GW-Guru - for the users - or the moderators - bumping

[eskerod]

I saw yesterday a guy beeing banned for 2 min early bumping - and its ok - cause its the rules in Guru :D (moderator smiley) :mad:(user smiley)

BUT - are that rule a benefit for the users - or just a rule that keep the mods occupied ??

1 - We all agree that bumping are nessesary to keep the active users get benefit for their activity. And we also agree that bumping too often are not a good idea.

2 - Bumping with exactly 24 hour limit get too many users "banned" - and are very annoying - for both the users - and also the mods (at least i hope they dont like banning people).

3. Argument - just DONT bump before the 24 hours...

4. Having a life - people (like me) want to bump our threads once a day (without having to watch our clock om the second) - and if we have a life - we will not be able to bump on exactly 24 hours - which means that we sometimes have to stay up to be able to bump. Some days its not possible to bump before next morning (or in the evening - depends on when we think its the best time for bumping).
And sometimes the clock does not match - so people try their best to maintain the 24 hours - but fail because of the clock.

5. Solution - make bumping possible with eg. 22 hours limit.

6. Will it change anything ? - Yes - less people will be banned - but there will not be more bumps (slightly more maybe) - because people will bump their treas at the same time as always (when they think its the best time to bump) - and its now possible to go to sleap - instead of waiting 1 hour to be able to bump the thread.

7. It will make everyone happy - people dont get banned as often as now - and moderators will be able to do other importent things - which will be more fun and gives more benefit to Guru - than banning people do.


regards
/eskerod

[Inde]

eskerod,

We get this question a lot so I thought I would respond personally why we have this rule. First off, it is extremely unfair to those users who do abide by the rules for someone to come in and bump an hour early, 2 minutes early, or any amount of time early. If the majority of users can wait... then they can wait.

We have these rules in place to ensure that this forum is fair to all the users. Your items that you sell only stay on the front page of that forum for an hour or 2 at most. To have even one person violating the rule pushes a user who is following the rules off the front page.

As for why not 22 hours? Because the same argument you listed could be made for 22 hours. Why not 21 hours? Why not 20 hours? 24 hours is a pretty standard treatment and fairly easy for a user to look and know when it is up. Making it any more complicated would only mean more people violating those rules.

I know it's harsh but we have tried other methods in the past, they are always... always abused. Having a zero tolerance policy is the best way for us to have equal treatment for all those trying to buy and sell items.

[Earth]

2 minutes seems a bit... over the top, but whatever. I'm not a ventari's mod.

[Wolf2581]

I think people would screw it up even more if the restriction were something other than 24 hours. If after a few bumps it might become an inconvenience to make more (sleeping, working, etc.), then I would recommend either simply waiting to bump or making sure the original post is made early enough to allow for bumping according to one's schedule. There is nothing stating that bumps must be made as close to the 24-hour mark as possible.

As for the bans, whether it is two minutes early or two hours early, it is still a breach of the rules. If making sure one's timezone is set correctly in the User CP is too much trouble, then perhaps using a message board in the first place is a bad idea.

On the other hand, with sufficient expertise in PHP, an administrator could modify the forum code to disallow thread authors' replies before 24 hours have passed. That would sharply reduce the number of bans and lighten the load on the moderators.

[Yang Whirlwind]

I saw yesterday a guy beeing banned for 2 min early bumping - and its ok - cause its the rules in Guru :D (moderator smiley) :mad:(user smiley)
Show me proof please! I am responsible of the Ventari's section along with Messy and Ryker and we usually never ban for that small deviations.

BUT - are that rule a benefit for the users - or just a rule that keep the mods occupied ??
To benefit the majority of users of course!

Having a life - people (like me) want to bump our threads once a day (without having to watch our clock om the second) - and if we have a life - we will not be able to bump on exactly 24 hours - which means that we sometimes have to stay up to be able to bump. Some days its not possible to bump before next morning (or in the evening - depends on when we think its the best time for bumping).
And sometimes the clock does not match - so people try their best to maintain the 24 hours - but fail because of the clock.
I have run countless threads in Buy, Sell and High-end both before and after becoming a moderator, so I know hitting the 24 hour mark can be difficult. No one is going to ban you for a few minutes, but if you are prevented from bumping at the 24 hour mark it will keep until the morning, afternoon or even evening as your schedule allows, it is not the end of the world.

