Single target spike?

[Targren]

For most of my recent PvE career, [[Splinter Weapon] + [[Barrage] has been aaaaaaaawesome for when I spec for damage.

Now, alas, I have decided to finally finish Nightfall, and I find that it is not generally a good idea since having FIVE demons call using CttT at once is really really bad. Like, "Crossing the streams" bad.

Since my H/H seem to always have pathing, body blocking, or just general petulance issues, it appears it falls to me to finish the job when that monster-equivalent-of-ursan pops up. Anyone recommend some good spike damage? If it's expensive or has drawbacks, I can probably deal with it as long as I can take the bugger down, and pay for it while my AI mates work on the next one.

[the ruloes]

If you're looking for a pure spike, perhaps the forked-arrow spike is something to consider?

[forked arrow] [dual shot] [savage shot] [glass arrows] is the backbone of the spike, with [brutal weapon] from a ritualist, perhaps [favorable winds] and/or [lightning reflexes] for more damage.

Using forked arrow and dual shot right after each other will generate a pretty hefty punch, and savage shot is used to follow up, especially when shooting monks, to not only disrupt any potential countermeasure, but also to have a quick 5. shot.

Perhaps, since you're in PvE, you could consider [triple shot] ?

Also, if you're running a necro curses hero, microing [mark of pain] will result in not only a hefty single-target spike, but a large AoE bomb.

[Adja1005]

I assume you're wanting a good damage dealing bow build then? well this is what i tend to use, switch and swap skills accordingly.

[glass arrows][triple shot (luxon)][dual shot][keen arrow][i am the strongest][lightning reflexes][troll unguent][mending touch]

Expertise: 14 (12 +2)
Marksmanship: 14 (12+1+1)
Wilderness Survival: 3

Variations:

Swap Keen Arrow for [savage shot] or [distracting shot] to give yourself an interupt. Or [sloth hunters shot] and [screaming shot] for some heavy damage and bonus conditional damage. I personally choose Keen Arrow due to its low energy cost and the large amount of damage it can deal.

Take out IATS and replace it with [finish him] to literally finish a target off after you've spiked it. You could swap out IATS for [Ebon Battle Standard of Honor] however i much prefer IATS due to its untimed duration and the fact it costs only 5 energy and can be used long before a fight.

Equipment:

I personally use a vampiric recurve bow with the usual 15^50 and +30 mods along with a perfect vampiric mod. Using triple and dual shot with a vamp bow will grant you +25 health gain when you use these two skills.

Just remember that like any build this isn't 100% perfect but it does the job of dealing sufficently deadly spike damage to an enemy.

[Targren]

Looks like the core of both suggestions is glass + dual (I only have sunspear ranks and 2 LB, no Kurz/Lux or Norn) and general +dmg attacks.

Thanks, I'll try that out.

[Adja1005]

Looks like the core of both suggestions is glass + dual (I only have sunspear ranks and 2 LB, no Kurz/Lux or Norn) and general +dmg attacks.

Thanks, I'll try that out.

If you have Factions then i suggest you strongly think about obtaining Triple Shot from the Luxon/Kurzick faction rewards NPC. Triple Shot at the very lowest rank in the Luxon/Kurzick title track deals more damage on average than dual shot will. And obviously as you progress in the title the damage it deals increases.

[Rift]

Keep your [splinter weapon][barrage] build, but add [nightmare weapon][triple shot] for a great spike potential, no matter your lux/kurz rank. You should already be speccing heavily in Channeling since it is your main source of armor-ignoring damage (in a splinter-barrage build, I believe it best to have 12 Channeling, and only enough Marks to wield your bow)

If you have EotN, then [nightmare weapon][triple shot][finish him] becomes a very effective spike due to the automatic deep wound.

An SS necro hero with [barbs] and a bunch of minions swarming the target will melt their hp away.

[Targren]

If you have Factions then i suggest you strongly think about obtaining Triple Shot from the Luxon/Kurzick faction rewards NPC. Triple Shot at the very lowest rank in the Luxon/Kurzick title track deals more damage on average than dual shot will. And obviously as you progress in the title the damage it deals increases.

Unfortunately, the path to those upgrades is long and arduous. :P I'll see what happens though, since I've got to take the ranger to Echovald anyway to get GA.

[Taisayacho]

One thing I like to run is glass arrows + point blank shot + [zojun's shot]. At 15 expertise you're hitting for 20 + 40 + base damage.
Because of 3 second recharge on both of those, you hit about 80 each hit on casters, and if you add a weapon spell like brutal or nightmare weapon, then it can easily be over 100 damage or give you some life stealing.
Downside- close range.

