Decline in Quality of Guru Posts and Attitudes

[Ariena Najea]

Please read the entirety of this post before jumping to any conclusions over the title.

I've been a member of this forum since July 2006, as is seen in my mini profile off to the left. Back then this forum seemed very different in comparison to how it is today. There was a lot more optimism for the future of the game, something that was not as obvious when Nightfall was released, and was non-existent when Eye of the North was released. I'm not suggesting that no one was excited for these releases, simply that the number of these excited people has dropped severely in the past couple years.

The title of my thread can be misleading, but I'm sure that at the base level many older and newer members alike will agree with me when I say that many posts as of late are devoid of any useful content pertaining to the thread whatsoever. I've noticed an increase in the number of gratuitous /(un)signed posts in Sardelac that contribute nothing to the thread, and seem to be present solely for increasing one's post count, making personal attacks at other posters, or trolling with a lolcat. Posts attempting to solve problems in the Questions and Answers forum have been met with useless posts with no evidence of research and sources, as well as more of the same post count bumps. The list goes on.

Take a look at the thread here (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10320246) (thread referenced while HawkofStorms has the final post, #11) for a moment and note the both useful and pertinent information posted by several users about testing methods, and further explaining how both the energy pools and regenerations work. Then note the posts, excluding the obvious troll, that contain a user's opinion on some related topic rather than a detailed analysis.

Here (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10318393) is another thread reference. This is an interesting discussion topic, very relevant to a large number of Guru members who had such experiences when first playing Guild Wars. Unlike in the previous example for the Q&A forum, the posts don't need research or sources, but need depth. This is a discussion topic, not intended to be a bad joke dumping ground as a couple posts on the first page would indicate. Trolls are annoying, but posters simply trying to wittily flame the thread opener are ridiculous.

My last reference is here (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10320180). The thread creator puts out three separate questions about choosing a new class, and the responses vary. Most of the posts are alright, scratching the surface of at least one of the question. Others give quick and very general responses which are too vague to clearly answer any of the questions at all, making the post useless. My post answers two of the three questions and cites examples of different skill combinations to support my suggestions. My post is a little overkill perhaps, but I think somewhere between the other good posts and my own is a good standard for posts of this type.

My main point is that the standard of forum posts has plummeted, and if Guru is going to maintain its status as a reputable community, things need to change. I've always liked Guru, and never much went to any of the other popular forums such as GWOnline unless something over there was referenced in a post here on Guru. I've recently taken a look around and noticed a few points of interest:

Half the community doesn't flame Regina when she makes an announcement or answers questions
Most posts are articulate and relevent to the topic
People are nicer, I see fewer flames in general and very few pointless trolls


Let's work to make Guru a better community for all of us.

[Snow Bunny]

Guild Wars was a great game in 2006. It's really not in 2008.

Posters will respond accordingly.

[glacialphoenix]

People get jaded with experience, and more inclined to yell at everything and everyone.

That's what's happening in the game, so of course it translates here.

Can you really expect anything else? =\

[Martin Alvito]

+1

Had to be said.

More seriously - the lack of substantive posts reflects the generally unimaginative player community. This lack of imagination stems from the fact that inventiveness and creativity are no longer consistently rewarded in the PvE or PvP communities. The PvP community as a rule prizes skill at clicking things and pressing keys over developing new ideas, Observer mode limits the benefits to be reaped from innovation, and stale metas have encouraged learning to play specific bars exceptionally well rather than becoming a well-rounded player.

Similarly, the PvE community lacks new content, meaning that there is a comparative dearth of places to innovate in order to gain advantage and in-game wealth.

Upshot: the community is self-selecting, and the creative players by and large selected out in favor of learning new games with new challenges.

[Lord Zion]

Ive been here since 2005 and yeah i totally agree with the Ariena.

Yesterday i posted a thread suggesting something to improve the game (which btw Ariena had posted some nice words there) and ppl went there just to say i wanna get attention... what? yes thats unbelievable.

I used a situation that happened to me involving little amount of gold and a scammer, and even after i repeat myself over 3 times that i was not suggesting that because i lost money, but to improve the game, i got like 3-5 ppl coming there and saying: "suck it up, it was your fault you lost the gold".

People either dont think anymore before post or dont know how to read and understand a text.

[Jumping Is Uselss]

Guild Wars was a great game in 2006. It's really not in 2008.

Posters will respond accordingly.


QFT

nothing in GW is exciting anymore. Most of the topics worth mentioning have already been said. And most topics get repeated every week, which some people find annoying.

[hurric]

i think it's partly because of average age of some posters.

[DarkNecrid]

Most people get tired of seeing the same topics and answering the same questions. Guru has always ALWAYS ALWAYS been harsher than other fansites and more in your face and that will probably never change because that is what Guru is. When big stuff happens it simmers down (the skill update topic was pretty good the one that changed elites), and will simmer down this month too I'm sure. Not everyone thoroughly enjoys answering the same questions and discussing the same stuff 5000000000x times.

[Alastair]

It is a combination of you changing, the other people changing, and new players joining the mix. I have been through a few different video game forums where they evolved (or devolved, hehe) to be something completely different from where they were on day 1. The vets get bitter and the newbs are more annoying by the post. At some point you have to realize that nothing in life is set in stone and that you need to accept the change. The good 'ol days wouldn't be good unless they were in the past. Make the best of what you have right now and don't stress over the state of things. Just be happy that things aren't worse :)

-Alastair

[Lord Zion]

Most people get tired of seeing the same topics and answering the same questions. Guru has always ALWAYS ALWAYS been harsher than other fansites and more in your face and that will probably never change because that is what Guru is. When big stuff happens it simmers down (the skill update topic was pretty good the one that changed elites), and will simmer down this month too I'm sure. Not everyone thoroughly enjoys answering the same questions and discussing the same stuff 5000000000x times.

Im sorry but if people are tired of answering the same questions and discussing the same stuff 5000000000x times, they could:

1. Stop going to that certain thread(s); or
2. Post a link to the other thread where you have answered the questions or discussed the subject.

For me thats not an excuse to act like a jerk.

(DarkNecrid i quoted you, but im not referring to you - the acting like a jerk thing ;) )

[Ariena Najea]

Im sorry but if people are tired of answering the same questions and discussing the same stuff 5000000000x times, they could:

1. Stop going to that certain thread(s); or
2. Post a link to the other thread where you have answered the questions or discussed the subject.

For me thats not an excuse to act like a jerk.

(DarkNecrid i quoted you, but im not referring to you - the acting like a jerk thing ;) )

I see people mentioning those two solutions frequently, and often they're flamed for it. Those two are among the best possible paths taking when dealing with such threads.

My response to those who say Guild Wars is no longer exciting or enjoyable, please change games or take a break. To those who feel this way, hang around Guru, and grief threads... please just move on and find another way to occupy your time.

I'm pleased to see this thread has not yet turned into a flame war, I hope it continues to be a good discussion :)

[Phineas]

I agree with the OP. I would like to see the end of the ridiculous "+1" brigade, and also those posters who believe that their post "wins" or "/closes" the thread after a throw away comment that is usually an insult to the OP in question. Such people add nothing to the content here yet more of them appear to be 'contributing'.

Tougher moderating would be good, but then people would cry out, but if it meant that those people had to go away and construct a considered reply to a thread then I'd be all for it.

[Jae Onasi]

I'll take a shot at this. I have two perspectives: a. A relatively new player, and certainly fairly new to this forum and b. super-moderator over at Lucasforums.com in the KotOR section, where we're experiencing a similar kind of ennui with those games among older players because of how long ago they were released.

From the point of view of a player being relatively new to the game and this forum, it does have a higher number of off-topic/off-color posts than I'm accustomed to on LF, but that could just be part of the culture. I can roll with whatever the community has established as their particular spam to legit post ratio as long as the spam isn't horribly high. I have more important things to do than read idiotic or +1 posts, and when I'm at work on the blackberry, spam wastes a lot of time and bandwidth because of the slow loading times on my phone. I'm fine with seeing legitimate questions, however, even if they appear to be repeats of something that got asked 2 years ago.

