silk or judgers set armor.

funbun

May 31, 2005, 07:12 AM

Good point. I use a mix matched set of armor also. Tatoos on the arms, Wander's Sandels, Sacred pant/chest.

toastgodsupreme

May 31, 2005, 09:23 AM

Last night we did the run to Lion's Arch (gates of Krytia). At the VERY begining, some elementalist runs ahead (we were still waiting for everyone to pop into the zone) plays tank. After the battle ends and my energy depleted, I yell at him (through party, so all can see) and say:

"If you EVER play tank and kill my energy like that again, I will stop healing you and let you die."

Needless to say, he stayed back and let our two warriors do the tanking (and quite well I might add).

The mission went quite well with only one death (some Mo/Me, who's build I wasn't sure about because he wasn't healing anyone but himself, and doing a shitty job at that). He also died in the swamp (poison, durh). I was busy keeping the warriors alive to bother with him in the swamp (they were all warned to avoid the water as best as possible, but he hung out in it. his own damn fault).

This is all on my mo/w btw. I initially spec'd her to be a wamo type build, but went to healing build since nobody would party with me. I have to say, I don't mind being support. It's quite fun.

funbun

May 31, 2005, 09:56 AM

Support is fun.

But once you Ascend people will acept you in their party no matter what build you are. Ascension has a certain thing about it.

Just be for warned that you will need smite in the Mirror Ascension Test. Once you Ascend you can play any build you want.

ElevenBravo

May 31, 2005, 10:55 AM

Tatoo's are noob? They give the most energy which is deathly imposrtant. I've played both phys armour and tatoos, and believe me, a tatoo healing monk is far superior to a armoured one with 11 less energy.

LOL, yep, your a newb. I dont guess you have pvp'ed much with a tat only monk?

funbun

May 31, 2005, 11:20 AM

yeah most monk use Judges armor for help protect against physical damage. Warriors gank monks.

Opaque

Jun 01, 2005, 01:05 PM

if you go with tatoos you simply need to bring skills to make up the armor difference

JoDiamonds

Jun 01, 2005, 03:25 PM

Everyone should be really clear about PvP vs. PvE for armor. No one's a "newb" for not playing PvP, and assuming everyone does is silly.

There's nothing wrong with PvP, I like it a lot. But for a game named Guild Wars, the PvE is really good. =)

funbun

Jun 01, 2005, 03:40 PM

There is a difference between a newb and a n00b. Newbs or newbies are people who are new. The same as being a rookie or freshman. They are willing to learn and are open minded.

N00bs, on the other hand, are losers. They have no intention of learn anything. They are God as far as they are concerned and do not understand why others think less of them than they do of themselves.

Being a n00b is an insult
Being a newb is not.

skystride

Jun 01, 2005, 04:08 PM

You will get your butt handed to you in PvP if you assume that ?/Mo means they can't be a primary healer. There are several ?/Mo build that can outheal many primary monk builds. I have personal experience with E/Mo that can breeze through 4v4 better than any primary monk I know.

Newb is apt for anyone who hasn't realized this yet.

funbun

Jun 01, 2005, 04:16 PM

I've seen that too. Elmos have lots of energy reserveses. I've seen them outheal me.

tidal

Jun 01, 2005, 08:09 PM

I've been playing a monk/elementalist for a few weeks now, and had a great amount of enjoyment from it. What I don't understand is during the ascension missions i've constantly had groups of morons and I don't say that lightly. I don't understand how these people have gotten so far in the game and then have the balls to STILL blame me when it's their rushing which got them killed... I try my best to heal but it can only go so far.

On a funnier note I like to sit in mission areas and count how many group invites I get in 3 minutes :P

record is 5

Ollj

Jun 01, 2005, 08:56 PM

3. Do not settle for a secondary class monk. Despite what others might tell you, a character without Divine Favor is not a healer, unless it has a lot of energy storage

True: divine favour heals more than energy storage, but not as often because of energy limits.

true. Warriormonks definitely are no healers and they should not waste points on healing prayers!

BTW:
Monks are not essential to have in any team, most classes can heal themself pretty good (palladins excluded).

Curlyfry

Jun 01, 2005, 10:12 PM

One huge problem i have run into with my monk, i created a wicked protection monk, and as this post claims, people blame monks for losing. This post truly applies to healing monks, while it really should focus also on smiting and protection monks. Both smiting monks and protection monks are rarer to find, but they can usually become more helpful than healing monks. I will place some tips on how to create/work/party with these monks

Smiting Monks:
1. When one has a smiting monk, sure, focus on smiting, but always keep rez and a healing prayer. This helps group survival and posterity.
2. Clearly state that you are a smiting monk and not a healing monk!!!(i cannot repeat this enough). When a monk is in a party, they are looked at as the main healer. In PvE levels, people will downsize their monk alot, MAKE SURE THERE ARE AT LEAST 2 HEALING MONKS IN EACH GROUP!
3. As a smiter, you should state to the group what you do exactly. Smiters are GREAT targeters.
4. Learn some great smiting spells. Though rare, smiting spells are great for team play, and any monk can use them.

Protection Monks:
1. State that you need healing monks in order to function well. Most teams will count you as a healer, and find that when low on health, they die.
2. Place some armor buffs and health regeneration spells on tanks. this way, they can stay alive (and take the beating for you, hehehe).
3. Take rez or rebirth with you. This way you are still able to keep your team going.
4. Stay back ALL THE TIME! When in the tombs and being targeted/chased, buff yourself and heal yourself, i have done this and found that I can last for EXTREMELY long amounts of time.
5. Have at least two healing monks in your party. With two healers and a rotector your team's longentivity is garunteed.
6. (fun to do) Form an all monk group, or at least 5 monks. This usually lasts a while and can make it to and hold the HoH.

Hope this guide helps, i will be adding edits, but I am rushing, and remember, GUILD WARS ROCKS! :D :D :D

funbun

Jun 01, 2005, 11:04 PM

Good suggestions, Curly. I wonder why monks don't every learn their other 2 attributes?

They get to the mirror test and can't beat it because they have never been learned to Smite.

nennafir

Jun 02, 2005, 12:47 AM

I would just like to reiterate that I have an E/Mo with 12 healing prayers, 14 energy storage, and 4 earth magic.

I have ether prodigy. I can basically repeat cast heal party FOREVER, with only very minor pauses. I have so much energy that with my energy and ether prodigy, I always have the energy to do what I want to.