[Targren]

Downside- close range.

That's what I was thinking when I saw the skills. If I get too much eeeeevil demon loving, that means pulling my A"I"s off of their target to take the aggro back, which means more risk of them pulling of CttT.

It wouldn't be so bad if they didn't block the LB gain on the dupes. :P

[Calamity's Advocate]

If you're iffy about spike builds, you can always try mass degen on the baddies.

My ranger used mass degen through almost all of NF and had no problems.

[Tyla]

Degen is pressure, not spike.

Nightmare Weapon + Triple Shot, with Barrage / Volley + Splinter should be enough for a strong spike, and also gives you a bit of splash damage.

Just keep D-Shot in your bar. :)

[Targren]

If you're iffy about spike builds, you can always try mass degen on the baddies.

My ranger used mass degen through almost all of NF and had no problems.

Hmm... There's a thought. I'll have to check if they are fleshy... maybe [Apply Poison] + [Screaming Shot] + [Toxicity]...

Though the Screamer puts me in the white zone anyway, and the spirit means more attrib spread...

Something to think on, though. Thanks for the idea.


Just keep D-Shot in your bar


You mean for general interrupting, and not specifically dealing with CttF right? I tried a dozen+ times to interrupt it before looking it up and realizing it wasn't interruptible. *facepalm*

[Calamity's Advocate]

You don't need screamin shot. Though I like to have
Burning Arrow (E)
Screaming Shot/ Hunter's Shot
Apply Poison

when I'm going for degen.

Epidemic (Mes) also works wonders with a degen build

[ALF71BE]

On the post that made Adja, I also reccommend using a zealous bow, as Triple + Dual is 8 energy. Get a Recurve Bow and if you have EotN, use [Lightning Reflexes] in combination with [Dwarven stability]. Keen Arrow is just fine for the low cost and quick recharge, especially when using a Paragon with GftE!, although an interrupt is always very useful (AKA D-shot is teh best skill evar!).

Bad thing about mobs is that usually you're only mostly hiting for the "+damage" and your auto attack is kinda patethic for their high level, so I prefer shutting them down.

[horseradish]

[Drunken Master] > [Lightning Reflexes] + [Dwarven Stability] if you can spare some ales.

In terms of mass degen, trapping is the way to go.

[Adja1005]

[dwarven stability]+[drunken master] = constant IAS of 15% with a maxed Deldrimore title. The only downside to DM is the need for alcohol to keep up that constant 33% IAS. But even if you dont use alcohol an IAS of 15% is still beneficial when it can be kept up almost constantly.

The only reason i find [lightning reflexes] + [dwarven stability] usefull is for the 75% block that LR provides. Very handy if you find yourself the target of a melee enemy or if you use a shortbow.

[malko050987]

When I want to feel all powerful and such, I use a build with [prepared shot] + [expert focus] and [sloth hunter's shot]

You hit pretty hard with those. Having [triple shot] and [nightmare weapon] makes for a nice addition, too.

Obviously, you can use another elite or another preparation, but when running at 9 expertise or less, you run out of energy pretty fast if you use Sloth too many times. With this combo, if you have Expert Focus up at all times, you won't run out of energy.

The only downside is the rather long time you need to wait between attacks. But this is a spike-ey build...

[Tyla]

The only reason i find [lightning reflexes] + [dwarven stability] usefull is for the 75% block that LR provides. Very handy if you find yourself the target of a melee enemy or if you use a shortbow.

I found that EXTREMELY useful in DoA. As an ES Ranger anyway, because my Warrior isn't there and I need a Mallyx statue, and I didn't feel like BHA'ing the place up.

[Orange Milk]

@ Adja1005, DM lasts longer than its recharge with Dwarf rank 1, and exactly as long as it's recharge with no rank, so DS is not needed in combo with it at all, use that spot for something more usefull.

And yes, DS + LR is EXTREAMLY USEFULL, 20+ seconds of 33% IAS AND 75% block thats some leet stuff there, most of my solo farm builds revolve around that combo plus Whirlin D.

Originally Posted by Targren
Now, alas, I have decided to finally finish Nightfall, and I find that it is not generally a good idea since having FIVE demons call using CttT at once is really really bad

To maximise your damage try to get ahold of a Bow grip of Deamon Slaying, 20% more damage is more gooder/

@ Tyla, so I'm not the only person who ever killed Maylix with a Ranger and NOT useing Ursan, good to know, I was trapping though.

[Tyla]

@ Tyla, so I'm not the only person who ever killed Maylix with a Ranger and NOT useing Ursan, good to know, I was trapping though.
Infuriating Heat and blow him up with physicals is the way to go!

