Granz Frontier: First Time Luxons Won?

[Zinger314]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v258/Zinger314/granz.jpg

The replies should indicate the situation.

Apprently the Luxons have pushed the line into Echovauld Forest, hence the Granz Frontier map, where the Kurzicks likely have the advantage. (As Luxons have the advantage in Eteran Keys)

I've been playing Alliance battles for a long time...and I've NEVER seen the Luxons push the line into the forest.

Why?

If so, is there a way to play this map more often? I'm sick of Eteran and Saltspray...

[Symeon]

Back near the release, the Luxons were actually winning, and the line moved back and forth between Grenz Frontier and Saltspray Beach a few times. I played on that map several times during that period, so this is nothing new, just recently the Kurzicks have been holding the Luxons back.

[Gmr Leon]

Hold on a sec,your saying the Kurzick,the people that no one in FPE wanted to play because they looked goth,have been winning since Factions came out? Wow,I thought I stayed up to date with the info on GW.I guess I was wrong...

[Sai of Winter]

Whoa, Grenz Frontier? Never heard of that place. Is it an Alliance Battle outpost/map when pushing the line further?

[Gmr Leon]

Whoa, Grenz Frontier? Never heard of that place. Is it an Alliance Battle outpost when pushing the line further?

Yep,sure is.

[d4nowar]

To clarify... that means Luxon pushed Kurzick back. Not the other way around.

Pick up the pace people (Kurzick). Start winning.

[Huntmaster]

The supply run was nerfed so all us luxons are doing Alliance battles and pwning?

[kvndoom]

The supply run was nerfed so all us luxons are doing Alliance battles and pwning?

I sure hope so! I've been tired of waiting 20+ minutes for you guys to show up! :D

[Formina]

I've played on this map before. I was very happy when I found out there were more maps than Saltspray beach and Enteran Keys! ^^

[Cyan The Archer]

To clarify... that means Luxon pushed Kurzick back. Not the other way around.

Pick up the pace people (Kurzick). Start winning.

Us Kurzicks are always winning, we just thought it would be fun to let you Luxons have a win for once in a while, we were getting kind of bored at the stupid jade.

[Maxiemonster]

So you guys mean that if Luxons wins, Kurzick gets the reward and via versa..? What's the logica in that?

[Snowman]

Yea I got to play this map today and we won a few but its hideously kurzick biased!

Even more so that Etneran keys is btw!..

the middle first point for Kurzick on grentz has TWO monks, wheras the luxon first middle point only has one.

and the reason why we dont see Grentz much is because saltspray isnt balanced, its definatly got the kurzick advantage, again the middle point!.. the saltspray roost is a much clearer path for kurzicks, and their two left and right bases are much closer than the luxon ones.

Its sad, but the maps are no indication of Luxon or Kurzick prowess, its just an indication of the maps being biased,

I wonder if they will ever address this?..even the kurzicks admit that they have never seen grentz.

[jmj102]

.even the kurzicks admit that they have never seen grentz.

Why would they? If they did see greantz it would mean that they are losing..

[Thom]

There are in fact, 5 maps total from what I understand 4 of which have actually been played to my knowledge. While the balance may play a slight role in recent trends, but I find it difficult to see how Anet hugely miscalculated distances on a fairly symetric map. Other things could play a role, for example the price of amber and the relative ease of faction farming for Luxons vs Kurzicks.

For a pvp player who simply wants to unlock and buy top weapons, kurzick is the natural choice simply due to amber prices. If I can pvp and make 2 gold per faction earned I'll go kurzick. Now if your pvp farmers are all going to one side, you will have an even larger effect on that side... players who just want to play with good players will go where the faction farmers go. Therefore your optimizers (winners) will tend to be kurzick creating the tendencies that currently exist. Note that this will likely swing back and forth, but this is an alternative explanation of current trends.