Older players also need to be a little patient with us newer players. What's old hat to you is something completely new to me. I'm still discovering something new virtually every time I play. Just be patient with someone who answers newbie questions, and if you don't want to do that, then just don't post. Skip the entire thread if need be. It'll save both you and the OP headaches. As my grandma used to say, 'If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it.'

However, if the spamming/off-topic problem has increased, it means that the staff may have to step in more to get it calmed back down. I don't know if it has or not because I don't have any way to compare to what was going on 2 years ago. What I have learned (sometimes the hard way) that it's much easier to put out one small spark than it is to deal with a thread that's exploded into an all-out flame or spam war. It's a lot harder to deal with a culture of spamming if the spamming has gotten way out of hand. It also helps considerably if members just report the posts by clicking on the little red triangle below your avatar instead of replying to rude or off-topic posts, as well. You'll save the staff time by not making them have to delete your post pointing out how someone else broke the rules as well as the offending post.

From the point of view as an s-mod on a forum of an older game, there is going to be a certain level of boredom crop up in a 3 year old game. People who were active when the game first came out may move on to other, newer games--that's OK. We expect some turnover and people deciding to play other games. I don't still play Asteroids on Atari, for instance. We are still seeing an influx of players who are picking up the KotOR games for the first time, however. They are generally young, and they generally ask the same things I did about the game 3 years ago. I can either roll my eyes about it and focus on some of the negative things, or I can share their enthusiasm and appreciation for games I enjoy so much and help them out. I choose the latter, and I moderate with that philosophy in mind, i.e. the posts that are useless or flamey get deleted immediately. The staff will have to make decisions on how they want to handle that here, however. This is a different game, different forum, different culture than the one I'm working at and I'm not trying to tell them what to do. I will suggest having an FAQ sticky in the different forums, much like the Index of Ideas sticky in Sardelac. That may help with some of the newbie questions, too.

[Clone]

I think another issue is that forums are the given conduit to communication with Anet. People see the forums as the one place to try to get out their opinion. Often this follows the old addage of, "the squeaky wheel gets the grease," and complaints become commonplace. Personally, I think it is unwise for Anet to take so much stock in forums for this reason. People who are having fun in the game the way things are generally don't have much to complain about.

However, once a significant change occurs, the fallout then can be directed not only at Anet, but at the other forum members. I'll run the risk of sparking an Ursan debate and use it as an example. People who enjoyed the game as it was began to see the people who called for its removal in an adversarial and antagonistic light. It is a combination of a newfound need to be "more squeaky" to get Anet's attention in hopes to return to a comfortable status quo, as well as attempt to quell the voices they see adversly affecting them. Descenting voices can be seen not just random people on the internet. They are people trying to ruin the games you own.

[Savio]

I've noticed an increase in the number of gratuitous /(un)signed posts in Sardelac that contribute nothing to the thread, and seem to be present solely for increasing one's post count, making personal attacks at other posters, or trolling with a lolcat. Posts attempting to solve problems in the Questions and Answers forum have been met with useless posts with no evidence of research and sources, as well as more of the same post count bumps. The list goes on.
Those issues were around when I first became a moderator.

My main point is that the standard of forum posts has plummeted, and if Guru is going to maintain its status as a reputable community, things need to change.
Aside from a few more +1 posts than usual, Guru has been mostly the same. We are a bit more relaxed than the other forums; it's how we do things. Considering the diverse population of Guru (sellers, farmers, PvErs, PvPers, new players, regulars, hardcore, casual, etc.) I am slightly surprised it isn't just a big ball of hate.

We don't have to be extremely polite or always on-topic in discussions; sometimes they get heated, or sometimes discussion ends up somewhere else.


Half the community doesn't flame Regina when she makes an announcement or answers questions
Most posts are articulate and relevent to the topic
People are nicer, I see fewer flames in general and very few pointless trolls

They aren't as diverse or as populated as Guru.

[joshuarodger]

in all honesty, i really enjoy the fact that people throw hate at other posters. i don't think it should be done to newer players, but i also believe that new members to guru should look at and, more importantly, read the stickies in each sub-forum. it does get very tiresome to answer "help with my build" topics each and every day. it gets even more tiresome to actually help someone with their build and hear "but that's my best skill and i'm not getting rid of it" or something along those lines.

i have been a member here a relatively short time and have really enjoyed the debate and heat that certain topics create. i asked quite a few noob questions when i first joined and took some ribbing for it, but i have a pretty thick skin most of the time so it just kind of rolled off my back. i realize that some people are a little more sensitive than i am and in that case should probably find a different forum in which to post. i also find many of the posts here extremely funny even if they are completely off topic and even a little mean. if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

i also blame Anet for a lot of the attitudes of the guru posters. not necessarily regina or anyone in particular, but i think their community relations is poor. not the people working in the CR department, but their set-up. forums are a good way to gauge to monitor how your clientele views your product, but there are other methods. polls on the log-in screen, periodic publications (weekly, monthly, quarterly) discussing in-game changes or ideas and upcoming events or new games, maybe even a bigger staff. i mean regina is only one person and i can imagine it's hard to be inundated with "listen to my idea, because it's the best" day-in and day-out. even one more person could alleviate a lot of that.

anyway, i guess really what it boils down to is, guru is a great forum as long as you don't expect sunshine and roses from everyone. this isn't directed at OP, per se, but basically, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

[Ariena Najea]

anyway, i guess really what it boils down to is, guru is a great forum as long as you don't expect sunshine and roses from everyone. this isn't directed at OP, per se, but basically, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.

If everyone agreed all of the time and never took a firm stance, then we would never have good meaningful discussion. I'm all for a heated debate, with all sides throwing in their numbers and opinions even if the goal isn't to come to a common consensus. What I'm saying is that Guru can be a bloodbath and still be a great forum, but in its current state the discussion is more what I would expect from 4chan. I'm tired of the +1 mentality is all.

As for your last comment, I feel that if someone can't post for the good of the community (basically meaningful posts that positively contribute) they should get off of the forum. Now for a potentially horrible analogy. If a bunch of drunks storm a police station, the police maintain order instead of giving up because there is a standard of behavior.

[joshuarodger]

haha, your analogy made me laugh. i know you didn't actually mean to compare forum posts to complete, societal anarchy.

i agree that +1's get to be annoying sometimes but the forum titles, which is what the +1's are for, peak the interest of the average poster and get more people looking at more threads, which in turn, leads to more information, advice and, of course, flaming. without the forum titles, i'm sure there would be a tremendous decrease in the random, off-topic posts in otherwise informative threads. but those +1's, sometimes, do contain helpful info to the original poster.

there are also times when i think someone needs to be knocked down a notch or two and flames are called for. this is an anonymous format, though, so really all that does is lead to a flame war, since someone can be as tough as they want when all they are doing is typing. that's when it gets to be funny to me though. i would bet that 90% of the people from this forum, if faced with the same argument on the street would end up apologizing to each other and going about their business, but where's the fun in that?

"i'm typing and i'm tough."

[Snow Bunny]

Newer players have immense resources at their hands that older players did not in the outset of the game. Countless farming threads, guides on smashing through missions, price checks, hero setups, the Wiki, etc.


There's so much information available; the only thing there is to do on Guru these days is a. call someone bad b. make a good troll thread in attempts to emasculate people who take concept classes seriously c. +1 some epic rant thread d. fruitlessly try and help some poor newer player before the idiot parade arrives and gives him bad advice, or e. go over to OTA and make pointless +0 posts about absolutely RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOall.



New players should use "Search" and the Wiki; there's at this stage really no necessity for any serious discussion at a new-player level of the game.

[Cartello]

I think it's a multitude of things.
The veterans get better and become more cynical, rude and self important. (Yes, myself included)
The newbies have it all laid out for them and become lazy. With only second hand knowledge in stock and a lot of crap leaking from all sorces, how will they ever know what to believe or how to perform better?

Guild Wiki = Good. - GW is a large game. Every person here has used wiki and is not ashamed to admit it. PvX wiki however..
I find it amusing. It only exsists to walk players through the game. A skill bar of 8 is small. So laying it out on a plate for new players makes thema consistant empty vessel. the worst part is, it's the vet's own fault for sharing build for simplistic post count or rep in a forum.
Ultimatly, the sorce of this complaining is going ot be from the older players, but if we look at it deeply, it's the older players own fault. they should have kept the knowledge to themself, only sharing it with guildies, not posting it on a forum where 1 million+ people will view it. Was the respect worth it? No people know YOU created the 'Sabway' team for example? - No.
You're the one getting stung by it.