For PVE, there are no complaints. For PVP, the complaint is that I can't heal myself as well as I can heal other people. This is a definite weakness. A primary Monk has more options to heal themselves than a secondary monk. I think this is what balances an E/Mo and the real reason all monks are not E/Mo's (this, and the fact that monks will deal better with spike damage.)

But if what you want is a healer that always has the energy to heal you, an E/Mo is your best bet.

Extra credit discussion: Ether prodigy is like crack cocaine. Once you start on an ether prodigy binge in a given battle, you just keep using it again and again every 22 seconds or whatever.

buggsy

Jun 02, 2005, 01:01 AM

IF you find a primary monk using signet of devotion, he sucks. You dont gain any benefit from divine using signets.

busbus

Jun 02, 2005, 04:42 AM

IF you find a primary monk using signet of devotion, he sucks. You dont gain any benefit from divine using signets.

signet of devotion heals about 80 and there is no mana cost.
Ok it is quite slow.
But isn't is a nice idea to spam this signet in some cases until you got more mana again ?

buggsy

Jun 02, 2005, 05:49 AM

I've had party members die on me while in the middle of using that very slow signet.

busbus

Jun 02, 2005, 09:25 AM

So the general rule for using Signet of Devotion is that if someone isn't in desperate need of a heal right now, and you can deliver right now, you cast Signet. If half a second later someone needs that fast heal you just cancel and cast the heal. But a lot of the time you'll get a bit over halfway through the cast before they need that heal, and then the Signet will finish healing right around the time a normal, fast heal would have gone off. Use Signet on people at full health, on someone you've just finished healing, or just keep it running pretty much whenever you have a chance. It really doesn't cost you more than the skill slot it takes.

Well i thought more of using it in this way.

JoDiamonds

Jun 02, 2005, 09:33 AM

Guys think about this.... E/Mos have to use heal other which is 10e to reach the same amt of HP I heal with orision right now I dont even have favor maxed out (healing is close to it) and I heal for 60 + 35(divine favor) + 58(divine boon) Thats 148 off of a 5e "spam" heal change the skill from orision to heal other and I heal for 151 + 35 + 58 thats 244hp per way more than any E/Mo can heal I'm not saying they arent helpful and you should ALWAYS have at least 2 healers in the group one of which is a primary

I agree that any group of 5+ players probably needs at least two healers (even if they aren't dedicated healers).

But I've been -able- to keep a group of six players alive with my ElMo. While you are certainly right that a monk primary can heal more in a short period of time, that period of time is about ten seconds, after which the monk will be out of energy (if they've been repeatedly casting Heal Other, which is your example). With about 70 energy, ElMo can cast Heal Other twice as much, and can also use smaller heals in between with far less worry about running out of energy.

If one player is near death, a primary monk will certainly get that player closest to fully healed the fastest. But an Elementalist can do a lot more "partial" healing, so to speak. 244 hps is a lot of healing, but it's actually SO much that it's wasted sometimes, and it's about 25% of monk's energy.

The skills used differ somewhat for ElMo vs. Mo/x; bigger spells like Heal Other, Healing Seed, Heal Party, and even Heal Area are much more reasonable for an ElMo, and gain less benefit from being a Mo/Primary (unless you yourself are getting pummeled, the party/area heals don't benefit at all). Monk primaries -need- to use cheap spammy spells to benefit from Divine Favor.

In particular, Healing Seed is quite powerful, but not a great option for Monk Primaries, yet a fantastic option for Elementalists.

Note that I'm talking about both PvP and PvE here; obviously some things are more or less true for each situation (but ElMo and Mo/x are great healers for both).

JYX

Jun 02, 2005, 10:47 AM

erm...Divine boon is only efficient in very select circumstances. I made a graph here (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=139476&postcount=21) in the discussion thread here (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14853). This outlines the efficiency of the average boon healer. Note that the Heal Per Energy of Heal Other is only slightly lower than that of Orison which I used there. Therefore if you're relying on divine boon, it really is quite risky to say for sure that you're more efficient or can heal more than an arcanist.

While its true that the average monk will keep the team topped up over the course of a battle much more efficiently than an ele/monk recently I've recently been thinking about the possibility of an "arcane healer". Although I've only been thinking for about a day, my conclusions were the same as that of JoDiamonds'. With a larger energy pool you can outheal the kind of "wave" battles and spike damage that we get, simply by providing more healing than an enemy elementalist can put out in damage. Although in pitched KoTH fights, perhaps its unsuitable.

funbun

Jun 02, 2005, 11:21 AM

Good point I've noticed Elmos out healing monks time and time again. They realy should raise the energy level of monks.

Xavz

Jun 02, 2005, 11:42 AM

I use Healing Seed + Glyph of Lesser Energy on my Mo/El - Seed is very viable on a primary Monk if you use it correctly.

If you're managing energy correctly, it's not that hard to keep up with a primary Monk, not to mention Mo/* using spam heals is far less vulnerable to Mesmer energy denial than is a E/Mo using larger heals.

nennafir

Jun 02, 2005, 01:08 PM

Good point I've noticed Elmos out healing monks time and time again. They realy should raise the energy level of monks.

Not really. The whole point of an elementalist is that it is the profession designed always to have energy. It should be viable to use this "always has energy" property with your sub-professions in a build as well. i.e., 14 energy storage and then 12 in some sub-profession attribute that has a lot of energy. Remember, this is an E/?? that is basically devoting ALL of their points to one specific quality of their ?? sub-profession. I do not see this as unbalanced. You are only able to do one thing with the build, after all.

The real problem you are getting at is that some of the professions primary attributes are not that useful, or are not as versatile, comparatively speaking. Let's be honest, Monks still rate very highly here. Other professions are still much more short changed (necromancers?).

Divine favor lets monks heal THEMSELVES better, as spells like divine healing, healing touch are not really viable or that useful for secondary monks. When my E/Mo is really getting pounded, the only viable self-heal strategy involves a dial-a-heal circuit of heals with heal area as one of the heals, and heal area will heal any enemy warriors next to you. Also, Divine favor lets you deal better with quick spike damage.

So I think primary monks are not gimped, I merely wanted to point out that an E/Mo with 12 healing attribute, 14 energy storage, and thus 84+ energy, can really basically keep on healing for forever with their energy and energy storage skills. Again, this is not unbalanced, as you have really spec'd yourself to be able to do nothing but heal. I merely wanted to disagree with the original poster on this threads claim that people should not accept secondary monks, as I think that is just silly.