[Snowman]

There are in fact, 5 maps total from what I understand 4 of which have actually been played to my knowledge. While the balance may play a slight role in recent trends, but I find it difficult to see how Anet hugely miscalculated distances on a fairly symetric map. This is what I also thought, but can you verify that this is true?... if it IS true, then there are another 2 maps which are progressivly MORE biased to Kurzick?.... so there is ONE luxon biased map and 4 Kurzick Biased maps?... I agree, something is seriously wrong here.

Other things could play a role, for example the price of amber and the relative ease of faction farming for Luxons vs Kurzicks. well, they have stopped the luxon faction missions inbalance, the question is will they will sort the map inbalances of Alliance Battles?

[Snowman]

Why would they? If they did see greantz it would mean that they are losing.. Because the kurzicks are players like everyone else and so far we are only seeing two maps, out of the 'aleged' 5!... playing against the kurzicks at Grentz even the Kurzicks are glad of the sheer change of scenery! I hate playing etneran keys as luxons, its just so easy its sickly boring and there is NO sense of a challenge at all!

Everone likes a close game, even the kurzicks :)

[Ira Blinks]

Now I'm confused... Where is this place?

[clarianaeneas]

I have a question; to take part in an alliance battle, does your alliance need to declare it's allegiance to one of the two sides (so you get the npc in your guild hall), or is there another way to access the battles?

[Zinger314]

I have a question; to take part in an alliance battle, does your alliance need to declare it's allegiance to one of the two sides (so you get the npc in your guild hall), or is there another way to access the battles? Yes. Only way.

[BigTru]

It's kinda wierd... because I remember days when Kurzick took over almost all of the map, but we were still in Eternan Keys.

[Ken Dei]

If A.Net would simply switch the orientation of the side ramp of the Dragon Roost nearest the Luxon base to the other side, just about all the imbalence on the Saltpray map would be solved.

I'm waiting for a Kurzick to come in here and try and say "You're just complaining because you lose all the time."

Precisely, we lose way to much for it to be coincidence, or all bad players.

Regardless of physical numbers the team to team ratio will be 1:1, end of story.

If you had 48 Kurzicks and 24 Luxons. Only 24 Kurzicks would get to play at any given time.

Thus, since it's still random assigned teams; Luxons should have enough victories at certain times to make it to Grenz FAR more often then they do now.

Trash talk aside, the actual skill of the teams overall is about equal. Especially as time progresses.

The only conclusion that can be made from this information is that there is in fact an inheirant bias on the Saltspray map.

[konohamaru heaven]

As a side loses the losing side gains a more bias advantage. This is in fact an intended feature to help prevent one side from dominating the entire map

[SirJackassIII]

This is what I also thought, but can you verify that this is true?... if it IS true, then there are another 2 maps which are progressivly MORE biased to Kurzick?.... so there is ONE luxon biased map and 4 Kurzick Biased maps?... I agree, something is seriously wrong here.


So far:
- Etnaran Keys: Luxon Advantage
- Grenz Frontier: Kurzick Advantage

So I'm guessing:
- Unknown map #1 (when Kurzicks win a lot on Etnaran): bigger Luxon Advantage to prevent Kurzicks owning (and keeping) all of the map
- Unknown map #2 (when Luxons win a lot on Grenz): bigger Kurzick Advantage to prevent Luxons owning (and keeping) all of the map

So it's still biased on Saltspray Beach, Kurzicks have the advantage there, so it's a 3-2 inbalance. Could use a small fix, since it's not that fun playing Kurzick or Luxon if either side has an advantage/disadvantage. Even if they fix the map, people will get bored of playing the same map over and over again. Like a lot of people said, even the Kurzicks enjoy the change of scenery. It would be better if there were 2-3 maps with 0 advantage/disadvantage for either side to prevent people getting bored to fast.

[Spne]

Well.. I've seen it before a few times:
Check here. (http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/9118/borderchange3zy.jpg)

[linh]

There are 2 other alliance battle maps are : Kanaaki Cliffs and Ancestral Lands. Anyone knows where they are or ever tried them yet ?