Oh, and D-Shotting his spirit skill. :ninja:

[Badenstein]

When I want to feel all powerful and such, I use a build with [prepared shot] + [expert focus] and [sloth hunter's shot]

You hit pretty hard with those.

I have been playing with these, and with the right bow, and winnowing, I have hit for 80 plus damage many times. I have a penetration and expertise mod on my compound bow.

[Melek]

If you want big single target damage you can't beat the re-buffed [penetrating attack]/[sundering attack]. The bar i have been using to great effect almost everywhere is:
[penetrating attack][sundering attack][prepared shot][savage shot][flail][read the wind][ebon vanguard assassin support][sunspear rebirth signet] (use 14 expertise and as much marksmanship as you like, and a zealous flatbow)

[Orange Milk]

Originally Posted by Badenstein
I have a penetration and expertise mod on my compound bow

WTH is that? Never heard of an Expertise Mod.

@ Tyla, Ofcourse I had D-Shot too, had traps, D-Shot and Blood Ritual for the monks durning the inital phases of the mission.

[Badenstein]

I will post a screenie later, but it adds +1 Marksmanship about 15%-17% of the time. I forget the exact percentage.

[Targren]

I will post a screenie later, but it adds +1 Marksmanship about 15%-17% of the time. I forget the exact percentage.

Wouldn't that be a Marksmanship mod, not Expertise?

[Badenstein]

The bow i use with that build.

http://www.wadsnet.com/~jickes/AlsBow.bmp

[Elia]

Try to get a new one from collectors or weaponsmith.

[poasiods]

I personally wouldn't recommend [nightmare weapon] [triple shot] combo. There are much better ways to use two slots than for a spike which can only be executed once every 10 seconds.

[penetrating attack] [sundering attack] [sloth hunter's shot] [triple shot] [glass arrows]

Is a solid way to go, imo. I'd personally lay off of Forked Arrow, seeing you'll probably receive some number of enchantments for protection if you've gone so far to fight Torment Creatures.

Edit: Changed Dual Shot to Slot Hunter's Shot.

[Div]

Adding triple shot makes you superspiker!

[chesterocks7]

When I want to feel all powerful and such, I use a build with [prepared shot] + [expert focus] and [sloth hunter's shot]

You hit pretty hard with those. Having [triple shot] and [nightmare weapon] makes for a nice addition, too.

Obviously, you can use another elite or another preparation, but when running at 9 expertise or less, you run out of energy pretty fast if you use Sloth too many times. With this combo, if you have Expert Focus up at all times, you won't run out of energy.

The only downside is the rather long time you need to wait between attacks. But this is a spike-ey build...
why would you ever run at 9 or less expertise? unless youre running a build that spreads your attributes to 4 or more different areas, you should never have 9 or less expertise. it is the ranger primary, and an amazing primary at that. most of my builds i run with either 16 marksmanship or wilderness survival depending on my elite, and 13 expertise. if my elite is expertise i have 16 expertise with 12 or so of my other main attribute. for a spike build you should run 16 marks, or less if you dont like sup runes, and at least 11 expertise, and thats only if you absolutely must put points somewhere else. number one rule of being a ranger is that expertise is a ranger's best friend. if you spend enough points in it, you shouldnt have to bring energy management skills.

[poasiods]

why would you ever run at 9 or less expertise? unless youre running a build that spreads your attributes to 4 or more different areas, you should never have 9 or less expertise. it is the ranger primary, and an amazing primary at that. most of my builds i run with either 16 marksmanship or wilderness survival depending on my elite, and 13 expertise. if my elite is expertise i have 16 expertise with 12 or so of my other main attribute. for a spike build you should run 16 marks, or less if you dont like sup runes, and at least 11 expertise, and thats only if you absolutely must put points somewhere else. number one rule of being a ranger is that expertise is a ranger's best friend. if you spend enough points in it, you shouldnt have to bring energy management skills.

...Why would you put in 16 into Expertise? Majority of ranger skills (those costing 5 to 10 mana) get cut off at 14 Expertise. I highly doubt you'll be spamming enough skills costing 15 to 25 mana to really be affected by the two extra points of energy you'll be saving.

Specing so heavy on Expertise and Marksmanship will leave you with little to invest in Wilderness Survival for self-healing, which means you won't be able to take the pressure of healing off of your monks as much as you should. Also, each of those attribute rune you add onto your ranger means one fewer Rune of Vitae for you. I can't even begin to mention the horror of superior attribute runes.

[Orange Milk]

Originally Posted by Badenstein
The bow i use with that build.