Aug

Jun 02, 2005, 02:36 PM

funbun

Jun 02, 2005, 02:47 PM

Aug I've found the same thing. I have done mre effecient healing using protection prayers in the manner which you describe. With Brute healing spell and Div Favor I was over healing like a mutha. Put to hihj powered healing monk in a group and they do nothing but step all over each other.

Div Favor and Boon with protection spell is plenty of healing for me. PLus the protection spells with the group additional armor/health point or whatever.

nennafir

Jun 02, 2005, 03:29 PM

A Monk with high Divine Favor, Divine Boon, and Peace & Harmony can last plenty long, and heal far more efficiently and quickly than an El/Mo. The key is to NOT use spells like Heal Other, Heal Area, Healing Seed, etc. You need to pick a handful of 5 en, fast casting, spammable spells to take full advantage of Divine Favor & Divine Boon. And the best spells, from my experience, work out to be Protection Prayers, because they're faster casts than most Healing Prayers, and you're less likely to overheal.

"far" more efficiently and quickly? Not sure about this. Heal other for me takes 10 energy and heals for 150. You are casting some 5 energy spell that might heal for 150 with all of the bonuses you get.

This means it is all equal. Why?

* I have TWICE the energy of you.
* With ether prodigy, I have TWICE the energy regen of you

So for spells of this type, I still come out equal to you.

When it comes to spells like heal party, the E/Mo kicks ass over the Mo/xx.

Where we fail is with spike damage healing and healing ourselves.

But to say that the primary monks are "far" better is simply false, as a numbers analysis shows. Each has their strengths and weaknesses, but are about equal overall.

Neo-LD

Jun 02, 2005, 05:22 PM

but your spells only heal for like half that a monks do. If someone is getting nuked, there isnt squat that an ElMo can do to stop it.

JYX

Jun 03, 2005, 03:34 AM

Not half. If someone's getting nuked? Drop a healing seed for 25 health every time someone touches this guy. Drop a protective spirit for protection. Drop a Healing Breeze for 160 health. Drop a Heal Other for 151 health. Drop a Word of Healing for 150 health. If things are really going downhill and he's getting focused on, drop an infuse health. Then just start topping up with heal others.

Do all this in 5.75 seconds. A monk primary cannot do all this. Why not? It costs 60 energy to do and then more to sustain. An ele/mo with energy storage can have 96 energy.

It is in these situations where an ele/mo really shines. In dealing with focus, people getting nuked, he can put out more healing in a shorter space of time than the monk ever can. After he runs out of his stored energy, theres no way that he can compete with a monk for healing due to divine favor and boon.

Note that I am not suggesting you use this to deal with spike damage, in this situation two spells dictate whether the person lives or dies, the extra healing a monk can bring in favor and boon will really help. However, for focus, and as my illustrious friend states "someone getting nuked" the ele/mo will be able to outheal a monk for a certain amount of time. Using one is a risk, no doubt. You are betting that the enemy lets up before this guy runs out of energy, because when he burns through his energy the heals go downhill really quick. Although he can use ether prodigy to prop himself up for a while longer, this time where he is useful is still very finite.

A Monk with high Divine Favor, Divine Boon, and Peace & Harmony can last plenty long, and heal far more efficiently and quickly than an El/Mo.

efficiently? Most definately yes the monk will be much more efficient. Quickly? No, thats the entire point here.

nennafir

Jun 03, 2005, 01:10 PM

Although he can use ether prodigy to prop himself up for a while longer, this time where he is useful is still very finite.

First, you mentioned using word of healing above, and that will have to go if you use ether prodigy.

However, I want to say that ether prodigy basically lasts forever and makes you have twice the enrgy regen of a normal monk. I mean with high energy storage attribute, it lasts about 30 secs. It only costs 5 energy, takes 1 sec to cast. If someone removes it as an enchantment from you, the recast time is only 5 secs.

Yes, it causes a little exhaustion, but not enough to ever matter even in really, really, really long fights. So I find the statement that saying the "time where he is useful is still very finite" a little puzzling.

You run your energy to almost nothing, then you kick in ether prodigy and just keep using it whenever it runs out. This gives you double the energy regen you would normally have, and allows you to more or less repeat 2 sec cast 15 energy spells with only minor pauses or 1 sec cast 10 energy spells. Has the exhaustion ever really effected you and made it more finite? Even in fights lasting 10 mins with no break at all from casting, the exhaustion is never an issue. I am just curious here.

I still would like some advice on how an E/Mo is supposed to heal THEMSELVES when they are getting nuked. All of your good options are taken away here: heal other, healing seed can't be used. Divine healing and healing touch not that great because of no divine favor. There's just heal area, orison of healing, and healing breeze. Of these, heal area is the only one that packs a punch.

My pvp experience as a heal spec'd E/Mo is that as long as there is me and another monk and the other team is attacking the monk, I can keep him healed without ever running dry with prodigy. Even after he announces to the team that he is without mana, I can still keep piling on the heals and keep him alive. BUT if the other team wises up and realizes that I am doing healing and comes after me, I am going down quickly. Any advice?

JoDiamonds

Jun 03, 2005, 04:16 PM

IF you find a primary monk using signet of devotion, he sucks. You dont gain any benefit from divine using signets.

Unless, of course, that signet is tied to Divine Favor, such as Signet of Devotion. Turns out this MIGHT be relevant.

If you find a secondary monk using signet of devotion, THEN you know he's a bit confused.

Eclair

Jun 03, 2005, 06:29 PM

The monk could also be a protector monk with high divine favor and protection prayers, and therefore the only direct healing spell he/she has is signet of devotion =P

funbun

Jun 03, 2005, 07:16 PM

Don't forget Divine Boon. That turn all protection spells into healing spells

Neo-LD

Jun 03, 2005, 10:37 PM

An ElMo may have more mana than a primary monk, but thats about it.

You cannot deny that primary monks simply heal more per spell. Restricting themselves to low-cost spells (all the good ones only cost 5 or 0 anyways) they wont run out of mana without the interference of a mesmer.

Healing more per spell is 10x more important than the ability to spam everywehere in PvP. People get killed by nukes, not attrition.

Secondly, ElMos cannot effectively use the prot line. Monks can. Mind you, the prot line is just as good as the healing line OR BETTER for PvP, but thats another discussion.