So, with all this second hand knowledge and newbies who have had their hands held through it ALL (Texmods are annoying too!), this will reflect is most posts that come through, and they wont ever realise they're doing it!
I think this need to be a lesson well learned for Guild Wars 2. To be honest though.. we all know it WILL happen again. History truely does repeat itself.

[Katsumi]

They aren't as diverse or as populated as Guru.

Completely agreed.

It's a problem of volume mostly. When I read here, I'm sometimes reminded of the WoW forums (yes, I went there). The more the population of a game grows, the more people find fansites and forums. In any given population, there's always a ratio of normal, well-adjusted people compared to the malcontents or the down-right idiotic. The more the population grows, the greater the percentage of the undesirable people who aren't here to help or contribute.

Generally, the greater number of the population aren't here to make trouble. They're here because they like this game and want to be a part of the community associated with it.

But there are some who aren't. And remember, the trolls/fanboys/troublemakers are always the loudest.

[Numa Pompilius]

Well, you can check my join date.

Guildwarsguru has been horribly negative since inception; in the first year there was a lot of complaining from the hardcore PvP community which had migrated from Diablo2 and expected Guild Wars to be Diablo3. They really hated that they were forced to play PvE to unlock skills & gear for PvP, and took every opportunity to vent their frustration.

I don't really see that gwguru on average got any more or less civil or informative; the main difference is that there are fewer beginners now, and the complete, 110%, focus on farming.
That there's fewer beginners is of course a result of the game now being three years old, and the myopic focus on farming is annoying but seems hard to do anything about - I get the impression many don't even realize the game can be played any other way than through farming.

[glacialphoenix]

Guildwarsguru has been horribly negative since inception; in the first year there was a lot of complaining from the hardcore PvP community which had migrated from Diablo2 and expected Guild Wars to be Diablo3. They really hated that they were forced to play PvE to unlock skills & gear for PvP, and took every opportunity to vent their frustration.

I haven't been in the game as long as you have since I joined it only after Factions came out, but I think that particular situation is inevitable. The moment you have a community that likes a particular game (Diablo II) migrating to a new game (GW), there's bound to be a fair few people who aren't happy with the new system. It's kind of like how every new update, someone's going to be unhappy, and someone's going to be gleeful over it.
When GW2 comes out, the same thing will probably happen.

And yes, there are fewer beginners now, and those who are generally post (or so I've noticed) with threads that actually state they are a new player.

Also, Wiki does exist, and it is helpful, but there are also those who would like to see and gather the opinions of more players, especially if they are unfamiliar with the class and experimenting with their builds. The thing is, it's very easy to perceive someone as noob when you are far more experienced with the class than they are. I once got irritated at a monk for constantly Rebirthing midbattle - until I realised that he'd just started monking and honestly didn't know any better. If I hadn't known that he'd just started, I probably would've classified him as 'noob'.

I wouldn't be surprised if, as I said, the attitude carries over to GWGuru.

[Vilaptca]

I think it's a multitude of things.
The veterans get better and become more cynical, rude and self important. (Yes, myself included)
The newbies have it all laid out for them and become lazy. With only second hand knowledge in stock and a lot of crap leaking from all sorces, how will they ever know what to believe or how to perform better?

QFT

I also think it has to do with boredom. From my perspective, I come here everyday, because it became a habit. When things were still new and exciting and you came here to buy/sell, to read about new/upcoming updates, to speculate about the future of GW, now we've really got nothing to do.

Most of you can't see what I see, but there used to be a time when deleted spam threads in Riverside would be on page 4 within hours. I was actually surprised the other day when almost a whole day went by with that deleted spam thread still on page 1. That tells me that most of us have nothing new to discuss. And the very few things we do have are all consolidated into larger threads.

It seems that many new threads are locked everyday. If a thread doesn't have an actual point or nothing new to add, all of the bored people who still check this forum regularly out of habit, will find that thread and turn it into garbage.

The forum is just reflecting the state of the game right now. A lot of bored people with nothing new to do who still log on out of habit. When GW2 comes around there will be more discussion and you won't really notice the lack of quality in other posts because you'll be participating in real discussion about some new exciting things in GW2.

[wanmoke]

I take a look at threads like this (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10320792) and it makes me cringe. Notice how in less than 12 hours it's already grown to seven pages(at the time I'm writing this), and that most of the responses are the same. People seem to want in on the drama even though the same stuff has been said over and over again.

People are drawn to drama it seems, and since there's nothing new in the game to discuss, people make threads to get attention. They refuse to acknowledge it and move on to a new game.

[Ariena Najea]

I take a look at threads like this (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10320792) and it makes me cringe. Notice how in less than 12 hours it's already grown to seven pages(at the time I'm writing this), and that most of the responses are the same. People seem to want in on the drama even though the same stuff has been said over and over again.

People are drawn to drama it seems, and since there's nothing new in the game to discuss, people make threads to get attention. They refuse to acknowledge it and move on to a new game.

I took a look at the same thread, and was simply sickened by it. Not only the complete lack of morals or decency in most of the posters there, but by the attitude by which the thread was approached. While I strongly disagree with the OP's position, he has a good point that should be addressed. To what degree does a service require payment?

Most of the time in my experience this isn't a problem, a run either fails right away, succeeds in the end, or everyone agrees on a compromise. One weekend about 2 weeks ago for whatever reason, every time I went to do some Securing the Forest HFFF, something went wrong and the runs took about twice as long as what people were paying for. At this point, I told the leechers that they didn't need to pay if they didn't want to due to my failure of properly and expediently completing the run. My point? Take a mature attitude and make a fair decision without any rage or frustration. This applies to the rampant flames and trolls here on Guru, many seem to start because of personal attacks that some people feel require retribution. If you're so insecure that you have to "win" an argument on an online message board with someone you don't know, will never meet, and has no relevance to the important aspects of your life, please just find something else to occupy your time other than Guru.


I also think it has to do with boredom. From my perspective, I come here everyday, because it became a habit. When things were still new and exciting and you came here to buy/sell, to read about new/upcoming updates, to speculate about the future of GW, now we've really got nothing to do

The solution to this is simple. It's alright if there isn't as much discussion as "back in the day" because as you said, there isn't very much left in Guild Wars. The introduction of MOX sparked some nice discussion, and many people are still speculating about the effects of the upcoming HoM changes, but otherwise, Regina has stated there is no more planned content for Guild Wars 1. With this said, bored people have many other options than going to a discussion forum. Those who come here to do very little but troll and +1 threads would probably enjoy themselves far more at 4chan (http://www.4chan.org/) where the purpose is to have fun through shenanigans and obnoxious humor. It's in everyone's best interest :)

[wanmoke]

While there is that point, the OP never bothered to tell the runner what he expected. It's immoral to take a service then not pay for it because they didn't live up to your expectations when you didn't even tell them your expectations are. How do I know you'll find my post satisfactory if you don't tell me what qualifies as such?

What I also noticed and why I chose that particular thread is that the OP tried to defend his actions in the beginning, but when most of the responses were negative towards his position, he hasn't posted in it. He gave up. I think he posted in the hopes that people would agree with him.

Good discussion requires a certain level maturity from the participants. I've seen little of that since I joined. It's just how the online culture is, I think.

[DarkNecrid]

No one is going to agree with that, because while Guru is more in your face, very few people here are immoral scammers, which is what his topic comes down to.

[glacialphoenix]

What I also noticed and why I chose that particular thread is that the OP tried to defend his actions in the beginning, but when most of the responses were negative towards his position, he hasn't posted in it. He gave up. I think he posted in the hopes that people would agree with him.

I think posting in the hopes that people will agree with you is a huge mistake in Guru. There were people who made cracks about how they refused to pay runners over things like their character names, and plenty of subsequent posts reacted even more strongly to that than to the OP's statement.