[Sacho]

What's the bias on Saltspray about?

Does it allow the other team to capture the dragon before your team gets there? Even if it's one or two seconds, if your team rushes into the dragon stand, it will be just a question of who kills who on the cap.

Could someone explain what the bias on Saltspray is about?

[Sereng Amaranth]

Ok, so if I concede to Saltspray being biased toward Kurzick, then why does the battle stay at Etnaran much longer than at Granz?

I played Alliance Battles all day today. My record? 22-4. I'd say 20 were at Etnaran. If it is biased toward Luxon, why is it there all the time?

And as Sacho said, a few seconds does not a bias make.

[Arcador]

There are a lot more towns on the map near the border that probably can be taken over, thus I am hoping for more than 5 maps...maybe like 9? Since we now only move the line from the bottom, but surelly it will be able to move from the middle and the upper part.

[Viscount]

Hmm, after reading the post from Sereng I can't help but think, what if part of the bias is number of wins it takes to move the line?

[beleg curudin]

I wish they would add outposts that can be reached, or at least a marker showing where these places are located, the best thing I got thus far is having a pve character enter the places and have a quest so when I hit M i see a green starburst in the location of the battle point.

[Minus Sign]

EDIT: there is a visual distortion factor to Saltspray's map when you press "U". Because it is slanted instead of a perfect Horizantal/Vertical aspect it appears to be a slightly longer distance to the roost than it actually is. This is a trick of the eye when dealing with certain color patterns.

Still, this is no excuse for Luxon teams to give Kurzicks the most valuable point at the start of almost every match.
"You're just complaining because you lose all the time."Taking and HOLDING the roost is a key to victory in Saltspray. the better able your team and allies can accomplish this feat, the more easily assued you will win.

The reason why Luxons are losing the Saltspray map on a regular basis is because they are giving the dragon to the Kurzicks. Center teams make a run for the left side rez at the start of the game, almost every darn time, giving the Kurzicks strong field position which has to be retaken. Retaking the center point is considerably more difficult than holding onto it, and bypassing it for caps is time consuming even with a full string of 33% run buffs. Striking at control points from center requires considerably less time, making it easier for players to take both rez shrines, hold them until a 12 man onslaught pushes them out...to a very short retreat at their center point again.

FYI: I've never had a problem meeting the Kurzicks at the Dragon or either rez. In fact, my character is often (run buffed or not) there slightly before them.

What I have had problems with is getting the rest of my PuG to follow me there. If people turned right instead of turning left at the zone out tele then they would get to the hatching a lot sooner.

Also, on those rare occasions when someone on Luxon side does make a push for the center control point it is often a cap group. High front end spike with speed buffs loses to strong defense with high attack every time. People should know this by now, yet they still insist on charging a hold group with paper shields.

Cap groups get killed on Saltspray. What is a good buildrun in Etharan is merely useful in a few situations to a good allied group of balanced and hold teams here.

Saltspray, Luxon kicks its own @$! before the match ever really starts. If three cap groups hit "Enter mission" at the same time, they've lost the match even sooner.

Cap groups can win on Etharan. It doesn't make it a prety win, or a guaranteed win, but it can win. On Saltspray the "cap cap cap" mentality of the Luxons meets with defeat more often than not, as noticed by our regular retreat into our own turf.

The reason behind this? Kurzick strategy has adapted to supply different build styles. They play more diverse characters and support their teams. Too many Luxons grab 4 people and hit enter.

@Luxons in general: you want to cap. Well, enjoy Etharan and stop complaining. Etharan gives your build certain advantages.

Saltspray? You have to fight players. Cap teams can't do this well; built to exploit NPC stupidity. They get owned. Hold teams can fight PvP so Kurzicks play them. Why don't more of us?