The clock argument I simply do not understand:
Quick Links -> Edit Options -> Date & Time Options
Now your time zone is always adjusted to your local time zone when you log in to bump your thread. Claiming issues with the clock made you bump early is no excuse!

In theory, we could change the bumping rule,- it would not really matter as long the rule applied to everyone and was enforced by the moderators.

But, all the problems would remain unchanged:
"I only bumped my thread 1 hour early and you banned me". This complaint is not in any way reliant on the bump mark being 10, 12, 22 or 24 hours.
Some people learn to respect the rules (even if they do not agree with them), some people will try to bent the rules to suit their purposes and some people will break the rules no matter what they are.

24 hours is by far the easiest rule for everyone to remember as it should correspond to our other daily schedules.

[Arkantos]

5. Solution - make bumping possible with eg. 22 hours limit.

6. Will it change anything ? - Yes - less people will be banned - but there will not be more bumps (slightly more maybe) - because people will bump their treas at the same time as always (when they think its the best time to bump) - and its now possible to go to sleap - instead of waiting 1 hour to be able to bump the thread.

7. It will make everyone happy - people dont get banned as often as now - and moderators will be able to do other importent things - which will be more fun and gives more benefit to Guru - than banning people do.

And then 22 hours will be too unfair and people will want a 20 hour limit. And then 18.

If people can't follow the current 24 hour rule (which is unbelievably easy to follow and always possible to follow), they won't be able to follow a 22 hour rule. If you have a life and you want sleep/do whatever else, then bumping a thread on a gaming forum is going to be the last thing on your mind.

There's nothing wrong with the current rule, the problem lies within the impatient users who cannot wait 24 hours to bump.

Ventari moderators are supposed to moderate ventari. Closing threads and banning users for an early bump is just as important for closing a thread and banning a user for any other reason.

[Darcy]

And sometimes the clock does not match - so people try their best to maintain the 24 hours - but fail because of the clock.


All you need to do is look at the time of your last bump, right there on post. Then look at the time at the bottom of your page. If that one is earlier, don't bump again.

Not difficult at all. The problem usually is not that people can't follow the rules due to time constraints, but that they either don't care about the rules, or didn't bother to read them.

[eskerod]

Show me proof please! I am responsible of the Ventari's section along with Messy and Ryker and we usually never ban for that small deviations.


Proof - sort of - http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10363043
But the guy did make an "deleted bump" the day befor the banning - so it might be because of that, he got banned for the 2 min early bump - but it dont change that the 2 min got him banned..

And all i hear as answer - we make the rules - obey them - or get banned - or dont use our site.

But unfortuanlly we dont have other sites to go to - and thats why i thought that it could be a nice thing - to be more userfriendly here on guru.

And why not give it a chance, and try change the 24 hours to eg. 22 hours - and see what will happen ??
Most people are playing at the same time every day - and will bump when they are online. They will not demand 18, 16 hours bumping - because they will not get up in the middle of the night, or go home from work or school - just to be able to bump their thread.


And the clock - ye - it might be because i have looked on my computer clock sometiomes - and it did not match the time in the thread... My mistake...

But actually the far most easy rule are to make it possible to allow one bump every day (dato based)
- then it will be much more userfriendly
- because everyone can remember if they have bumped their thread today - or yesterday
- it will make the same amounts of bumps
- and less banning i guess...

[Unlucky Slayer]

As long as you are over 24 hours you wont be touched. You dont have to be exactly on the dot.

[Savio]

Proof - sort of - http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10363043
But the guy did make an "deleted bump" the day befor the banning - so it might be because of that, he got banned for the 2 min early bump - but it dont change that the 2 min got him banned..
He was banned for the deleted bump. Some people think they can get around the 24-hour rule by bumping often and then deleting their bumps so it looks like they've only bumped once. The problem is... we mods can see deleted posts.

If you're wondering why he wasn't banned right away, sell mods go through thousands of posts a day. A few slip through.

And why not give it a chance, and try change the 24 hours to eg. 22 hours - and see what will happen ??
At one point we had more relaxed rules. Because of that, sell forums were a mess.