Lastly, you forget that monk primaries can have a second class too. An intelligent Mo/N that brings Offering of Blood will actually have MORE mana than an ElMo, since repeated castings of that >>> a big max mana pool. Kinda sucks that a monk primary can out-spam your precious ElMo, huh?

JoDiamonds

Jun 04, 2005, 01:34 AM

JYX

Jun 04, 2005, 06:18 AM

First, you mentioned using word of healing above, and that will have to go if you use ether prodigy.

I mentioned ether prodigy at the end, I wasn't suggesting you all use it in the same build.

However, I want to say that ether prodigy basically lasts forever and makes you have twice the enrgy regen of a normal monk. I mean with high energy storage attribute, it lasts about 30 secs. It only costs 5 energy, takes 1 sec to cast. If someone removes it as an enchantment from you, the recast time is only 5 secs.

Yes, it causes a little exhaustion, but not enough to ever matter even in really, really, really long fights. So I find the statement that saying the "time where he is useful is still very finite" a little puzzling.

My point before about using e/mo to counter focus fire really stands out here. 10 points less energy every time you cast the thing is not "little" thats 10 more points every time the enchantment is stripped or rended. In addition to this capping your maximum energy level too much using a spell which causes exhaustion really goes against the purpose of this build.

You run your energy to almost nothing, then you kick in ether prodigy and just keep using it whenever it runs out. This gives you double the energy regen you would normally have, and allows you to more or less repeat 2 sec cast 15 energy spells with only minor pauses or 1 sec cast 10 energy spells. Has the exhaustion ever really effected you and made it more finite? Even in fights lasting 10 mins with no break at all from casting, the exhaustion is never an issue. I am just curious here.

No it hasn't, I was still able to keep casting. You're absolutely right in that you will basically never run out of energy. However, a well built mo/me mo/n mo/e will also never run out of energy. They can spam as much as you can, in which circumstance I'm going to go out on a limb and say I want the guy with Divine Favor bonus and Divine Boon at the ready.

This is what I mean by usefulness being finite. Perhaps I chose the wrong word, they are still useful. Its just that the time where a e/mo is MORE useful than a monk primary is limited.

I still would like some advice on how an E/Mo is supposed to heal THEMSELVES when they are getting nuked. All of your good options are taken away here: heal other, healing seed can't be used. Divine healing and healing touch not that great because of no divine favor. There's just heal area, orison of healing, and healing breeze. Of these, heal area is the only one that packs a punch.

Healing breeze is a 160 health heal, thats some punch. Although I have to ask, you have a team of seven people including at least one other monk. What are they all doing? Any experienced GvG monk primary will tell you that they cannot rely just on themselves to keep alive. Thus that you have trouble with this is nothing to do with you being ele primary.

The reaction is going to be the same no matter what, drop a protective spirit, drop a healing breeze on top of this, and beg for healing/protection down voice chat.

My pvp experience as a heal spec'd E/Mo is that as long as there is me and another monk and the other team is attacking the monk, I can keep him healed without ever running dry with prodigy. Even after he announces to the team that he is without mana, I can still keep piling on the heals and keep him alive. BUT if the other team wises up and realizes that I am doing healing and comes after me, I am going down quickly. Any advice?

I've seen a lot of Korean PUGs run E/Mo's using a couple of wards, then massive healing spells such as healing seed on the person who's getting focused. This is quite a self-sustained defensive build, and I'm not sure why it appears to be very popular in Korean PUGs yet I've never seen a European PUG do this. But yes, in tombs wards can be your best friend, and I assume from what you're saying that you play in tombs a lot.

Neo-LD

Jun 04, 2005, 05:19 PM

Man, why are you making this a "me vs. you" discussion? People aren't going around saying your character sucks, why are you?

Also, you make some strange statements. Go play as an ElMo for a while. It's informative.

As many, many people have said, both primary monks and ElMos can make fine healers. No need to get defensive about either one.

You dislike 1 to 1 discussions? I would be happy to talk with other people, all they have to do is jump in. /invites people to agree or disagree with me

The reason why I dislike your character is simple. It threatens game balance. IF an ElMo is just as good at healing as a monk primary, then there is little point to a monk. Its the same reason why ranger primaries are shunned. (an example of a threat to imbalance that was never checked and has resulted in 1/6 of all possible builds becoming relatively null)

Luckily, ths instance is slightly different. An Elementalist may be better at ranged damage than a ranger, but there is no way that they are better at healing than actual monks. For the reasons listed

Elementalists should do their job --- destroy things. Its what they are good at. There are practiaclly an infinite number of Ele builds that can effectively make stuff die. This is similar to a monk trying to be effective with a smiter build --- it doesnt work well. Granted, ElMos are better than smiter monks, and they arent so terrible that they will ruin a party, but if Im the Party Leader you better believe (most) ElMos wont get invitations.

Master Drake

Jun 04, 2005, 09:05 PM

I'd like to add my few cents in here.

First, to all those Blood Necros out there. Consider taking Blood Ritual with you for your monks. I was able to keep the standard party of 8 alive and win Ring of Fire as the only monk, and the only healer... but only because of one thing. I had a friendly necro who worked with me using Blood Ritual so I could effectively energy manage that many people.

----

But... I disagree with the topic creator - and more importantly the previous poster, Neo-LD - about monk secondaries. While in PvE I play a primary monk, I switch over to a E/Mo for PvP so I can dodge the "whole team attacking you" bullet while healing and managing energy effectively. Turns out I've never been able to keep a team going anywhere near HoH with the primary monk, while I've been to HoH a few times with the E/Mo. Hate to say it because I prefer to the primary monk, but unless balance is changed, E/Mo far outheals (in terms of stastic-based HP consideration) a normal monk in the long run, game balance be hung. On the other hand, a primary monk that is built to take more advantage of Divine Favor (and Divine Favor skills) has the E/Mos hands down, just in a different way. Both classes make effective healers, just... differently.

As far as "Elementalists should do their job" as stated, that sounds like the same class based "Do your job" stuff monks are trying to avoid. Senseless. If all monks healed and all elementalists nuked and all warriors ran forward and killed stuff, this game would be a load of fun wouldnt it? Smiter builds have won HoH several times in the past, trying new things is not a bad idea - the balances are always being tweaked.

Oh yea what was I saying?