Also, it may be just me, but any thread involving scamming inevitably comes down to a troll/flamewar. If you got scammed? You're a noob, even if you just mentioned that story as a form of explanation. If you're boasting about scamming? That's going to net you even more flames.

It's just how the online culture is, I think.

Not arguing with that. Lots of people get more aggressive and rude online because nobody's going to attempt to chastise them for it IRL.

[wanmoke]

I was trying to find a rationale behind his posting is why I said that. If he thought the thread was going to turn out good, he was setting himself up for disappointment.

[pamelf]

The game is quite old, and I agree with the poster above that it's a combination of veteran arrogance and newbies laziness..

On top of that however (and don't think I'm flaming the mods, overall they do a great job) I think that people get a bit tired of the restrictions placed on them by the moderators on the forum. We as a community have long been forced to conform to what they deem 'appropriate' or 'necessary' which is naturally completely subjective. Friendly discussion has never really been encouraged here, as anything not specifically 'on topic' is either deleted or given a public warning for. The forums in general try to be far too clinical in their approach to discussion, instead of letting it flow naturally we are in a sense sensored, more so than many other forums I've taken part in.

Because of this I've found that we're quite a jaded and brutal community as we have no choice but to get exactly to the point we want to make as quickly as possible,without the chance of getting to actually know our fellow posters and their personalities, as anything that is not specifically related discussion (even if the other discussion is friendly) is heavily censored.

Quite frankly, we are not allowed to be a friendly and open community.

[Jae Onasi]

Deleting off-topic posts has nothing to do with openness or friendliness. At LF we remove off-topic posts routinely, but the community is very open and friendly. In fact, I think it maintains that level of friendliness because we moderate actively. Our members who are more reserved, who prefer an environment not filled with swearing every other word, or who hate to waste time wading through pages of spam feel a lot more welcome to post.

You can get to the point in a thread and yet be friendly and courteous--it's a matter of how it's written. If someone disagrees with me and says "You're an f-ing idiot and have s--t for brains", it tells me a whole lot about that person's personality and character, and it's quite different from the person who says "I disagree with you on this point because of x, y, and z." If someone wants to portray themselves as friendly and open, all they have to do is write their posts that way consistently, and people will quickly figure it out. :)

[Commander Ryker]

On top of that however (and don't think I'm flaming the mods, overall they do a great job) I think that people get a bit tired of the restrictions placed on them by the moderators on the forum. We as a community have long been forced to conform to what they deem 'appropriate' or 'necessary' which is naturally completely subjective. Friendly discussion has never really been encouraged here, as anything not specifically 'on topic' is either deleted or given a public warning for. The forums in general try to be far too clinical in their approach to discussion, instead of letting it flow naturally we are in a sense sensored, more so than many other forums I've taken part in.

By who's standards should we moderate? Yours? Someone else? Everyone else? We have got to have some rules in place or it would be complete chaos. I have seen forums where there is no control at all and there's swearing, name calling, flaming etc. It's not a place I'd want to be and I think, neither would you. Guru is what it is because of the rules, not in spite of them.

Because of this I've found that we're quite a jaded and brutal community as we have no choice but to get exactly to the point we want to make as quickly as possible,without the chance of getting to actually know our fellow posters and their personalities, as anything that is not specifically related discussion (even if the other discussion is friendly) is heavily censored.

Quite frankly, we are not allowed to be a friendly and open community.

We encourage friendly and open. It's what we, as moderators work towards. What we don't encourage is hostility and meanness. It's because the community is brutal, jaded with a sense of entitlement and superiority that we've had to keep the forum moderated.

[Issac]

Some people just argue for fun now, like when it gets boring people tend to pick fights and screw around and be rude etc.

[pamelf]

By who's standards should we moderate? Yours? Someone else? Everyone else? We have got to have some rules in place or it would be complete chaos. I have seen forums where there is no control at all and there's swearing, name calling, flaming etc. It's not a place I'd want to be and I think, neither would you. Guru is what it is because of the rules, not in spite of them.



We encourage friendly and open. It's what we, as moderators work towards. What we don't encourage is hostility and meanness. It's because the community is brutal, jaded with a sense of entitlement and superiority that we've had to keep the forum moderated.

I agree that hostile, rude, and abusive posts need to go, but it was simply my observation that in general the actual discussion is not encouraged. People have written perfectly legitimate responses in the past and been censured for it for no apparent reason other than it was discussing something with another player personally via the forums.

Like I said, it's just an opinion, but the things that are censored are usually the types of posts that would actually allow us to get to know each other as people, not just as individuals who happen to share a common interest in a game.

[Malice Black]

As a former mod in Riverside I can say we NEVER censored anything or anyone. Off-topic posts in a discussion thread are deleted to keep the thread on track. Some posts are deleted because they contain references to deleted posts, hence why some legit posts do disappear.

Moderating Riverside is not an easy task. You also have to take into account each mod. Avarre for example is quite happy to let people bash each other within limits, I on the other hand deleted all BS. There is rules which mods must follow, but a lot of it in the discussion based forums is down to the mods judgment.

As for the decline of the forums I just don't see it. There is a lot of whinging etc, but there was whinging back in 2005 when I joined, it just wasn't as noticeable as there was far less users back then. Guru basically doubled the amount of users it had when Factions was released. Every area suddenly became very active, and with activity comes trouble.

There are bad apples in the current crowd, but they don't go unseen. I've had the benefit of being a mod so I know how everything works the behind the scene. If someone has been creating lots of useless threads or just been acting like a dick they will be user noted for it. Once they reach a certain amount of user notes they will be issued with a mini-ban.

Best thing to do is just ignore the trouble makers. If you see something that is rude etc hit the report button. Mods can't read every post in every thread, users have to help out also.

[Illfated Fat]

QFT

nothing in GW is exciting anymore. Most of the topics worth mentioning have already been said. And most topics get repeated every week, which some people find annoying.

So people flame, post with arrogant,rude, cynical and hypocritical content?

How primitive.

I agree with the OP - the quality of people and their posts is disappointing. People have become jaded, and lost sight of who they used to be: noobs, people with vested interest in discussions that they hadn't yet taken part in.

edit: Perhaps a reminder to some people who post on guru...


Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace there may be in kindness. As far as possible without surrender, be on good terms with all persons. Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

:)

[Avarre]

Moderation does play a part, to a degree. I'm not going to talk about moderator policy, but I'll go over some basic things.

Size: Guru is a large forum with a lot of posters of varying capability. I'd be happy to give threads more slack on how they conform to 'on-topicness', but the sheer number of posters means that any direction threads take is accelerated. That means a small diversion can rapidly become full-out alternative discussion. Hence, people may feel 'censored' to stay within more narrow topic boundaries, but as Guru becomes larger, it becomes more important to try and enforce that to keep the thread generally on-topic. A smaller, more known community would be much easier to have lower restrictions on.

'Class structure': There are not so many 'newbs' that ask questions and for advice, but there are a lot of players that assume and make their opinion fact. You're more likely to see 'the game is too hard' than 'I need help at XYZ', and that leads to threads becoming treacherous mires of players that collectively are inexperienced, yet their views are entrenched more than the German Army in 1916. While it may cause a lot more discussion, it means the discussion is generally terrible. This leads to a conundrum - do you allow discussion since technically, rules are obeyed, or do you clamp down on discussion that is bad to promote quality, and in that case, who's the judge of bad?

This also leads to the aggressive targeting of players by the community who are wrong but make the insistant assumption they are right (see: populationcontrol's N/W threads). Overall, that makes the community seem more vicious.

Just the first two things that came to my mind.

I'm a major supporter of community self-moderation - that bad posts should be labeled as such by the community, and hence quality can breed itself. However, this requires a community of good players to form the backbone, which is lacking. Often the players who are experienced are labeled as 'trolls' or 'griefers' because of the amount of contradictory posts they have to make in efforts to promote quality, and this promotes a general stagnation of poor posting.

[Ariena Najea]

Best thing to do is just ignore the trouble makers. If you see something that is rude etc hit the report button. Mods can't read every post in every thread, users have to help out also.


The probably with this is that many Guru members are actively looking for drama due to their boredom. The experienced Guru members do not use posts to scold bad posters unless there is a good reason, such as the poster providing incorrect information that would negatively affect the thread's discussion.