[eskerod]

At one point we had more relaxed rules. Because of that, sell forums were a mess.

Ok - i did not know that - but of course - if people could bump as they wanted - it would be a mess.

But the two suggestions i have, will not give more mess in the sell/buy section - because it will not be possible to make more bumps (the 22 hours rule - will - if people are using exact 22 hours - but they wont).

And the one suggestion with the daily bumt (dato based) - thats a really simpel rule - and are not to be misunderstod by anyone i guess.

- if they think dayli = 24 hours - then its ok
- and if people think its once a day = thats ok too.

It will make everyone more relaxed - we dont have to look at the clock - nor do we have to skip the dayli bump

The only thing we have to keep in mind -> did i bump my thread earlier today ?

If there are argument against that - ill be happy to see them :D

[Yang Whirlwind]

Proof - sort of - http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10363043
But the guy did make an "deleted bump" the day befor the banning - so it might be because of that, he got banned for the 2 min early bump
The deleted bump was what got him banned,- not the 2 min!
- but it dont change that the 2 min got him banned..
Yes it does! A violation does not "expire" with the next bump.

And all i hear as answer - we make the rules - obey them - or get banned - or dont use our site.

But unfortuanlly we dont have other sites to go to - and thats why i thought that it could be a nice thing - to be more userfriendly here on guru.

And why not give it a chance, and try change the 24 hours to eg. 22 hours - and see what will happen ??
Most people are playing at the same time every day - and will bump when they are online. They will not demand 18, 16 hours bumping - because they will not get up in the middle of the night, or go home from work or school - just to be able to bump their thread.
As we have explained on multiple occasions: we tried less strict rules and chaos ensued. We are not going back to that.

But actually the far most easy rule are to make it possible to allow one bump every day (dato based)
- then it will be much more userfriendly
- because everyone can remember if they have bumped their thread today - or yesterday
- it will make the same amounts of bumps
- and less banning i guess...
The moderators clocks are also adjusted to the local time zone in our respective countries. We would have to do countless calculations when moderating to determine if the daily bumps were placed correctly in relation to each users time zone. This is simply not doable and in no way "easy".
It would also allow people to submit their thread just before midnight and then bump it one hour later,- and trust me they would!
I have closed a lot of threads where the user thought the rules allowed a daily bump and had bumped within two hours of submitting it.

If there are argument against that - ill be happy to see them :D
And now you have,- this rule cannot work!

All these suggestions have been considered or actually tried at one point or another and there are valid considerations behind every rule we have in place.

[Stop The Storm]

does say in the rules that upto 10 minutes beforehand is fine, doubt someone would get banned for 2 minutes bump tbh

24 hours is fine too.

only thing that annoys me is the 12 character minimum post thing. it NEEDS to get removed from the entire ventari section, its not hard to do surely. i can understand it being needed elsewhere, but not in ventaris.

[Arkantos]

There is nothing wrong with 24 hours. It's perfectly reasonable and it's easy for both moderators and users to follow. There really is no reason to change it to anything else.

[Yang Whirlwind]

only thing that annoys me is the 12 character minimum post thing. it NEEDS to get removed from the entire ventari section, its not hard to do surely. i can understand it being needed elsewhere, but not in ventaris.
To be honest it's usually not that much of a problem, simply add some ---- to fill it up.
I will however look into the possibility of having the restriction removed in Ventari's.

[Stop The Storm]

There is nothing wrong with 24 hours. It's perfectly reasonable and it's easy for both moderators and users to follow. There really is no reason to change it to anything else.

i take it you never go into the ventari section then lol

To be honest it's usually not that much of a problem, simply add some ---- to fill it up.
I will however look into the possibility of having the restriction removed in Ventari's.

ok cool :), would make it alot tidier if it was removed in there

[Arkantos]

i take it you never go into the ventari section then lol

I do. The rule is reasonable and easy to follow. People just choose to not follow it. Every person who is capable of reading the date is fully capable of following the rule.

[Stop The Storm]

I do. The rule is reasonable and easy to follow. People just choose to not follow it. Every person who is capable of reading the date is fully capable of following the rule.

noones disputing that?

dont really understand where youre coming from.