Necros, blood ritual. I would love to see more of that in my groups lol.

buggsy

Jun 04, 2005, 09:18 PM

I've recently dropped the idea of using Blood ritual and/or Blood is Power with my necro for PvP. By the time you subtract the mana cost of the spell (to your necro) to how much mana gets added to the end user (monk), to the monk actually healing you after you sacrifice life (less mana for monk), theres barely any gain for the entire party system.

I've gone with enfeeble/faintheartedness to save my monk from having to use mana in the first place (I find it far more mana efficient, FAR FAR more mana efficient) Those two spells in combination, its virtually like casting pacify, warriors and rangers do barely any damage afterwards.

Master Drake

Jun 04, 2005, 10:02 PM

Well if Blood Ritual didn't help, I'd like to understand how we got through Ring of Fire with me as the only healer. Blood is Power on the other hand might be a little too overboard... thats an interesting spell but you gotta throw out an elite to use it.

JoDiamonds

Jun 05, 2005, 03:12 AM

You dislike 1 to 1 discussions? I would be happy to talk with other people, all they have to do is jump in. /invites people to agree or disagree with me
I'm sorry, I was unclear. Rephrased: Why are taking an incredibly defense stance on one side of this issue and outright insulting the other side? You reply as if I called your momma fat when I said a class besides monk can also be a good healer. (I'm not even sure it was me personally, there have been a number of people on both sides of this issue, whatever issue it might actually be.)

I never actually meant *you* and *me* specifically, which was very bad word choice on my part. I apologize.

The reason why I dislike your character is simple. It threatens game balance.

OK. That's a weird way to state it, but I believe I understand your point. I happily accept that you would LIKE primary monks to be better healers than any secondary monks. Trying to play a healer with an Elmo can't threaten game balance much. ;) At no point was I (or anyone else, as far as I could tell) suggesting ArenaNet change things so that ElMos heal better than they currently do. THAT could threaten game balance.

It's one thing to state how you would like game design to be (in theory), and another to say how things actually are (with the current game rules and balance as actually implemented, which could include any number of bugs of any kinds, including design bugs).

I would like world peace (at least for a while). It would be folly for me to state that there IS world peace.

In the same manner, saying that Elmos cannot heal as well as monk primaries is wildly different than saying Elmos *shouldn't* be able to heal as well as monk primaries.

If we're talking about game design, let's talk about game design. If we're talking about exploiting an existing set of rules to minimax and beat up others (whether they be humans or electronic monsters), well, let's do that. As a third option, we can even talk about whether or not the reality (the current game rules etc.) match up to the goal.

If the goal is for primary monks to clearly outclass secondary monks in healing, so be it. (Obviously each person has their own goals in mind, AND how they would go about it.)

Disliking an existing class because it doesn't fit in with the idea of how you would like the game to work is ... well, it's mostly irrelevant. I don't like war, but asserting that it doesn't exist doesn't help anyone.

Way too much having been said, on to your design goals:

IF an ElMo is just as good at healing as a monk primary, then there is little point to a monk. Its the same reason why ranger primaries are shunned. (an example of a threat to imbalance that was never checked and has resulted in 1/6 of all possible builds becoming relatively null)

Hmmm, I'm sure there are many who would disagree that ranger primaries are shunned. In fact, I've seen a number of posts where other people have stated that Ranger seems to be the most common profession. (I'm not claiming that myself, but it IS what I've seen people say.)

Also, while I realize that ArenaNet is wisely trying to balance things effectively for competitive play, you are simply wrong in that there would be no point to a monk. Even if only for Role-Playing purposes, the monk would still be used quite a bit. (And to say that there's no point for a class when it would be an extremely popular secondary class seems to be missing at least part of the point.)

That said, I don't really disagree with you that perhaps Monk primaries should be the best healers in the game. I'd have to think about it more, but since the Monk primary attribute is exclusively about healing, it would be foolish for them to not be superiour. (I don't know if it's actually TRUE, but it seems like a fine goal at least on some level.)

Luckily, ths instance is slightly different. An Elementalist may be better at ranged damage than a ranger, but there is no way that they are better at healing than actual monks. For the reasons listed

I am at least glad you believe reality to fit in with your design goals. =)

I'm far more skeptical, but it will all come out in the wash (and an awful lot of playtesting).

I hope that ArenaNet keeps a lot of statistics. For the game in general, and especially "competitive" play, so they can see what's actually working and what isn't. Still tricky, since humans are fickle and popularity contests matter, and there's still some skills that are going to need to exist largely to make PvE players happy that shouldn't really be powerful in PvP. And since to a decent extent the game is RockPaperScissors based, what's seen as "good" by the players should always be shifting in response to other player's builds. (i.e. If all-monk healer teams are becoming really popular, you could expect that Mesmers would start getting more popular after that... after which you might see Rangers getting popular as a counter to Mesmers, etc.)

Elementalists should do their job --- destroy things. Its what they are good at. There are practiaclly an infinite number of Ele builds that can effectively make stuff die. This is similar to a monk trying to be effective with a smiter build --- it doesnt work well. Granted, ElMos are better than smiter monks, and they arent so terrible that they will ruin a party, but if Im the Party Leader you better believe (most) ElMos wont get invitations.

I disagree with your playstyle in general (the idea that everyone should conform to the currently accepted "best" builds, because experimentation and personal playstyle are very important, amongst other things), but it's your perogative. I also don't know if you are talking about PvP or PvE, but it probably doesn't matter.

One random last thought (which anyone should feel free to answer, of course):

You state that monks cannot be effective smiters, etc. (Debatable, but let's accept it as Simply True.)

Is there another class which is better at smiting?
Presumably, monks should be the best smiters. Or are ElMos better at it, or MeMos? (or whatever!)
If so, is that a design flaw, since smiting is a monk skill?

Neo-LD

Jun 05, 2005, 12:21 PM

I'm sorry, I was unclear. Rephrased: Why are taking an incredibly defense stance on one side of this issue and outright insulting the other side? You reply as if I called your momma fat when I said a class besides monk can also be a good healer. (I'm not even sure it was me personally, there have been a number of people on both sides of this issue, whatever issue it might actually be.)

I never actually meant *you* and *me* specifically, which was very bad word choice on my part. I apologize.

OK. That's a weird way to state it, but I believe I understand your point. I happily accept that you would LIKE primary monks to be better healers than any secondary monks. Trying to play a healer with an Elmo can't threaten game balance much. ;) At no point was I (or anyone else, as far as I could tell) suggesting ArenaNet change things so that ElMos heal better than they currently do. THAT could threaten game balance.