I appreciate the mods' efforts to control such a massive forum, however, with the overall brawl mentality to create drama and start fights, maybe a solution is to add a couple more mods in the high-traffic forums such as Sardelac.


I'm a major supporter of community self-moderation - that bad posts should be labeled as such by the community, and hence quality can breed itself. However, this requires a community of good players to form the backbone, which is lacking. Often the players who are experienced are labeled as 'trolls' or 'griefers' because of the amount of contradictory posts they have to make in efforts to promote quality, and this promotes a general stagnation of poor posting.

I also believe in this methodology, however, on a forum as large and diverse as Guru this does not work. I can think of several posters whose posts I look forward to reading because in general they are well-thought out and interesting to read. In contrast, there are a few users I consistently see trolling and flaming other users who rarely post anything of value. When the veteran members of Guru label individual posts and members as destructive, nothing prevents them from posting more junk and having others flame them for it.

As for the "community of good players to form the backbone" I do my very best and see several other players consistently post to a high standard, however, without other posters taking pride in their posts, those who do take pride can do little to inspire that in others. There are tangible rewards for posting well, so only the people who appreciate the non-tangible will take the time to come up with well written posts.

The only ways to encourage greatness is to give rewards or give punishments. If people don't find their own rewards in posting here, and instead choose to post crap, the only remaining solution is to moderate such posts. Again, Guru could use a few more moderators to deal with the massive amount of information posted.

[Savio]

So we have people who think we need to moderate more, and people who think we need to moderate less. I'm pretty sure that means we're where we should be.

[Ariena Najea]

So we have people who think we need to moderate more, and people who think we need to moderate less. I'm pretty sure that means we're where we should be.

I feel the current level of moderation is just about right on the forums, my intended point is that there is too much volume for the moderators to deal with at the current moderating standard. Things like the porn thread that was still here after several hours hurt Guru's reputation, and would be dealt with more swiftly with additional moderators on staff.

[Katsumi]

I feel the current level of moderation is just about right on the forums, my intended point is that there is too much volume for the moderators to deal with at the current moderating standard. Things like the porn thread that was still here after several hours hurt Guru's reputation, and would be dealt with more swiftly with additional moderators on staff.

Heh, I do know what you mean about that. But we all have to sleep/work sometime. :p Some things are going to slip through the cracks regardless of how many moderators there are.

We do have many more moderators than I've seen on other forums. Granted, we do have a higher volume of posts and users. As I mentioned earlier, there's always a ratio. The greater number of posts we have, there's a greater likelihood that something is going to be missed, whether it's a bad post in Riverside or a porn thread in Off Topic.

Some of our mods aren't as active as others, so some sections don't get as much attention as others. We all try to work together as much as possible to get things taken care of though. But regardless of how many moderators there are, somethings are going to get through, unfortunately.

[Age]

I have been here for over 3 years now and the what OP is saying is true the quality has gone down.You see posts with kitty pictures in them or any pics for that matter and there are more spammers just wanting to increase thier post count.It was a lot differnet pior 05 and 06 as the quality was really good from it went down.

The Guru is no more differse than GWIncgamers aka GWO it is just has big as the same site content and has just as many forums.The titles Moderators use is not necesarry more on the positive would be and debating with forum members is something that Moderators shouldn't be doing.I know Moderators have dislike and like for certian forum members which you shouldn't.

I do agree the quality of The Guru in last 2 years has gone down since 06.I am not sure why.I really enjoyed The Guru back in those days.I would like to point out there is more rubbing/baiting going on with emote /facepalm which to me is personal attack or an assault do that in real life and see where it gets you.It could mean the Admins don't how thier site looks or what get said on it as you can't take issues up with them.

[Taurucis]

I agree with the OP.

I joined a couple years ago when Guru was a fun place to be... A few months before I joined guru, I always hung around the "Post your funny ______!" threads because they were full of friendly comments, funny pictures/experiences, and it was just generally nice to read.

The aren't any threads I check on a regular basis anymore. It's either full of people arguing, or useless spam, or stuff that bashes other people.

As for the bit about "Should guru be moderated more, or moderated less?" personally I think it should be moderated more.

People have attempted to stalk, sexually harass, flame, and troll me, though I haven't really seen the moderators do anything about the perpetrators. (A few of those trolls are still bouncing around the IRC channel, happily trolling to their hearts' content.) Someone even claimed that he would send me a virus over IRC, though I managed to sort the issue out with the gamesurge support.

In the forums I liberally use the report button when I see a troll/rude post, about one in three times the mods do something. Another problem I noticed is that mods allow certain members to troll, hurl about insults, deviate from the original topic. I don't really have a problem with a particular mod, it's more like human nature I have trouble with... it is not the easiest thing to do, telling a friend that he/she has crossed the line.

"This is the internet, you're too serious, grow a thicker skin, QQ more, etc" I don't really care about that crap the trolls spout, this may be the internet but you are still interacting with real people. Caring about other's feelings is not "deep" or "carebearish" or "sissy" - it is being a human being, which is something quite a few guru goers have trouble with.

[Ariena Najea]

The aren't any threads I check on a regular basis anymore. It's either full of people arguing, or useless spam, or stuff that bashes other people.

A good point I don't believe was brought up until you mentioned it :)

It's almost a guarantee given Guru's current state that once a thread is more than a page, it's no longer worth going back to due to the lack of good conversation. A lot of the "help me out" threads are inherently like this and that's fine, but the debate/discussion threads (especially the lore ones) start out so interesting to read... and then mad-troll-disease sets in. I rarely check in with how discussions are going once they start to go downhill because there's never a point. Once someone posts a cat, the thread's lifespan becomes a ticking time bomb of insults/immaturity and is closed due to the spam. For another bad analogy, intelligent posting here is like being able to have fun without being drunk.

I used to see more bans for people wrecking threads in this manner, but I understand that the mods can't go through all the posts of every thread and give bans to every minor offender, however, every time I come back to this thread I realize even more so how Guru needs more mods to keep the forum under control.


Heh, I do know what you mean about that. But we all have to sleep/work sometime. Some things are going to slip through the cracks regardless of how many moderators there are.

I understand moderators need to sleep, the solution isn't to give up, it's to add additional moderators who are on during the less-moderated times. The reason fire departments don't have an unlimited number of firetrucks and firefighters is because money is limited. Here on Guru, the number of capable, experienced, and trustworthy members far exceeds the optimal number of moderators, so supply is not an issue. There are no real costs of adding more moderators other than the time to inform the new moderators of how the behind-the-scenes systems work and perhaps pass on some advice. I feel our Guru administration is too caught up in trying to limit the number of moderators to realize that many of the problems mentioned in this thread would be resolved or mitigated by adding more capable mods.

[Katsumi]

While I agree with your position overall, Ariena, finding moderators is not as easy as you may think. There are few people who demonstrate their commitment to helping others in this community, as well as playing an active role in the day to day goings on of the forum.

I'm sure whenever there's an announcement for more mods, more than a few people respond. But most of them only want it to have their name in black text, or a signature, or fancy title. Those are not the kind of people we need.

I personally have never heard any talk of trying to limit the number of mods. Finding responsible, trustworthy people who can represent both themselves and the community well is the only limiting factor. Finding people like that on the internet, I'm sure you'll agree, can be a daunting task at times.

And please don't take anything I'm saying as hostile. I don't mean to come across like that. It's obvious you care very much about this issue and I'm just trying to shed a little light on it.

[Diddy bow]

Its bcause Guild wars is a very old game now, nothing is really left to be discovered so there are loads of people moaning about how much they hate it :).

I do miss alot of the old threads though, espically you laugh you lose :(

[Inde]

I understand moderators need to sleep, the solution isn't to give up, it's to add additional moderators who are on during the less-moderated times. The reason fire departments don't have an unlimited number of firetrucks and firefighters is because money is limited. Here on Guru, the number of capable, experienced, and trustworthy members far exceeds the optimal number of moderators, so supply is not an issue. There are no real costs of adding more moderators other than the time to inform the new moderators of how the behind-the-scenes systems work and perhaps pass on some advice. I feel our Guru administration is too caught up in trying to limit the number of moderators to realize that many of the problems mentioned in this thread would be resolved or mitigated by adding more capable mods.
Heavens, I'm really going to go off here, write it up as a bitter admin, overworked, or just a bad mood but some of these posts are a bit too much opinion versus any actual facts. I know that perception is everything but some of these are far out in left field.