[Yang Whirlwind]

Stop The Storm:
We have spend a great deal of time in the above posts explaining why the 24 hour rule is the best interval possible.
That it should be the easiest to remember and the most logical to understand.
Exactly what are you arguing here?

[Stop The Storm]

hes going on about how the rule is simple to follow and that its not hard to follow the rules etc etc... ive not disputed that anywhere in this thread.

all that ive said is that its not needed in ventaris, which it isnt.

then he went off about stuff that had no rellevance to what id said.

[Eragon Zarroc]

any tolerence on the rule will lead to people trying to post sooner and sooner, arguing that the time is close enough. It is unfortunate that mods have to be so strict, but is necessary to maintain order.

[Malice Black]

Being a former ventaris mod (and a fairly strict one) changing the bump time would have no impact what so ever. I allowed a 15min deviation from the rule max. Funny thing about most early bumpers is they were still online when their bump was due. Most bans were easily avoidable. Repeat offenders were the most annoying, and suffered for it.

I was 'recruited' when the relaxed rules were in effect, and the place was a quagmire of badness. Stuey and I done a good job of moping it up though ;)

I loved the people who deleted bumps then played stupid afterwards. Good times :D Miss the abusive PMs too, made me chuckle.

[Yang Whirlwind]

hes going on about how the rule is simple to follow and that its not hard to follow the rules etc etc... ive not disputed that anywhere in this thread.

all that ive said is that its not needed in ventaris, which it isnt.

then he went off about stuff that had no rellevance to what id said.
Arkantos was posting in relation to the original topic of the thread (the 24 hour bump rule), not your post about the 12-character rule.

The 12-character rule may not be needed in Ventari's, but neither does it constitute a big inconvenience there.

[Dont Mess Withme]

I missed this thread and *I* was the culprit ;)

The guy was banned because the bump he deleted was early, and on top of it he bumped it again (the 2 m early bump).

There was a bump on:
Mar 24, 2009, 02:11 PM
and then the deleted bump:
Mar 25, 2009, 12:43 PM

that is 90 m early, not 2 minutes, and the reason for the ban.

if we changed the bump rule to 22 hours, then people would bump their threads after 20 hours.

Each post has the time you posted. Check the time of your last post and there should be no reason to bump it too early.

[Snow Bunny]

edit.

so apparently the digital clock in my room is an hour fast

kawksmashed

[REDdelver]

I'd rather see the some of the mod's sayings be addressed.

i.e. I've seen "people are stupid" as tags. And something along lines of you cant escape my thread lock. If i was working at a company and had a "people are stupid" sign in my office, i bet that wouldnt sit well with the companies image.

I dont feel as though its a good idea for mod's to represent their own forum in either negative or brash ways.

[Katsumi]

If you can't take a joke, you should probably disconnect your machine from the internet.

[Theocrat]

and if we have a life - we will not be able to bump on exactly 24 hoursIf someone has a life, then keeping their "I'm selling/buying XYZ in an imaginary digital world" threads at the top of a community discussion forum shouldn't be that high on their priority list, wouldn't you think? It won't hurt these people with lives if they let their thread sink a few pages for a day.

Rules are meant to be followed.

[REDdelver]

...i know i read some posts about being fair.

I'm sure some users who have been banned or had certain threads closed wish they would have the right to say...

If you cant take a joke........

Definite issues there...

[Yang Whirlwind]

REDdelever: We do not limit our moderator's right to creativity concerning their signatures or custom user titles AS LONG as these do not cross certain lines.

"people are stupid" - is something of a catch phrase for the TV character portrayed the same moderator's avatar.
The statement does not suggest that any particular person is more stupid than another. If I do not feel insulted,- neither should you.
"you can troll you can spam but you can't, escape, my thread lock" - all this really says is: you can break the rules, but I will stop you if you do".
What exactly do you think is wrong about that?
You also forgot my signature, which implies that some people are slow learners where rules and guidelines are concerned and lead such unfortunates to knowledge.
A statement I stand by, as I have enough proof to fill a book.

This is not a company. All our moderators lend a hand here in their spare time. As such we do not require: suits, ties, certain hair styles or conform user titles/avatars/signatures.