It's one thing to state how you would like game design to be (in theory), and another to say how things actually are (with the current game rules and balance as actually implemented, which could include any number of bugs of any kinds, including design bugs).

I would like world peace (at least for a while). It would be folly for me to state that there IS world peace.

In the same manner, saying that Elmos cannot heal as well as monk primaries is wildly different than saying Elmos *shouldn't* be able to heal as well as monk primaries.

If we're talking about game design, let's talk about game design. If we're talking about exploiting an existing set of rules to minimax and beat up others (whether they be humans or electronic monsters), well, let's do that. As a third option, we can even talk about whether or not the reality (the current game rules etc.) match up to the goal.

If the goal is for primary monks to clearly outclass secondary monks in healing, so be it. (Obviously each person has their own goals in mind, AND how they would go about it.)

Disliking an existing class because it doesn't fit in with the idea of how you would like the game to work is ... well, it's mostly irrelevant. I don't like war, but asserting that it doesn't exist doesn't help anyone.

Way too much having been said, on to your design goals:

Hmmm, I'm sure there are many who would disagree that ranger primaries are shunned. In fact, I've seen a number of posts where other people have stated that Ranger seems to be the most common profession. (I'm not claiming that myself, but it IS what I've seen people say.)

Also, while I realize that ArenaNet is wisely trying to balance things effectively for competitive play, you are simply wrong in that there would be no point to a monk. Even if only for Role-Playing purposes, the monk would still be used quite a bit. (And to say that there's no point for a class when it would be an extremely popular secondary class seems to be missing at least part of the point.)

That said, I don't really disagree with you that perhaps Monk primaries should be the best healers in the game. I'd have to think about it more, but since the Monk primary attribute is exclusively about healing, it would be foolish for them to not be superiour. (I don't know if it's actually TRUE, but it seems like a fine goal at least on some level.)

I am at least glad you believe reality to fit in with your design goals. =)

I'm far more skeptical, but it will all come out in the wash (and an awful lot of playtesting).

I hope that ArenaNet keeps a lot of statistics. For the game in general, and especially "competitive" play, so they can see what's actually working and what isn't. Still tricky, since humans are fickle and popularity contests matter, and there's still some skills that are going to need to exist largely to make PvE players happy that shouldn't really be powerful in PvP. And since to a decent extent the game is RockPaperScissors based, what's seen as "good" by the players should always be shifting in response to other player's builds. (i.e. If all-monk healer teams are becoming really popular, you could expect that Mesmers would start getting more popular after that... after which you might see Rangers getting popular as a counter to Mesmers, etc.)

I disagree with your playstyle in general (the idea that everyone should conform to the currently accepted "best" builds, because experimentation and personal playstyle are very important, amongst other things), but it's your perogative. I also don't know if you are talking about PvP or PvE, but it probably doesn't matter.

One random last thought (which anyone should feel free to answer, of course):

You state that monks cannot be effective smiters, etc. (Debatable, but let's accept it as Simply True.)

Is there another class which is better at smiting?
Presumably, monks should be the best smiters. Or are ElMos better at it, or MeMos? (or whatever!)
If so, is that a design flaw, since smiting is a monk skill?

For disliking "me vs you discussions" you have a lot of spunk. Laying aside many of the abstract situations and theorycraft that you like to employ, I will lay out for you very simply a comparison between a Mo/Nec and an El/Mo.

Quality of Spells:
Mo/Nec has Divine Favor, which puts him UNDENIABLY ahead in this category. Free HP is a good thing. It DF also gives him access to prot spells, which are a realm lost to El/Mos. Prot spells are (debatably) better than healing spells. Divine Favor also gives the Mo/Nec access to some of the most important spells a monk can have, like divine boon and signet of devotion. Again, the ElMo cannot use any of these for lack of DF.

Quantity of spells:
A category governed by ability to spam. The ElMo does have a much larger maximum mana pool, this is true. ElMos also can use Ether Prodigy to spam even more. However, Mo/Necs can cast spells just as often and for just as long a time due to Offering of Blood. While the ElMos mana can hover at 50, the Mo/Necs will hover at ~20, but they will still be casting sells at the same rate. Hence, this category is even.

Practicality for PvP:
How do people die in competitive PvP? Nukes and conditions. "DoT" Attrition is not very effective. How does one deal with nukes? Heal more in a shorter amount of time. Conveniantly, Mo/Necs can use DF and Divine Boon, while ElMos cannot. How does one get rid of conditions? Well, the prot line has many skills that can totally refute conditions (draw conditions, mend ailment, mend condition) Also conveniantly, Mo/Necs can use prot spells effectively. ElMos cant.

For me, there are way too many "Mo/Necs can" and "ElMos cant" for me not to say: Mo/Nec > ElMo.

As for "who is the best smiter", that is not the way things are divided up. They arent "who is the best marksmen" or "who is the best curse guy". They are divided into who is the best at melee damage, ranged damage, tanking, saving people, etc. Multiple classes can be good at certain things. For example, Sniper Rangers, Lightning, Water, Earth, and Fire Elementalists, Death, Blood, and Even cursing Necros, and smite monks all fall into the "ranged damage category. Undoubtedly, not all of those equally good at ranged damage.

It is ironic that most people's perception of perfect game balance invovles all builds being equally good, weather they be a monk/Ele that wants to burn things, or the rock-solid lightning mage currently used by most PvP teams. This is not game balance. Like I have said before, not all builds are created equal. Otherwise this would not be a game of skill.

JoDiamonds

Jun 05, 2005, 01:00 PM

Neo-LD: In my last post, I never made any claims about which class was actually the best healer. You can feel free to keep harping about it, but I don't care and that certainly had little do anything I was trying to say. So no offense, but I'll just ignore the rest, since you are mostly repeating yourself, and I did read it when you said it last time.

(Also, is it bad that I have spunk, or good? I can never figure that out. Anyway, as I already said, I don't actually dislike you vs. me per se, and I apolized for badly wording it last time.)

Also, you seem to be back to talking about how the game is, not how it should be. I'm sorry if you don't actually like to talk about theory, but it's confusing if you sound like you are talking about one but mean the other.

What makes you say that most people's perceptions of perfect game balance involves all builds being equally good? That would be stupid, and obviously isn't the way game actually works, either.

It's definitely and obviously true that not all builds are created equal, and they shouldn't be. If my eight skills are from eight different attributes, obviously it's going to be fairly ineffective. I think it's also true that this is a good thing, and having all builds be equal would just suck.