First off, excuse my shock at being told what I'm "too caught up in". I'm also so glad that you are the expert at knowing who exactly applies for these positions in the community. :)

Sarcasm aside, no it's not as easy as just bringing in more mods (let alone capable mods) who I can just turn loose and trust to moderate the forum and community as needed. There is actually a learning curve, I'm sure some of the new moderators on this site can tell you that. Not to mention that in this thread alone there have been some community members asking for less moderation. Which just goes to show that everyone has an opinion and a mindset on how they believe would be the best way to handle a situation, without actually being in the situation.

And to Age, your entire post is just phooey really, we are more then twice the size of GWO, moderators shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion? That's just ridiculous. I don't know or care how the site looks? I can guarantee you first hand I know exactly how Guru is protrayed/stereotyped/talked about or not talked about in the community. I visit daily more GW sites/guild sites/fan sites/gaming news sites then you can imagine. You can certainly take up any issue with me, as you have before... just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean I don't care. :D

To Taurucis, we have indeed done something about it. Not sure why you are dredging up old news. I can understand that you were upset about it but we took action. Not to mention that no... I can't see your IRC PM's and what was said, so have no proof of anything that happens in an IRC PM to base any action off of. Your word against someone else's is never going to be a punishable offense unless I can witness it. Thought that was pretty self-explanatory and anyone else on this board should be thankful that I don't start banning based on no evidence.

As you can clearly see I'm watching and have been reading this thread. The majority are either of the opinion that it's the community in general that is bringing it down, the moderators, or that it's just a dying game and this is a natural cycle in that. I could state my own opinion on the matter but I think others in this thread have definitely touched on some of the key points.

[Jae Onasi]

Things like the porn thread that was still here after several hours hurt Guru's reputation, and would be dealt with more swiftly with additional moderators on staff.

In the case of porn, extreme trolling/outright flaming, or something along that line that I think needs immediate attention, I'll look to see which admins/s-mods are online and drop them a PM on top of reporting the post. I'm not sure how the report post system works on the back end of things here, so I don't know if mods get a pop-up, email notification, or what, or how long the system takes to kick a report to them. I figure a PM is pretty immediate.

By the way, thanks to all of you who take care of that. I have young kids, and we have one of our computers in the kitchen. I don't want to have a porn thread pop up when my kids happen to be looking over my shoulder or even just walking by. If that wasn't addressed so quickly, I, and I suspect a lot of other parents, would have to find an alternative to guru, which I would not want to do--there's usually always something interesting going on here, and I like this site.

[Age]

Heavens, I'm really going to go off here, write it up as a bitter admin, overworked, or just a bad mood but some of these posts are a bit too much opinion versus any actual facts. I know that perception is everything but some of these are far out in left field.

First off, excuse my shock at being told what I'm "too caught up in". I'm also so glad that you are the expert at knowing who exactly applies for these positions in the community. :)

Sarcasm aside, no it's not as easy as just bringing in more mods (let alone capable mods) who I can just turn loose and trust to moderate the forum and community as needed. There is actually a learning curve, I'm sure some of the new moderators on this site can tell you that. Not to mention that in this thread alone there have been some community members asking for less moderation. Which just goes to show that everyone has an opinion and a mindset on how they believe would be the best way to handle a situation, without actually being in the situation.

And to Age, your entire post is just phooey really, we are more then twice the size of GWO, moderators shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion? That's just ridiculous. I don't know or care how the site looks? I can guarantee you first hand I know exactly how Guru is protrayed/stereotyped/talked about or not talked about in the community. I visit daily more GW sites/guild sites/fan sites/gaming news sites then you can imagine. You can certainly take up any issue with me, as you have before... just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean I don't care. :D

You do do you are on more fansites than me not just Guild Wars but others as well.I am on more than you think and also clansites.I have list as long as my arm is on how many I am on which I couldn't even name them all off the top of my head.

GWIngamers may not be a big but it has the same sorts of forums that the The Guru has.When it comes to moderation even the quality has gone in that dept.I would never let my Mods do what yours are doing sure they can have unbiassed opinion without degrading of forum members.

What about that PM I sent you as you did nothing about it?Did you care then?

[Hyper.nl]

I still am kind of surprised by the harshness of quite some of the Guru members here. I'm active in many forums, including gaming forums but I don't see anything to the degree of general rudeness here.

What we need to understand is the diversity of the posters, and try to keep respect for each other, even if they don't behave as you like it to see. For example, if someone makes a suggestion in Sardelac that has been made x times before you can post one of the many "/fail" pictures but that does not really contribute. Better is to politely tell that it has been suggested before with links to the appropriate threads. If you don't want to make this effort, just leave the thread alone and let the mods do their job.

If you are bored with Guild Wars after x000 hours, just leave it alone for some time. There are plenty of other games around. (Of which many will not provide as much quality and playing time as Guild Wars imo.) Trolling around at Guru about the fact that it was better in 2005 will not help you anything.

It also could help if the forum software would not reward titles just for post count but also on quality of the posts. I've seen implementations where every registered forum member can vote for the quality and helpfulness of every single post and with it only reward posts that contribute to the discussion.

Example:
-1 points for rude rude posts, trolls, flames etc.
0 points for posts that do not contribute, like posting "/signed" without explanation.
1 point for general posts
2 or more points for helpful, good interesting (etc.) posts.

[Avarre]

A 'quality' vote system requires that the general community is capable of telling what is quality and what is not. It is my view that the player level on this forum is incapable of that. It would turn into 'who says things the nicest' or 'who makes the most irrelevant witty lolcomments'.

I've been sitting around doing nothing important today, so I have an excess of ire built up. So now I'll address some comments regarding moderation! None of these views are anything but my own, do not contact Inde, she will not care.

Moderating (and keeping track of users in discussions before that) has allowed me to pretty much build an opinion of most posters on Guru - to the point I know from the 'last poster' notice what their post will be in most discussion threads. Allow me to expand:

The people complaining about excessive trolling on the forums are usually people who post empty opinions that clog up discussions and thus get attacked by people trying to have a serious conversation. Sometimes they aren't even bad posters, but it's not common that someone is trolled without first making themselves a target.

The people complaining moderation is cruel/bad are usually posting things that need to be moderated.

If I wanted, legitimately, to improve the quality of discussion on Guru, my first order of business would be to permanently ban about half to three-quarters of the users. I can't do that though, for obvious reasons. It would then involve a large cash sum to be delivered to players that are experienced and familiar with Guru, to bribe them into caring enough to mod. Finally, I would need to drug the ANet staff enough for them to consider making GW good enough again to attract a solid, developing playerbase.

The fact is, the majority of the good players are gone. Discussion will take a hit because of this, it's inevitable. With the game as stagnant as it is, there's not going to be an improvement without massive changes, and Guru isn't likely to do anything of that sort because it would be a disservice to the users caught in the collateral of such a change.

[Tatile]

Perhaps getting rid of these little titles all-together could be beneficial, even if only for a test period. It may stop people from randomly spamming every thread they manage to stumble into, but, given what I've seen recently, I think not.

I must say though that I am impressed with the amount of moderation our Mods have to go through and how they handle it. The PAX Girls Panel thread would seem the right place for mass trolling and lolcatting, but Avarre and others have worked hard to keep it a decent conversation. It's good to see also that the thread has several different topics running through it that haven't yet been deleted because they don't stick to the original post. Thanks for keeping it clean.

:)

[ghost well you know]

You do do you are on more fansites than me not just Guild Wars but others as well.I am on more than you think and also clansites.I have list as long as my arm is on how many I am on which I couldn't even name them all off the top of my head.

GWIngamers may not be a big but it has the same sorts of forums that the The Guru has.When it comes to moderation even the quality has gone in that dept.I would never let my Mods do what yours are doing sure they can have unbiassed opinion without degrading of forum members.