You seem to suggest that the rules do not apply equally (if you can't take a joke). May I remind you that the moderator's function here is to keep:

threads on topic
insulting or provocative comments out
useless or redundant threads from taking up space
users from breaking the rules to gain trade advantage
etc.


We do not delete comments or threads for personal reasons, we do so to keep things fair, polite and and on topic.

If, by fair you mean you get to decide what you can and cannot do: you are right! As I have said before, this forum is not a democracy!
We do however have sound reason for all our policies, and we are not afraid to discuss our actions if you do not understand these.

As it has been stated many times: if you feel a moderator has treated you unfairly, talk to him. If the two of you can't reach an agreement and you still feel wronged: write to an administrator.

[REDdelver]

If I do not feel insulted,- neither should you.

Thank you for proving my point about there are some issues that could be addressed. Please dont ever tell me how i should feel or not feel. This is not your MOD given right. (or your god given right)

And as far as creativity...its not creative to be brash.

And you can remind me all you want on what a moderator function here is.
The fact still remains, moderators need to carry themselves in a way that reflects what you want users to do on the forums.

For some to say ...iF you cant take a joke, then you should disconnect could be somewhat expected from teenagers, not a mod on a forum. ITs not polite....yet you just said about keeping things polite.

I never said i had a problem with a specific mod. I simply disagree with some tags/signatures. I feel as though these can insult others, i have no problem bringing it up as an issue. I didnt try to call in the National Guard.

[Katsumi]

We have a number of policies here on this forum. Many of them have already been mentioned throughout the rest of this thread and other threads as of late. One of the main precepts here is that if you have a problem, you take it to that person directly. You do not post publicly in a thread. There is no need for the entire community to be brought in on something that is between you and one other person or a few other people. It only serves to call public attention to whatever issue you may have, which is unneeded. This is not a democracy, so it doesn't matter if everyone else agrees with you or not.

If you believe someone is acting in a manner that is unacceptable for whatever reason, please contact them. If you don't feel you're making any progress with that person, or do not want to contact them directly, contact our administrative staff. Inde is the chief admin among that group. I am sure they would be happy to take care of any issues you might have.

But let me reiterate: if you have a problem, do not post it. Violating the guidelines of this forum is no way to ingratiate yourself with the staff or get your problem sorted out quickly. Contact the appropriate people directly.

[Yang Whirlwind]

Thank you for proving my point about there are some issues that could be addressed. Please dont ever tell me how i should feel or not feel. This is not your MOD given right. (or your god given right)
You totally missed my point. What I meant was: "people are stupid" applies equally to me as to you. Since I do not feel slighted,- there should be no reason why you should.
If you do feel slighted that is your right,- just don't expect us to take that seriously.

And as far as creativity...its not creative to be brash.
Please do not assume it is your right to define creativity!

I never said i had a problem with a specific mod. I simply disagree with some tags/signatures. I feel as though these can insult others, i have no problem bringing it up as an issue. I didnt try to call in the National Guard.
Thus I have addressed it as an issue of concern and explained why the examples you brought up do not seem insulting to me. I didn't try to order a full nuclear strike.

[Earth]

If you think Inde accepts anything we write or put in our signatures/user titles, you'd be wrong.

I have already been censored once because of complaints about my signature.

[Snow Bunny]

Fine REDelver, be picky.

You shouldn't feel offended. In fact, you shouldn't demonstrate such an infantile mentality towards this whole issue.

It's unnatural to be offended by the general statement, "People Are Stupid". If you were so secure in your knowledge of your own intelligence, then you wouldn't care.

Such nitpicks are retarded. And please pc police, censure me for my use of retarded!

[Inde]

REDdelver, if you feel that a moderator's sig or title is crossing a line of decency please bring that to my attention. I have indeed asked mods and forum users many times to change their signatures and things of that nature.

Also, you misunderstand the point of what I recruit moderators to do I believe. While a certain amount of decency and common sense is required, we are gamers. We are not a business. We are not a professional institution of any kind. To attempt to create one or give the appearance of one would only alienate us from the players. Since we are players ourselves you will find a wide variety of professions, ages, backgrounds and personalities amongst the moderators. I don't expect them to behave all the time! Why? Because we are all here to help each other, both the community and the moderators. We are here to mingle and talk about Guild Wars. We are here to sometimes egg each other on, have fun, laugh at ourselves, encourage competition and become a community that is familiar with one another. It's a difficult line to manage, I would never come to this forum every day if I couldn't vent, laugh, smirk or use a bit of sarcasm every now and then because this isn't a job. This is our playtime. And I fully encourage and expect the users to, within the realm of common sense and decency, to do the same!