@Anet: I do wish you would un-nerf that farming run so people would get out of these maps if they want easy faction. The quality of Luxon players has suffered tremendously over the last month, and I place blame on the quantity of players running in without a thought beyond capping. Fortunately for Luxons, the Kurzicks suffer the same problem...to a smaller extent.

[JoDiamonds]

While I agree that there aren't enough Luxons playing Hold groups at Saltspray, I believe that the rez shrines are far more valuable than the roost.

It's a weird sort of call, because the rez shrines and the roost directly affect getting each other. But the rez shrines hold the power to getting back to the roost *or* the sidelines quickly.

There's been a few times I've managed to persuade the whole team to run 6-0-6 instead of 4-4-4, and I haven't lost one of those matches (but I've only been able to convince people to do that about five times). I'm not saying this is a silver bullet strategy that obviously wins all the time (many of those matches ended up being quite close), but I think if you can hold both rez shrines for the first five minutes of the game you have an excellent chance of winning the whole match.

[Minus Sign]

I would never say the rez shrines aren't important to Saltspray. But they aren't centers job. The three most important areas on the map are the two rez shrines and the roost. Just giving any of these to the other side, especially the roost as described previously, is asking them to kick the crud out of you.

There are two other teams in this game. You've got to trust them at least a little to do their jobs...so they can trust you to do yours.

The 6-0-6 strat you describe does work; but I've only found it useful in situations where I have 2 guild groups on TS/vent that loaded together. Then its 7v8 with you buffed and them not, you with a rez and them with only the dragon. A 12 man assault will push one group out, but the second this si seen, the 6 flankers can easily move to hit the roost and follow up by hammering the Kurzicks at the beleagured rez; fresh reinforcemnts that have just taken their only advantage away.

But it requires too much precision for most AB players. I don't endorse it.

[Bale_Shadowscar]

There are 5 maps, which are as follows:

Deep Kurzick: Ancestral Lands

Shallow Kurzick: Grenz Frontier

Middle ground: Saltspray Beach

Shallow Luxon: Etnaran Keys

Deep Luxon: Kanaaki Cliffs

[Xx Invictus xX]

While I agree that there aren't enough Luxons playing Hold groups at Saltspray, I believe that the rez shrines are far more valuable than the roost.



I avoid the dragon shrine dragon dies easily. And controlling the rez points is way more valuable. Not having to spawn a mile away from the action.

So i agree with Jo and minus on this. If you hold the 2 rez shrines u can see all the capt points, basically to see what you need to cap then back to rez shrines once capped..

[BrutusV]

Grenz happens almost everyday now - but to find out whether maps needs fixing is: do Luxons win at Grenz? I haven't. Tried everything, including capping and holding rez and rez orb shrines at Grenz for maybe 9-10 minutes. If that doesn't tip the game in my favor I don't know what will.

[audioaxes]

during fpe it seemed like the Kurzicks were winning the most since it was on etnaran alot. I had factions when it came out and I didnt see it on Grenz. It was Etnaran or Saltspray for me. And then the following weeks the Kurzicks seemed to consistantly beat the Luxons as the map was ALWAYS on Etnaran and Saltspray, for a period the Kurzicks were keeping the map on Etnaran more than Saltspray. I think recently a bunch of noobs bandwagoned to Kurzick side which has let the Luxons push the battle to Grenz. But in the last 2 days ive played ive seen alot of Etnaran and Saltspray again.

[Minus Sign]

I have a 1/2 win ratio in Grenz when I PuG (numbers increase with guild, almost 4/1 but now quite). I've been playing balanced teams there, like the Dual smite I was introduced to in this forum or old school nuke/spiker, tank, monk, shutdown character.

Back to Saltspray: "The rezes are more important since you can get back into the fight more quickly".

Now why is that? Think about your own strategy for a moment, and the concequences required for it to be accurate.

Holding one rez or another while ignoring the dragon roost and hold team strategies gets you "back in the fight" most often because the Kurzicks are beating a path out of the roost and into your rez. The fight is on your doorstep because they hold superior field position.