I suggest upping your mods, when the 20 sundering and the +1 marks hit on the same attack I'm sure there is much bonus Damage so increase your chances of that happening.

Both those mods top out at a 20% chance, so try to get ahold of some Max mods like those.

ALSO, Max Damge for a Bow is 15-28, yours is falling seveal points less than that, Try to get a Max Dmage Bow.

Add all that up and your bow should end up something like this:
Canges from your bow are in bold

Sundering Composite Bow of Marksmanship
Piercing Dmg: 15-28 (Requires 9 Marksmanship)
Damage + 15% (While Health is above 50%)
Marksmanship +1 (20% chance while using skills)
Armor penetration +20% (Chance: 20%)
Customized for Badenstein Dmg 20%

Get a bow like that and your Damage will increase by AT LEAST 10hp on auto attacks(I did a tad of math in my head is all) and even more with the use of Attack skills and the full force of the mods.

Horn bows are nice too due to the fat they have 10% Armor pen inherintly inscibed in them off the bat, with the smae refire rate as your composite bow.

Why would you put in 16 into Expertise

Stance duration I suppose, or more Dmg from Glass Arrows or Point Blank Shot and it's twin.

[farmerfez]

Use triple shot and nightmare weapon :)

[chesterocks7]

...Why would you put in 16 into Expertise? Majority of ranger skills (those costing 5 to 10 mana) get cut off at 14 Expertise. I highly doubt you'll be spamming enough skills costing 15 to 25 mana to really be affected by the two extra points of energy you'll be saving.

Specing so heavy on Expertise and Marksmanship will leave you with little to invest in Wilderness Survival for self-healing, which means you won't be able to take the pressure of healing off of your monks as much as you should. Also, each of those attribute rune you add onto your ranger means one fewer Rune of Vitae for you. I can't even begin to mention the horror of superior attribute runes.
i said i do 16 expertise if my elite is tied to expertise. no a ranger should never need 16 expertise for normal skills. and with the two runes you can lower expertise and marks to around 14 and 12 respectively, leaving you enough attribute points for troll. most monks will heal you regardless of whether or not you try and heal yourself, unless you specifically tell them not to. and if you are actually playing a ranger, you shouldn't NEED that +10 health from the rune of vitae. with a sup attribute rune, a sup vigor rune, a minor attribute rune, and two vitae runes, your health will be -5 what it would be without any runes or insignias. rangers are also the best survival class, so if you are playing the way you should, there should be no question about sacrificing 20 health for 4 attribute levels.

[poasiods]

i said i do 16 expertise if my elite is tied to expertise. no a ranger should never need 16 expertise for normal skills. and with the two runes you can lower expertise and marks to around 14 and 12 respectively, leaving you enough attribute points for troll. most monks will heal you regardless of whether or not you try and heal yourself, unless you specifically tell them not to. and if you are actually playing a ranger, you shouldn't NEED that +10 health from the rune of vitae. with a sup attribute rune, a sup vigor rune, a minor attribute rune, and two vitae runes, your health will be -5 what it would be without any runes or insignias. rangers are also the best survival class, so if you are playing the way you should, there should be no question about sacrificing 20 health for 4 attribute levels.

I don't know where your getting sacrificing 20 health for 4 attribute levels. Superior attribute runes subtract 75 health from you for three attribute levels.

In my opinion, none of Expertise elite skills benefit enough from going to 16 instead of 14 to justify sacrificing 75 life. Right, Rangers do have best armor against elements and enough survival skills, but there's only so much you can do with that little life against all the bull they throw you later in Nightfall.

By repeatedly tossing around the phrase, "if you're playing ranger as you should," I certainly hope you don't mean standing outside the aggro bubble and shooting with a longbow or even a flatbow until your party gets wiped and rebirthing them all. I don't know what kind of builds you run, but having such low health will attract too many enemies to you and put you on a very high chance of dying from spikes if you're even remotely familiar with how to play your role in a party. You'll either put unnecessary strain on the monks or end up packing too many survival skills to be any effective at all.

Another role of rangers which people seem to grossly overlook is that they can actually make decent sponges to soak up damage. Attracting enemy melee fighters breaking into your casters' ranks to keep casters working or getting close to enemy casters to take half the elemental damage others would normally take (as well as making it easier to interrupt) is something ranger should be responsible for.

Although I usually do prefer Runes of Vitae, minor attribute runes are much more useful than major attribute runes. See your nearest Rune Trader and see which ones people prefer.

[chesterocks7]

I don't know where your getting sacrificing 20 health for 4 attribute levels. Superior attribute runes subtract 75 health from you for three attribute levels.