What about that PM I sent you as you did nothing about it?Did you care then?

I will say this I know there is 1 mod on here that could help out just by trying to not be so rude to people.When someone is stating something just because you don't agree and you are a mod does not give you the right to be rude.But hey they are a mod and they can do that.
I think most mods do a good job but as always theres always going to be a few people with power that think they are allowed to be justified because they are a mod.

[Inde]

If you feel there is a problem with a moderator then please contact me through PM and I will be happy to look into and address the situation.

[Earth]

GWIngamers may not be a big but it has the same sorts of forums that the The Guru has.When it comes to moderation even the quality has gone in that dept.I would never let my Mods do what yours are doing sure they can have unbiassed opinion without degrading of forum members.

I agree mods shouldn't degrade members, though I'm pretty sure I'm guilty of that too somewhat ;), yet some people here are oversensitive. You say "PvE sucks", and they take it as an insult because they take it as saying "PvE sucks and so do people who play it". No matter what you say, there are always some people who'll feel insulted for some silly reason.




People have attempted to stalk, sexually harass, flame, and troll me, though I haven't really seen the moderators do anything about the perpetrators. (A few of those trolls are still bouncing around the IRC channel, happily trolling to their hearts' content.) Someone even claimed that he would send me a virus over IRC, though I managed to sort the issue out with the gamesurge support.

Pretty sure we can't catch everything, and what you may see as trolling is something the mods don't see as trolling. Different people, different viewpoints.

Define "stalking". I don't get how you can stalk someone over a forum.

Also, IRC =! guru. Banning people from here doesn't mean we ban people from IRC, and vice versa.

Another problem I noticed is that mods allow certain members to troll, hurl about insults, deviate from the original topic.

Not every mod... And we aren't on here 24/7, and sometimes stuff just doesn't get reported at all so we miss things.


Oh, and not trying to insult you, but have you tried GWO? You seem to really hate guru... And, knowing you, I think you'll enjoy GWO more... Once again not insulting you or anything, just that there's not much point coming here if you don't enjoy it.

[Taurucis]

To Taurucis, we have indeed done something about it. Not sure why you are dredging up old news. I can understand that you were upset about it but we took action. Not to mention that no... I can't see your IRC PM's and what was said, so have no proof of anything that happens in an IRC PM to base any action off of. Your word against someone else's is never going to be a punishable offense unless I can witness it. Thought that was pretty self-explanatory and anyone else on this board should be thankful that I don't start banning based on no evidence.
The last time I logged into IRC was, I dunno, a couple weeks ago. I didn't see anything happen to the perpetrators, so naturally I would assume that nothing happened.

There's another bit of a problem - no one knows if a troll they reported got banned, or warned, or punished somehow, so they assume that the troll is able to get around the rules.

One forum I lurk in has something like this. They've got a "Ban Log" and even though that forum seems to be moderated by 12 year old kids on crack, they post when people get banned, and why said person got banned.

Pretty sure we can't catch everything, and what you may see as trolling is something the mods don't see as trolling. Different people, different viewpoints.
No, what I meant is when I use the report button.

IIRC a rather "well-known" member of guru insulted some person and his entire guild, I reported his post, and I'm not sure if any action was taken.

Define "stalking". I don't get how you can stalk someone over a forum.
Not exactly in the way you're thinking, but he PMed me and said that he'd google everything about me and track my IP down to where I live. But I don't really care, usually the only kind of person pathetic enough to stalk someone they meet online is going to be a fat insecure little boy who I don't have to worry about.

Also, IRC =! guru. Banning people from here doesn't mean we ban people from IRC, and vice versa.
Yeah, I know, there's one particular fruit that's still contentedly trolling IRC...

Not every mod... And we aren't on here 24/7, and sometimes stuff just doesn't get reported at all so we miss things.
Just because people don't report it, doesn't mean that it is nonexistant.

Oh, and not trying to insult you, but have you tried GWO? You seem to really hate guru... And, knowing you, I think you'll enjoy GWO more... Once again not insulting you or anything, just that there's not much point coming here if you don't enjoy it.
GWO is completely on the other side of the spectrum, it's so heavily moderated that it's impossible to have a good discussion.

I do have an account on GWO, haven't been there for a few months since the virus report.

[Katsumi]

Yeah, I know, there's one particular fruit that's still contentedly trolling IRC...
Not anymore. :)

[Age]

I will say this I know there is 1 mod on here that could help out just by trying to not be so rude to people.When someone is stating something just because you don't agree and you are a mod does not give you the right to be rude.But hey they are a mod and they can do that.
I think most mods do a good job but as always theres always going to be a few people with power that think they are allowed to be justified because they are a mod.
No that does not give them the right to do that can a Police Officer do this to you without getting an harrasment suite filed agaisnt them.No they can't as it would be abusing the law.

It isn't that hard to find good Mods that are mature and act like it.It wouldn't be hard for me to find new mods on my board if I needed them.

To Avvare if you banned 50 to 75% of the members here they would flock over to GW Incgamers or other boards but sometimes I think smaller boards or communities are better as you get to know each other better and have respect among each other.That is something missing on The Guru and even GWIncgamers is respect.

[quickmonty]

I've been a long time member of Guru, although I haven't been spending the time here lately that I used to.

The population of Guru has increased dramatically over the years. With that comes an increase in the bad as well as the good posters. It seems lately that there are quite a few people who just jump in and start new threads without thinking. Rule #1 that I learned a long time ago about forums in general: Lurk! Learn what the community is about before you jump in and shoot yourself in the foot. Rule #2 is read the posting rules and the stickies.

Moderators: It's a tough job on forums like these. I've have, on several occasions, been asked why I don't apply as a moderator. I don't have the time or the patience. Also, I'm a super admin on my guild's website and am VERY strict with posts that violate our forum rules. I'm probably less tolerant than most of the mods here.

I believe there are too many +1 responses, particularly in the Q&A forums, when after a question is answered and the OP replies with a "thank you" others just continue to post, mostly with things that have already been said.

Over time I have gotten bored with some of the forum sections, mostly due to the same suggestions and thoughts being hashed over and over. Someone already stated, and I agree, that once a thread gets into it's second or third page the quality of the thread usually deteriorates.

Enjoy these forums for what they are, develop a thick skin, and realize that the mods are human and doing the best that they can.

[Snow Bunny]

Inde's post was pretty spot on, especially her response to Age's rather clueless remark.

It's human tendency to have opinions and to make favorites. Someone like Fenix (he and I don't always get along but he's an excellent example so I'll use him here) can be sarcastic, demeaning, and elitist. He'll also fairly frequently flame people.

The noteworthy part of it is, he's pretty much always right. Despite his occasional flaming, he's normally right both logically and factually, and doesn't make obnoxious posts that your eyes glaze over. So despite his flames, he's a pretty decent poster. Someone who makes posts that are quite wrong factually and logically are going to draw flames.

I'd prefer the mods to have opinions and favoritisms, mainly because the mods are going to favor those who post well and are going to have generally good opinions. The reasons most mods are mods is because they showed themselves to be qualified, knowledgeable, helpful, and experienced enough to moderate these forums.

If anything has gone down in terms of post quality, it's more and more posters asking more and more stupid questions and coming to even worse conclusions than before.

[Lasareth]

Regarding the slow decline in the quality of posts, I'll have to go against some opinions here and say that there has been a general decrease in what I'd qualify as quality. I'd attribute this to the fact that the game really isn't going anywhere, unless you consider periodic skill updates as progress. There is simply less new content for people to debate and I'd take a shot in the dark and say that the content that is changing is the type of content that brings out the worst in the complainers; as a result you are seeing the same as usual in that department but nothing else, so the cumulative effect is that general posting is worse.

Everyone has their own idea about how things should be done; we obviously can't accommodate all of you, so we don't try. We instead pick whichever way works best for our board and stick to it. Just because someone is a mod or admin doesn't make their opinion more correct than someone else's. God knows I've seen some terrible administrators, some that can't communicate, and some that don't care. Our moderators here are not perfect, and some are abrasive and can cross the line. They do get reprimanded, we don't let them free roam, but they don't lose their positions over infrequent transgressions.