[Cuilan]

Make double posts within x time merge with the post before and not raise the thread to the top. I know it's default like that on other forum software. I'm sure both moderators and members would benefit from that. Sorry if it was mentioned before.

[REDdelver]

Fine REDelver, be picky.

You shouldn't feel offended. In fact, you shouldn't demonstrate such an infantile mentality towards this whole issue.

It's unnatural to be offended by the general statement, "People Are Stupid". If you were so secure in your knowledge of your own intelligence, then you wouldn't care.

Such nitpicks are retarded. And please pc police, censure me for my use of retarded!

LOLZ
I'll tell you same, Please dont tell me what i should feel and shouldnt feel. Last time I checked, people who arent secure with their intelligence don't speak up and say whats on their mind. I simply said something that was on my mind. Taking things way beyond left field, doesnt mean you hit a homerun.

The more I see, The more I Learn, The more I learn, The more I pass along, The more I pass along, The more I infect. An infectious smile can breathe life into a million faces. Seeing beyond the breath...is living.

No worries, this is my final post.

[Sierraa]

And all i hear as answer - we make the rules - obey them - or get banned - or dont use our site.

But unfortuanlly we dont have other sites to go to - and thats why i thought that it could be a nice thing - to be more userfriendly here on guru.

When you create an account on guru you're asked to read the terms of service, when you click the "Yes I agree" button, you're agreeing to obey the rules or get banned. If you don't agree, you don't get to use the site. Simple, no?

http://www.guildwars.com/community/fansites/

(I didn't see this addressed really, but if I missed it I'll delete this. :P)

[Avarre]

I'd rather see the some of the mod's sayings be addressed.

i.e. I've seen "people are stupid" as tags. And something along lines of you cant escape my thread lock. If i was working at a company and had a "people are stupid" sign in my office, i bet that wouldnt sit well with the companies image.

I dont feel as though its a good idea for mod's to represent their own forum in either negative or brash ways.I actually agree, because in almost every case I've seen these:

A) The mod in question has a highly condescending attitude towards the users, matching the title.
B) The mod is not a good enough player to warrant that.

Fight the power, RED!

[Yang Whirlwind]

The moderator's attitude toward users can alway be addressed as an issue. Not as an overall discussion, but on a case to case basis.
As I have said time and again: If you feel wronged by a moderator, send us a PM with the particulars of your complaint and we will look into it! Thoroughly and without bias.

Whether the moderator is a good player or not does not warrant consideration,- ever! What a silly argument! :p

[Arkantos]

I'd rather see the some of the mod's sayings be addressed.

i.e. I've seen "people are stupid" as tags. And something along lines of you cant escape my thread lock. If i was working at a company and had a "people are stupid" sign in my office, i bet that wouldnt sit well with the companies image.

I dont feel as though its a good idea for mod's to represent their own forum in either negative or brash ways.

You shouldn't take things so seriously. In my opinion, saying people in general are stupid isn't offensive. It isn't offensive to any of the moderators. It isn't offensive to most of the users, either. A tag saying "You are stupid" or "(name) is stupid" is a totally different matter. As for my signature, again, you shouldn't take it so seriously. It's a joke I made with Fenix, from song lyrics. Listen to the chorus of escape by enrique iglesias. It's not meant to be offensive, I don't live by it. It's just a joke.

As for the sign in an office, sure, it wouldn't sit well. But this isn't an office. This is a gaming forum. While moderators should act in a professional manner, we aren't working for a multi million dollar business. We're volunteering on a gaming forum. As Inde said, if we (not we as in the moderators, we as in the community) couldn't occasionally egg each other on, have fun, laugh at ourselves, encourage competition and become a community that is familiar with one another, the forums would be very dull, and I'm sure many of the moderators would have left.

So please, keep in mind that we are not business men at a professional business, we're volunteers on a gaming forum trying to have fun.