In my opinion, none of Expertise elite skills benefit enough from going to 16 instead of 14 to justify sacrificing 75 life. Right, Rangers do have best armor against elements and enough survival skills, but there's only so much you can do with that little life against all the bull they throw you later in Nightfall.

By repeatedly tossing around the phrase, "if you're playing ranger as you should," I certainly hope you don't mean standing outside the aggro bubble and shooting with a longbow or even a flatbow until your party gets wiped and rebirthing them all. I don't know what kind of builds you run, but having such low health will attract too many enemies to you and put you on a very high chance of dying from spikes if you're even remotely familiar with how to play your role in a party. You'll either put unnecessary strain on the monks or end up packing too many survival skills to be any effective at all.

Another role of rangers which people seem to grossly overlook is that they can actually make decent sponges to soak up damage. Attracting enemy melee fighters breaking into your casters' ranks to keep casters working or getting close to enemy casters to take half the elemental damage others would normally take (as well as making it easier to interrupt) is something ranger should be responsible for.

Although I usually do prefer Runes of Vitae, minor attribute runes are much more useful than major attribute runes. See your nearest Rune Trader and see which ones people prefer.

yeah and see how many ppl eat at mcdonalds a day, does that make mcdonalds good food?

first off, the sacrificing 20 health for 4 attribute levels comes from the rune setup i mentioned in my post, sup attribute run, sup vigor rune, 2 runes of vitae, minor attribute rune. 2 attribute runes in place of two runes of vitae. yes overall without the attribute runes you will have about 95 more health, but you are a RANGER not a WARRIOR and if you play smart instead of sitting in one spot and firing away while soaking up dmg, you shouldnt need the extra health.

if youre having trouble soaking up the later nightfall areas, you may want to look into changing your builds or your class, cause if you play the ranger right with a good team setup, those areas are not any harder than any of the other more elite areas.

i use every type of popular ranger build out there, plus personal builds i come up with, use mostly a recurve bow, and always have a sup attribute rune and minor attribute rune. i have 505 health and have absolutely no trouble staying alive.

taking two defensive skills can make you an efficient "secondary tank" as you seemed to think rangers were meant for. throw dirt and whirling defense. with 12+ expeertise you can keep those two up indefinitely, completely protecting you from melee dmg, since you mentioned tanking melee fighters for your spellcasters. and if you are trying to tank the elemental dmg, the extra 95 or so health is not going to make much of a difference in those elite areas.

the popular belief that sup runes are evil and minor runes are so great does not hold true if you know your role in the party and play smart. the extra points to enhance your skills is far more important than having i bigger healthbar.

[poasiods]

first off, the sacrificing 20 health for 4 attribute levels comes from the rune setup i mentioned in my post, sup attribute run, sup vigor rune, 2 runes of vitae, minor attribute rune. 2 attribute runes in place of two runes of vitae. yes overall without the attribute runes you will have about 95 more health, but you are a RANGER not a WARRIOR and if you play smart instead of sitting in one spot and firing away while soaking up dmg, you shouldnt need the extra health.

taking two defensive skills can make you an efficient "secondary tank" as you seemed to think rangers were meant for. throw dirt and whirling defense. with 12+ expeertise you can keep those two up indefinitely, completely protecting you from melee dmg, since you mentioned tanking melee fighters for your spellcasters. and if you are trying to tank the elemental dmg, the extra 95 or so health is not going to make much of a difference in those elite areas.


Redirecting you where you wandered off, you're not exchanging 20 life for 4 attribute points - you're losing 75 to 85 life for using a superior attribute rune instead of minor attribute rune or a Rune of Vitae. Having 100 more health (20 percent extra) certainly does make a difference in most situations.

Also, you can't keep up Throw Dirt and Whirling Defenses up indefinitely. You can spam them pretty frequently to certainly efficiency if, for some reason, the mob decides not to Wild Blow it out of you or purge blind as you apply it. Exchanging two extra seconds of Throw Dirt and Whirling Defenses in exchange for 75 life is not worth it - it is much more efficient to keep the extra health.

Anyhow, returning to the original issue, no matter how smart you think you may be playing, losing 75 health in exchange for two extra attributes in Expertise is not a smart trade for any build.

[milkflopance]

Sundering Composite Bow of Marksmanship
Piercing Dmg: 15-28 (Requires 9 Marksmanship)
Damage + 15% (While Health is above 50%)
Marksmanship +1 (20% chance while using skills)
Armor penetration +20% (Chance: 20%)
Customized for Badenstein Dmg 20%

Get a bow like that and your Damage will increase by AT LEAST 10hp on auto attacks(I did a tad of math in my head is all) and even more with the use of Attack skills and the full force of the mods.