Since you lump all ranged attacks together, and don't think Monks can be effective smiters, do you feel that Smiting is a useless attribute? i.e. Anything that a smiter can do, there's another class that can do it better?

Maybe smiting is too weak, if it turns out that in reality no one should play it. In which case Arena Net SHOULD make it stronger, or take it out of the game, right?

I don't know if you understand that I'm really asking because I'm curious about the answer, not because I'm trying to put you on the spot or anything. I'm curious about ANYONE'S answer. This is where I feel you are getting pretty defensive. I have *never* once claimed that Monks aren't the best healers (they are), but you repeatedly defend that position as if someone insulted your sister's honor. I've tried to make the claim that Elmos can heal effectively. You haven't denied this, instead you just keep saying, "MY DAD CAN BEAT UP YOUR DAD". OK, your dad can beat up my dad. Could you admit that my Dad doesn't suck? ;-)

JoDiamonds

Jun 05, 2005, 01:01 PM

Also, if other people are getting annoyed, or if the admins feel this is too flamewarlike, please let me know however you want and I'll just shut up. Sorry if that's the case!

Neo-LD

Jun 05, 2005, 01:28 PM

I never talked about your parents. Lol j/k.

ElMos dont suck. Happy? They can heal very well. Good enough to keep most teams alive. They are in fact much easier *less likely that you'll screw up* than regular monks. My dislike for ElMos sprouts from... I call it a "rivalry" with a "friend" who is convinved that he does a better job than I do when our PvP team goes to HoH. If I was in charge, I would like to change him (or at least his spot on the team) to a regular monk healer, but thats currently not my call.

Ive voiced my opinion. Its not my job nor desire to convince everyone that Im right. (Ive been wrong before, but not often)

Anyways if it works for you go ahead. One of the greatest elements of this game is how many ways there are to play any given class.

I dont think this was a flamewar or anything. It was a debate. Its healthy for the community, otherwise everyone would go around agreeing with eachother, sometimes reassuring eachother's stupidity. lol. So in a totally-not-condescending-but-in-a-sportsmanlike-tone-of-voice---gg.

SisterMercy

Jun 05, 2005, 03:28 PM

... That said, these are some tips for NON-monks that (I think) will help everyone in this community to co-exist better...

Oh, I don't know... "WANT A GOOD MONK WHO ISN'T A ----ING MORON TO JOIN OUR PARTY" sounds so appealing....

Must work, too, because they're still using this approach hours later. :rolleyes:

3. Do not settle for a secondary class monk. Despite what others might tell you, a character without Divine Favor is not a healer.

Ele-monk isn't too bad, once players get a true feel for switching gears between offence and defence. My ele-monk is sometimes maxed in Healing Prayers, and that helps tremendously, but I still prefer to go in as support healing... even if I've ended up being primary healer many times for one reason or another (i.e. disconnects, monk turns out to be pure smiting, or someone doesn't listen and enters mission without a monk). That said, I think I do pretty well -- when I don't get swarmed and killed. :o

4. Grab the healer henchman if you run out of patience. She's actually very good at healing, despite a crippling lack of a foresight.

She's also good at charging in when you don't want her to, aggroing everything in sight, and sailing away off through mountains when everyone gets rezzed (where DO you find that levitation skill, anyway?) :D

I find her to be hit-and-miss. Works not too bad when I'm soloing with henchies, but unpredictable when surrounded by an equally unpredictable party.

1. Avoid telling him how to play his class. I grouped with a guy in Fort Koga once, we went up against a disorganized gaggle of w/mo's and hacked them to bits. I put healing seed on him, and since it gave the appearance that we took no damage he felt the need to say "remember to heal us monk"...

"Remember to beat them up, warrior." Or keep them off us, at least.

I was helping out a friend at Thirsty River, and the last boss was a monk boss, of course. Knowing he'd keep healing the priest to no end, I watched him for heals and then hit him with Power Block (Mesmer elite, which I'd acquired and which disables all skills of that attribute -- i.e. Healing Prayers -- for awhile). Afterwards, even though we won the mission, someone was screaming about how much of an idiot I was for not attacking the priest along with everyone else.

Sometimes, we know what we're doing better than anyone else does.

SisterMercy

Jun 05, 2005, 03:29 PM

(had to go to two parts because the quotes counted for too many images...?)

2. If you run off alone, you will die alone, and the only fault will be yours. There are no cross-country heals in our repertoir. If you expect to be healed, stay close to us.

Hey! I thought "Restore Party" was supposed to do that... :D

5. Don't touch him if he's in full tattoos. Your hands are cold.

But tats are so sexy! :D

Scenario: You all just died.

@#$%! monk....

1. Resist the urge to blame everything on the monk.

Oh. Sorry.... :P

2. Did you bring res signet? I hope so. If not, bring it next time.

I don't get how people still don't bring along a rez of some sort.

Divine favor lets monks heal THEMSELVES better, as spells like divine healing, healing touch are not really viable or that useful for secondary monks. When my E/Mo is really getting pounded, the only viable self-heal strategy involves a dial-a-heal circuit of heals with heal area as one of the heals, and heal area will heal any enemy warriors next to you. Also, Divine favor lets you deal better with quick spike damage.

I always bring along my 5-energy Orison to spam myself (and anyone I'm in charge of protecting) with along with the Ele Aura of Restoration. The rest of the heals are for the party. Works not too badly.

Put to hihj powered healing monk in a group and they do nothing but step all over each other.

I've seen this happen a few times when two monks start cursing up a storm because there's "too many" healers in a party. I don't get this. It's a Freudian thing, right? ("My heals are bigger than your heals...")

Silvanus

Jun 05, 2005, 08:23 PM

Everyone in a party should keep an eye on the monk at all times. If something starts to attack your party's monk go and assist them. When the monk is under attack it will be harder to effectively heal the group. Most of the time others will figure since the monk is in the rear they will be protected, not always so. Take care of your monk and they will take care of you.

I totally agree. The other night I was playing my lvl 12 monk somewhere in Shiverpeaks and my team split into two groups for some stupid reason and pulled two large mobs (even though earlier I told them that healing is much easier if the group stays together). So I was healing two fronts at one time and then it got worse, three of the Stone Summit decided to rush me even though I was behind our front line. So here I was being pummled by three enemies while healing nearly everyone on my team. One of our warriors noticed I was under attack and tried to help (good warrior!), but after about 20-30 seconds my mana ran out and I was killed. Luckily, we barely beat both mobs and I was rezzed with a signet...god bless the res signet!