Also, take another look at Saltspray. if the fight is at the OTHER rez point, a cap situation where you have them kicked back on their heels, then you have just been spawned well AWAY from the battle, far in the rear and out of action until your character can run back (avoiding the roost; its under Kurzick control, remember?) before you can start helping again. Else, you rez while their cap teams have flanked you and have to give up your offensive to retake you old control points, lest the Kurzick's shift the battle from a north to south fight and them holding 4 points of seven into a soutth/north fight with them--again--holdign 4 points in seven.

Most games where Luxon ignores the roost at the start, the Kurzick's take an early lead and maintain it for most of the game if not all. Games where Luxon completely ignores the roost usually end with Kurzick's maintaining most if not all control points for a very long time, making the outcome extremely one-sided.

Fortunately for Luxon, I've been seeing a steady increase in the number and qualtity of balanced and hold teams over the course of the last several days during my playtime. Fewer people are holding to the mad-cap mentality that has kept them bouncing between two maps and more people are starting to see grenz more often as strong balanced teams start getting calls, and Dula smite overruns touch rangers in AB. I've also seen many holds teams with Charge warriors taking center at the start of the match in Saltspray. 2 good trends that I feel are the primary reason I see grenz more often than before.

most important of all: people are starting to understand that one strategy does not work for every map. makes these old eyes twinkle to see ;)

[Racthoh]

Yes. Only way.

You can always get a guest invite to a guild that is allied to either side and go from there as well. :)

[twicky_kid]

I had a 80% win on Grentz. This map is heavily against the kurzick. This map has 1 res shrine in the center. You need to split in 4-4-4 for this map to work well.

At the start you need to converge on the res shrine. You MUST take the res shrine to win this. After you take split.

Team 1 needs to run around and cap the other points.

Team 2 needs to defend the res shrine and cap other points when the opportunity comes up. Then right back to the res shrine. Take any of the NPC masters with you to help defend.

Team 3 has a very hard job. They have to body block the center exit at their base. You can stand close enough with 2 people side by side to block the exit without getting nailed by the body guard.

Dual smite is best for Team 3. The monks can body block the exit while smiting off each other. The wars can pick off people that use the left and right teleporters.

The biggest disadvantage on this map is once the kurzicks are in this situation is very hard to come back from. The attack shrine is right in front of their base giving you a constant boost as you hold them in the base.

[JoDiamonds]

Grentz clearly favors Kurzick, as designed. It is essentially a mirror map to Etnaran, which clearly favors Luxons.

Minus Sign: I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, regarding roost vs. rez.

For what it's worth, it seems implied that people who argue that the rez shrines are more important than the roost are also arguing in favor of ignoring the roost. That's putting words in other people's mouths; that would be like me saying that taking the roost is pointless if you ignore the rez shrines afterwards.

For instance, "Holding one rez or another while ignoring the dragon roost...". Why even talk about that? Anyone ignoring any capture point is being silly.

Almost everyone has agreed that the three most important capture points on Saltspray are the rez shrines and the Roost. It's kind of a pointless to assume that people are avoiding the roost, because no one has said they are doing that (especially for the entire battle, just because it's Kurzick-held). You don't avoid things held by the enemy, or you'd never get anything after the first rush!

My primary argument for saying the rez shrines are more valuable is because having them makes it easier to get all other shrines (including the roost). In particular, I advocate taking the rez shrines first with force, and then taking the roost from both sides. This provides overwhelming force first at the rez shrine battles, and then at the roost.

Strategically speaking, I think you are screwed if you instead send overwhelming force to the roost and then try to get the rez shrines. You can't reasonably send 12-men to the roost (or you will end up way behind early on and probably never recover, especially with the combat bonuses the other team will get). If you instead do something like 3-6-3, both of your 3's are likely to get killed without inflicting serious damage. That doesn't leave a good setup for moving onwards, even if you beat a group of 4 in the center relatively easily.