Horn bows are nice too due to the fat they have 10% Armor pen inherintly inscibed in them off the bat, with the smae refire rate as your composite bow.


Horn bows have the slowest refire rate out of any type of bow, but share the range of a composite (which is a recurve).

The slow refire rate also makes them bad for preperations such as [glass arrows].

The Marksmanship mod will only work while using skills, and wont really do all that much for you. I'd rather take a +30 (or +29, they're cheaper and the 1 hp wont make a big difference) myself, as the extra damage from a +1 in Marksmanship every 5 skills is negligible.

I'd also recommend a vampiric bow string over sundering, you'll get a lot more out of it.

[Orange Milk]

@ milkflopance

Read post above mine that I quaoted please and you will see that I was explaining to the poster how to maximize the bow he displayed.

telling him to run Vamp/Fort like everyone else doesn't help either, ther are better ways to optimize for max damage.

.3 difference in refire rate is "negligable" as you would say.

[Bowstring Badass]

Besides the 10% armor pen that you get from it kind of makes it worth the extra .3 imo.

[chesterocks7]

Redirecting you where you wandered off, you're not exchanging 20 life for 4 attribute points - you're losing 75 to 85 life for using a superior attribute rune instead of minor attribute rune or a Rune of Vitae. Having 100 more health (20 percent extra) certainly does make a difference in most situations.

Also, you can't keep up Throw Dirt and Whirling Defenses up indefinitely. You can spam them pretty frequently to certainly efficiency if, for some reason, the mob decides not to Wild Blow it out of you or purge blind as you apply it. Exchanging two extra seconds of Throw Dirt and Whirling Defenses in exchange for 75 life is not worth it - it is much more efficient to keep the extra health.

Anyhow, returning to the original issue, no matter how smart you think you may be playing, losing 75 health in exchange for two extra attributes in Expertise is not a smart trade for any build.

you obviously didnt read my post because i clearly said you would have 95 extra health. but anyways, yeah 100 more health will keep you alive longer, but 4 extra attribute levels can affect your entire skill bar. about the throw dirt and whirling defense, there are plenty of other skills you could take that will are useful in any number of situations. and you must not be playing your builds with much intelligence if you cant survive long with less than 600 health. ive never had any problems surviving and ive always used sup runes. but you are just as entitled to your opinion as i am.

[zling]

Lightbringer's Gaze+high Lightbringer rank is the way to go...
the build itself is secondary, as there are plenty of options...

[Grammar]

If you don't run Prepared Shot: [sloth hunters shot]

If you do run Prepared Shot: [penetrating attack]+[sundering attack]

[poasiods]

you obviously didnt read my post because i clearly said you would have 95 extra health. but anyways, yeah 100 more health will keep you alive longer, but 4 extra attribute levels can affect your entire skill bar. about the throw dirt and whirling defense, there are plenty of other skills you could take that will are useful in any number of situations. and you must not be playing your builds with much intelligence if you cant survive long with less than 600 health. ive never had any problems surviving and ive always used sup runes. but you are just as entitled to your opinion as i am.

Of course, I obviously didn't read your post but somehow managed to add retorts to several points you made in it.

I was just pointing out whatever amount of logic you had failed to make much argument at all. First, you try to make it sound as if the health loss from superior runes isn't fatal at all by saying that it is an exchange of 4 attribute points for 20 health, as if extra Runes of Vitae will only be present if a superior attribute rune is added. Then, you admit it takes off 95 health only to duff it by saying "but you are a RANGER not a WARRIOR and if you play smart instead of sitting in one spot and firing away while soaking up dmg, you shouldnt need the extra health."

Then, it looked like you were addressing what you incorrectly said about Whirling Defense and Throw Dirt, but I must've been leading myself on, as you hopped straight into that wagon about using others number of skills without mentioning anything else about those two. I'd like to hear about these other skills which will so greatly benefit me by being at 16 attribute points instead of 14.

There is nothing you can do with 16 expertise when you receive a large spike of armor-ignoring damage, such as from Energy Burn or Energy Surge, which are are impossible to block, kite, or even reduce the damage from. Whatever you do to play smart, there's only so much you can do against these sort of inconveniences. These attributes may "affect my entire skill bar" in certain situations, but like I mentioned already, the benefits are bare minimum and don't reap anywhere near sufficient products to compensate for 75 health loss.

Also, I'm not sure where you pulled the bit about me going through much trouble to survive with under 600 health. I used to satisfy myself with around 500 health until I figured out extra health is more beneficial.