Morale of the storey, protect you monk and if you dont have res bring the res signet.

alvin

Jun 07, 2005, 04:26 PM

Great post. Here are the things that bug me as a PVE Monk (not my first character).

1. A Warrior (2-3 lvls lower then the rest) rushes into a group of monsters and starts to die real fast and then when they are almost dead they decide to run away TOWARDS ME and dies near me, bringing 8 monsters.

2. A Player seems to still have the starting armor on in the crystal dessert. When they get hit half their health goes. I end up spending most of my heals on this one character. Or a person has DP of 50% and still decides to rush first wasting all my health spells.

3. We just finished killing 10 monters, my energy is at 1 (I ctrl my energy), and players still decide to rush to the next group of monsters. They then scream for the monk or press ctrl on their health bar wondering why I am not doing my job.

If I see the team sucks early on I just quit and find another team. Most times I just build my own team where I try to get another monk. Two monks on a team makes the mission easy. And I have enough smite where I still do some good damage while healing.

And I only use Monk skills. My secondary is next to useless. The smite skills are not only strong, but can be combined with other Monk skills to be even stronger. I also prefer quick low energy heals to take advantage of Divine Favor Attrib, Divine Boon for more heal, and then Zealots fire so I am also doing 60 dmg to all nearby enemies while I heal.

Everyone knows Monks are important, but if you get a monk that knows what they are doing your team will kick butt. If the monk leaves then good chance your group was filled with a bunch of newbs.

stumpy

Jun 07, 2005, 05:26 PM

and I know this is going to appear outta line ...

but here goes (keep in mind I am a mo/n20 with 2 other 20 characters, but monk is the most enjoyable)

after reading and weaving through all of these posts this thread has deteriorated to a sad point. Originally was kinda humourous and true we see it in game all the time. But now (we got a mines bigger contest politely held with etiquette)

Nothing wrong with that but the point of the thread is dissipitating fast. So either change the name of this topic to Im a monk and I gotta vent on u ... or get over it and re-read the first 2 pages and post some useful suggestions for OTHERS to see.

Reading this argumentative jibberish will not help.

To save this post from being useless ... here's a compliment ... I often will get complimented by my partners like Sasha, Volianna, and Get R Done, .... as a curtousy (instead of just reaping the rewards, I'm a monk, please rub my ego) ... I extend the same fortune to all who I see doing a good job ... not just monks. If I see someone try take the reigns, boss, control, or manipulate another player, I will intervene and explain all ofthe goods things they are doing, and usually this kinda attitude will 'Pay It Forward' (<<- rent movie) thus making your game more enjoyable

zoozoc

Jun 07, 2005, 09:29 PM

3. Do not settle for a secondary monk. Despite what others might tell you, a character without Divine Favor is not a healer.

I really appreciate you writing this, but I totally disagree in every way with this point. I'm an e/mo and I can heal just as good, if not better than a primary monk. First, divine favor is'nt all that its cracked up to be, sure its helpful, but you can heal just fine without it. Secondly, me being an e/mo means I have access to Energy Storage, which means I have a lot more energy than a primary monk, meaning I can heal longer than a primary monk. Most battles, especially towards the end, are long and require a lot of healing, in this situations I can be even better than a primary monk regardless of the fact that he/she has Divine Favor.

Sorry if I flamed you a bit, I really appreciate what you wrote about monks (which includes me).

vLx

Jun 08, 2005, 04:45 AM

3. You discover they brought resurrection signet to the battle. But by this time it's too late!

i disagree with you. im playing a monk for some time now and realized the res signet does a good job during the battle. (ofcourse i take another res skill with me). its fast and the target is regened. and its ok if you can use it only 1 time cause if your group dies like flies there is no chance you can win cause your morale is very important.

Neo-LD

Jun 08, 2005, 05:52 AM

Schorny

Jun 08, 2005, 05:56 AM

i disagree with you. im playing a monk for some time now and realized the res signet does a good job during the battle. (ofcourse i take another res skill with me).
Me too.
If I have a free place in my skill bar I'll fill it with the signet. I've played in teams without a monk and the res signet kicked our opponents ass, because they let their monk(s) res and all people had half health :)

Of course we lost against strong teams, but it was awesome to see the power of res signet. So I try to bring res signet as often as possible (sometimes I need more important skills so no room is left for the signet):

Keira Darkwind

Jun 08, 2005, 06:26 AM

Hm, I don't understand, why would you want to take a rez signet AND a normal rez spell? Sounds like a redundant choice to me...I have a hard enough time choosing what monk spells to take.

Blackace

Jun 08, 2005, 06:31 AM

El/mo's dont ever outheal df/hp monks. Even with the bigger energy pool a monk primary is much more effective ever since the boosts to Divine Favor and some changes to the monk in general a while ago. An E;/mo may have a bigger energy pool, but remember they are spending much more energy to keep up with a 5 energy orision healing for 96hp when they can only hit 60 hp. One of the few skills an El/Mo should be running to have a shot at doing high hp-high efficiency heals is Infuse Health at 12 Healing Prayers.

Xight

Jun 08, 2005, 03:49 PM

I really appreciate you writing this, but I totally disagree in every way with this point. I'm an e/mo and I can heal just as good, if not better than a primary monk. First, divine favor is'nt all that its cracked up to be, sure its helpful, but you can heal just fine without it. Secondly, me being an e/mo means I have access to Energy Storage, which means I have a lot more energy than a primary monk, meaning I can heal longer than a primary monk. Most battles, especially towards the end, are long and require a lot of healing, in this situations I can be even better than a primary monk regardless of the fact that he/she has Divine Favor.

Sorry if I flamed you a bit, I really appreciate what you wrote about monks (which includes me).

I use -1 energy weapons for 15 mana, and make up some of the difference in mana to start, then just switch over to a weapon that doesn't have -1 energy so I regen better during the fight. You prolly won't have full energy during a battle most times anyways so it just boils down to how much your heals can do during a stalemate over an extended period. It all depends on what your healing against.

I would agree if the battles were really short like in competition arenas that ElMos may outperform monk if you take out the opponent fast. However in HoH since the battles are soo long sometimes a monk would generally do better. In Pve Most battles are short too so it'd be about even.

I think it's too situational to really say this is the end all be all of monk discussions.