[Ariena Najea]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but was this thread temporarily closed?

In any case, I think most of us agree that the current situation on Guru is not by any means the fault of our moderators/admins. Personally I feel all of you do an excellent job to manage such an enormous forum, although it would be nice if once in a while you took shifts so mere things like sleeping and eating didn't get in the way of your moderation.

Another thing I feel most of us agree upon is that the decay of good conversation is largely due to few new developments in the game in addition to the massive influx of "noobish" questions that have been answered over a hundred times before. Many new members do not use the search button or read the stickies before posting causing this problem.

It's a good sign that several moderators and administrators have taken an interest in this thread. I feel that with the information re-written in the previous paragraph can help to solve the problem if new changes are implemented. What about some sort of forum by forum validation system whose validation code is in a sticky? I've never administrated a vBulletin before so I don't know if this is possible, but disabling posting or thread starting in a forum until you enter a code seems plausible. Each forum has its own rules, by throwing in part of the code at the end of every section users would at least glance over the rules before posting. Providing a section with information about the stickies in that forum would probably stop a significant number of silly questions. Once the code is entered for a forum once, it would remain unlocked for that user.

Obviously unless extremely well implemented this idea would create chaos. New users would be clueless as to why they could only read threads even after registering, and the poor moderators and admins would potentially receive over 9000 stupid messages on a daily basis. My point with that suggestion is that with another step before posting users are forced to at least be exposed to the rules or sticky information before starting a thread.

Once again, thank you for taking an active interest in this thread.

[Jae Onasi]

If a validation code was required to post or start a thread every time, I'd find that annoying, to be honest. I'd rather have the freedom to post. I think going to a validation system would make it more work for legitimate users and have a tendency to push people away from the forum.

[Katsumi]

He meant only the first time they try to post in a forum, Jae, not every time. :)

This could be interesting, but I would not want to moderate it...

[MrSlayer]

I will say that it seems to be largely to do with the length of time that posters have been playing the game actively. This is very noticeable when you move to another MMORPG which is quite old, yet still very active. I talk here, about WoW (I'm sure it's the same everywhere, but this is based on personal experience).

If you just want the summary, skip the follow 6 paragraphs :)

I made my first solo character, a Gnome Warlock. I levelled, and loved every minute of it. There were a few things I didn't like, but I got over them and continued. It was new, and it was exciting.

My friend also made a Gnome Warlock. We both wanted the same thing out of the game; some fun levelling, and then a chance for high-end raiding and good (clean) group fun. But here's what we did differently. She read alot of forums about Warlocks and the general game, and I just browsed the "need to knows" on wiki and some of the important Warlock threads (so I knew how to play my class).

Each time the game was updated, I'd be excited about changes when I read them. She would be complaining about things that had been nerfed, things at this point she had never used or experienced, and the regular complaints of the community. Bear in mind she started playing at the exact same time as me. Anyway we both pushed on.

We hit 70 within a couple of weeks of each other, and were both pondering how to gear up. She refused to enter instances without a full team of people she knew, and wanted to max her hit rating to 202 and spell damage to 850 before she started. She also wanted to read wiki about each and every instance before entering them so she knew what to expect. And she kept reading forums about warlocks (which did help me too, but also gave her this huge list of "things expected of pro players"), and about the game. She could always tell me about glitches people hated.

I was less bothered. I wanted to start raiding, and set out to find a guild to help me. I didn't worry about my stats or DPS. And in only a few weeks, I had seen more instance runs (all successful) and had more gear. My DPS was nearing the amount she wanted, and my hit was NEVER questioned. This wasn't just luck. I hit 4th in the DPS meter in my first Kara run (at this point, still lower than my ideal stats). To you, this may be meaningless babble. But suffice to say, it's like me joining an FoW or UW clear group (not quite DoA) with no idea what to do, and being able to complete a run in decent time just off the friendliness and helpfulness of those I was in the run with.

Meanwhile, her Warlock was gathering dust. She didn't want to do the instances because she felt she'd be accused of having sub-parr gear. She didn't want to join a guild in risk of them wanting her raiding full time, and she let the comments of those on the forums run her Warlock in game.

To sum it up here, 6 paragraphs later. She read the forums for WoW, and let the gripes of the community hit her own playstyle, whilst I just enjoyed the game. And I ended up better for it. The players who post on the official WoW forums are the same as those who post here; they have mostly complaints and bitterness for what they feel are stupid updates. And the players who avoid the forums are having a WHALE of a time in game. Loving every minute of the gaming experience for what it is; pure, unadulterated fun.

Large numbers of people loitering and complaining in one place will inevitably lead to exactly what guru has here: people who think they know it all posting insulting and un-useful posts for those who just want quick answers to certain issues. This is why I didn't read the WoW forums...because of my experiences with guru. And it payed off for me.

Anyway, just my slightly lengthy 2 cents.

[Ariena Najea]

If a validation code was required to post or start a thread every time, I'd find that annoying, to be honest. I'd rather have the freedom to post. I think going to a validation system would make it more work for legitimate users and have a tendency to push people away from the forum.


This would only be required once per forum (probably would not require additional validation for sub-forums). Yes it would discourage new users from coming, however, anyone not willing to take 5 minutes to read the rules in order to become validated shouldn't really be here anyways.

I will say that it seems to be largely to do with the length of time that posters have been playing the game actively. This is very noticeable when you move to another MMORPG which is quite old, yet still very active. I talk here, about WoW (I'm sure it's the same everywhere, but this is based on personal experience)

The main difference as it relates to this discussion is that in WoW new material is released periodically, while in Guild Wars it has been stated there will be no additional content. As such, there is anticipation for the next WoW update while for Guild Wars, many people sit around talking about the glory days.

I can connect with your story even though I have not played WoW. I'll admit that when I was an avid console RPG gamer, I regularly used strategy guides. Games aren't as much fun when you're told what to play and how to play it for certain. Many Guru members do not seem to realize that this site is only a tool, potentially for simply enjoying yourself more in-game, by being able to find a seller for that rare skin you want, or creating a useful Mo/R DPS build or whatever. All too often in the Campfire forum I see posters complaining that the OP is refusing to take a suggestion simply because the OP prefers an original setup, rather than a cookie cutter build "that works".

In my recent pre-searing travels I encountered two new players whom after talking to for a while were allowed into my guild. One of them in the week and a half she has played has spent 5-10 hours a day on average playing the game and she couldn't be happier with her purchase (although we didn't have the heart to tell her about the Ultimate Collection which would have saved her money). Our alliance has helped her extensively by questing with her, donating equipment, and helping with her builds. She's planning on coming to Guru once she finishes Prophecies and hopes to get some fresh ideas on more ways to have fun, not get the latest meta :)


This could be interesting, but I would not want to moderate it...
The idea is that this system would be automated and not waste the mods/admins' time.

[Inde]

Ariena,

This would require major coding and is not possible at this time. In addition, the vb forum software has enough problems remembering login's and the ability to log out so it wouldn't just be a "one time" validation and would only serve to further frustrate users.

[MrSlayer]

In my recent pre-searing travels I encountered two new players whom after talking to for a while were allowed into my guild. One of them in the week and a half she has played has spent 5-10 hours a day on average playing the game and she couldn't be happier with her purchase (although we didn't have the heart to tell her about the Ultimate Collection which would have saved her money). Our alliance has helped her extensively by questing with her, donating equipment, and helping with her builds. She's planning on coming to Guru once she finishes Prophecies and hopes to get some fresh ideas on more ways to have fun, not get the latest meta :)
That's awesome! I have to admit, my only real time in GW recently has been to log in and see if I can find anyone who is asking a potentially flame-worthy question, then taking some time out to just help them out with their problem. Alot of posters on guru will say "The newer players just aren't willing to listen."

Whilst I've had a few people get bitchy with me for offering them advice, it has to be the needle in the haystack. Pretty much everybody else is happy for the help, and I've ended up friend-listing a few players and having them whisper me days/weeks later with thanks, or with news on a purchase/item they have managed to get. It brings a smile to my face to see them so happy about it too.

[Donovan Cyclonus]

I've came face to face with some negativity with some people on this site. A lot of the other sites I use are like that so I can handle it allright