[milkflopance]

@ milkflopance

Read post above mine that I quaoted please and you will see that I was explaining to the poster how to maximize the bow he displayed.

I know you were, I was too, although i probably didn't make it very clear.


As for hornbow damage, I found this:

http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2881762&postcount=1

Conclusion
In virtually all tests the horn bow is outperformed by the other bows; only in a spike or in the situation of using Quick Shot and Needling Shot together does the horn bow do more damage

That's quite old though, and doesn't mention the buffed [sundering attack] and [penetrating attack], which might work well with one because of the fixed activation time.

[Tyla]

That's quite old though, and doesn't mention the buffed [sundering attack] and [penetrating attack], which might work well with one because of the fixed activation time.

That's why I'm glad I didn't get rid of my Rangerspike bow. :cool:

[chesterocks7]

Of course, I obviously didn't read your post but somehow managed to add retorts to several points you made in it.

I was just pointing out whatever amount of logic you had failed to make much argument at all. First, you try to make it sound as if the health loss from superior runes isn't fatal at all by saying that it is an exchange of 4 attribute points for 20 health, as if extra Runes of Vitae will only be present if a superior attribute rune is added. Then, you admit it takes off 95 health only to duff it by saying "but you are a RANGER not a WARRIOR and if you play smart instead of sitting in one spot and firing away while soaking up dmg, you shouldnt need the extra health."

Then, it looked like you were addressing what you incorrectly said about Whirling Defense and Throw Dirt, but I must've been leading myself on, as you hopped straight into that wagon about using others number of skills without mentioning anything else about those two. I'd like to hear about these other skills which will so greatly benefit me by being at 16 attribute points instead of 14.

There is nothing you can do with 16 expertise when you receive a large spike of armor-ignoring damage, such as from Energy Burn or Energy Surge, which are are impossible to block, kite, or even reduce the damage from. Whatever you do to play smart, there's only so much you can do against these sort of inconveniences. These attributes may "affect my entire skill bar" in certain situations, but like I mentioned already, the benefits are bare minimum and don't reap anywhere near sufficient products to compensate for 75 health loss.

Also, I'm not sure where you pulled the bit about me going through much trouble to survive with under 600 health. I used to satisfy myself with around 500 health until I figured out extra health is more beneficial.

thank you for repeating two paragraphs of what i already said, that really helped your argument. im not going to touch the first two paragraphs you wrote, because all you did was repeat what i said.

look at the wilderness survival skills and believe it or not, there are quite a number of skills that will benefit you more by being at 16 instead of 14. why do you think they made it possible to go up to 16 if there would be no point to it? and even if you wont believe that, wrap your head around this. with a sup attribute rune, you can actually lower that 16 down to a 14! leaving you able to raise an entire other attribue up 4 or 5 levels! so you can have your troll give you +7 health regen while still having high expertise and marksmanship. so you can either keep 75 extra health, or have the ability to raise an entire attribute up enough so that you can heal yourself and use any other skills in that attribute effectively.

so when you get hit with those spells that you cant block, you have troll or healing springs to counter the health lost, and you still can use other wilderness survival skills effectively. the extra 4 levels dont have to be in just one attribute, with a sup attribute rune, you can raise 3 different attributes relatively high without losing their efficiency.

im not sure why exactly you cling on to that extra 75 health so much, but perhaps you should drop being a ranger and take up being a warrior.

[milkflopance]

wall o' text

im not sure why exactly you cling on to that extra 75 health so much, but perhaps you should drop being a ranger and take up being a warrior.

Because 75 health is worth more to most people than 2 extra points of energy saved on a 15 energy skill, +2 bonus damage, or 2 seconds longer poison duration.

why do you think they made it possible to go up to 16 if there would be no point to it?

They also made skills such as [mending], [defy pain] and [endure pain]. That doesn't mean you should use them.

[chesterocks7]

Because 75 health is worth more to most people than 2 extra points of energy saved on a 15 energy skill, +2 bonus damage, or 2 seconds longer poison duration.

2 extra points saved on top of the 6 or 7 already saved, +2 bonus dmg on top of the +16, 2 seconds longer poison on top of the 7 seconds already there.

They also made skills such as [mending], [defy pain] and [endure pain]. That doesn't mean you should use them.
there are very few skills in this game that are absolutely useless. mending is a common skill in quite a number of builds for various professions. endure pain is a great skill when you are first starting out and dont have better skills yet. ill admit, ive never seen defy pain used. but skills are also different from one another, runes of greater attribute points are just a step up from runes of less attribute points. it is completely a matter of preference whether you prefer that 75 extra health, or the boost to all your different skills.