If the intent is instead, "The people who win at the roost are more likely to win the game", well, that is sort of true, but only because the winner there was obviously better (if only in a metagame sense) than the people they beat, so it shows that one side is slightly favored. But the same is true at the rez shrines as well.

As people have noted, Luxons have been winning more recently and spending more time at Grentz (though hardly a reversal of all the time spent at Etnaran). Perhaps some Luxons have figured out that holding the three important locations at Saltspray is the key. ;-)

[Voltar]

entaran keys means kurzick have control of the harvest temple, saltspray beach means the luxons have control of the harvest temple. that's the first town to go depending on who's winning. it's pretty much been going back and forth because nobody's bee winning more than the other. saltspray has a kurzick bias and etnaran has a luxon bias.

they recently added a "momentum" mod or script or whatever with the patch on the 13th that makes the winning side's ... um ... winning count for more in pushing the border. each map you get to as you go deeper into enemy territory is supposed to be more biased against you (defenders have an easier time) which makes sense.

i guess you can take over anything that isn't a mission town or a capital (i'd expect the 15k armor towns as well). count what's leftover i guess and that's probably how many maps there are...i can think of 3 luxon ones at the moment (i'm at work)...seafarer's, breaker and that one up in the hills that nobody goes to.

[TheGuildWarsPenguin]

i guess you can take over anything that isn't a mission town or a capital (i'd expect the 15k armor towns as well). count what's leftover i guess and that's probably how many maps there are...i can think of 3 luxon ones at the moment (i'm at work)...seafarer's, breaker and that one up in the hills that nobody goes to.

You mean Bai Paasu Reach. BTW in that OP, It looks like dawn when the Echovald forest is all dark and scary.

[The O Rly Factor]

saltspray beach means the luxons have control of the harvest temple

Saltspray Beach is the neutral map, where nobody controls any over the other sides outposts. The Harvest Temple is at the start of the Jade Sea, making it a Luxon Controlled Territory. When the map is at Etnaran Keys, it means Kurzick has taken the first Luxon town(maybe more) which is Harvest Temple.

Grenz gives control of Durheim Archives.

[Dark Luke]

This page on guildwiki (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Alliance_Faction) lists the order of towns captured.

After Eterean keys, the map even deeper is the north-south Kanaaki Cliffs (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Kanaaki_Cliffs) where the Luxons starts in the center of the map and Kurzicks at the south. Nobody knows how many Jade seas towns are needed to be captured in order to actually move the alliance battle lines to here... But I have the following guesses:
-Bai Paasu Beach (5 towns) if Cavalon and challenge missions are capturable
-Eredon terrace (4 towns) if challenge missions are not capturable

The Kurzick counterpart to Kanaaki Cliffs is the east-west Ancestal Lands (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Ancestral_Lands), with a similiar layout.

And nice avatar Voltar.

[Rofl_Pwnt]

Us Kurzicks are always winning, we just thought it would be fun to let you Luxons have a win for once in a while, we were getting kind of bored at the stupid jade.

Wow..i can see there are some jack@$$es in this forum. I dont understand why we cant be friends. But if you wanna play that way. Shut up you Kurd!ck. Go hug a tree.

[Shuuda]

I like Grenz Frontier, Ive won matches on it (Im luxon) the layout is pretty much the same as Eternan, but it has a stone forest theme, made to give kurzicks an advantage, and the necro and mes shrine were swaped around, thats all. U even notice that there is a bridge in between the monk shrines.

[Saborath Gilgalad]

Luxons usally push to grenz about 3 times a week. And yes the luxons do win there. Couple days ago when we push to grenz, my team completely rolled the kurzicks, and went 6 wins straight against the kurzicks until I left. Examples of matches 501(L)-124(K), 507(L)-201(K), 510(L)-311(K)etc. But with grenz I believe the kurizicks have a bigger advantage on that map, then the luxons have with keys.