[milkflopance]

2 extra points saved on top of the 6 or 7 already saved, +2 bonus dmg on top of the +16, 2 seconds longer poison on top of the 7 seconds already there.



2 seconds longer poison isn't going to help, you'll be reapplying it every hit anyway (unless you're planning to spread it, in which case you'll have about a 9-10 second duration and a poisonous weapon).

The 2 extra points of energy is only on 15 energy skills (assuming you're boosting it up to 16), which will probably be [apply poison], [pin down] and [broad head arrow], which are all non-spammable skills.

As for the bonus damage, the extra hits you can get in before dieing because of the extra health will probably surpass the +2 per attack.

More health also gives a monk more time to react before you die, and helps prevent spikes from being so effective.


there are very few skills in this game that are absolutely useless.


No, there are. That's not the point anyway. The point is that they are there even though they're bad. Same goes for runes.


mending is a common skill in quite a number of builds for various professions. endure pain is a great skill when you are first starting out and dont have better skills yet.
Mending is a common skill in quite a number of bad builds. Endure pain is a great skill for wasting a slot, and helping the other team spike you when it ends.

[chesterocks7]

As for the bonus damage, the extra hits you can get in before dieing because of the extra health will probably surpass the +2 per attack.
if you play smart then you shouldnt go into every fight wondering how you can do the most dmg before you die. rangers have lots of survival skills, so you shouldnt be dying so often. those extra points can be put into attributes with survival skills so that you arent just trying to cram in the most dmg in between deaths. besides, dp kinda destroys your whole theory there.

More health also gives a monk more time to react before you die, and helps prevent spikes from being so effective.
do you solely rely on your monks to keep you alive? troll unguent is probably the best, non-monk, healing skill in the game. with those extra attribute levels you can add them to wilderness survival to take a lot of pressure off your monks.

Mending is a common skill in quite a number of bad builds.
mending works great in 55 builds, a variety of running builds, and different bonding builds. do you think because a few stupid wammos think theyre gods because of it that its a horrible skill?

Endure pain is a great skill for wasting a slot, and helping the other team spike you when it ends.
like i said before, endure pain is great when you are just starting out to give you that last second chance to get healed before dying. do you think that every skill thats worth something has to be useful in elite area farming?

[Tyla]

if you play smart then you shouldnt go into every fight wondering how you can do the most dmg before you die. rangers have lots of survival skills, so you shouldnt be dying so often. those extra points can be put into attributes with survival skills so that you arent just trying to cram in the most dmg in between deaths. besides, dp kinda destroys your whole theory there.
Wasting skills on survivability is bad, unless you're built for splitting aswell, and that's more of a PvP thing.

Utility slots, however are good.


do you solely rely on your monks to keep you alive? troll unguent is probably the best, non-monk, healing skill in the game. with those extra attribute levels you can add them to wilderness survival to take a lot of pressure off your monks.
No, it isn't. I don't solely rely on my Monks, but I bring utility skills that benefit not only me but the entire party.

Regeneration is only good versus pressure. And the best non-monk healing skill is in the ritualist skill lines.


mending works great in 55 builds, a variety of running builds, and different bonding builds. do you think because a few stupid wammos think theyre gods because of it that its a horrible skill?
It is a horrible skill. Removes one pip of energy regeneration, ten energy to use it, only benefits one person.

It's only good in 55hp builds, and that's it. If you want a good party-wide pressure removal skill, use Recouperation.

like i said before, endure pain is great when you are just starting out to give you that last second chance to get healed before dying. do you think that every skill thats worth something has to be useful in elite area farming?
It's not good though. If I wanted a health buff like that, I'd be better off with something like [[Vital Blessing] which can be maintained.

[chesterocks7]

Wasting skills on survivability is bad, unless you're built for splitting aswell, and that's more of a PvP thing.

Utility slots, however are good.
it depends on your play style. i like to bring a variety of skills that will work for different situations, and that can keep me alive if things go bad. unless of course im doing a specific type of run or filling a very narrow role in the group. but it all depends on how you like to play.

No, it isn't. I don't solely rely on my Monks, but I bring utility skills that benefit not only me but the entire party.
there are not many ranger skills that benefit the whole group, unless you are talking about your secondary profession's skills. if that is the case, the extra attribute points can boost the effectiveness of those skills.

Regeneration is only good versus pressure. And the best non-monk healing skill is in the ritualist skill lines.
regeneration is not only good against pressure. no, it wont save you from a spike on its own, but it can help you enough in between taking dmg to survive long enough for your monks to help you. and imo thats better because those extra attribute points will help other skills of the same line. and i forgot about the rit class, they can be almost as good as monks. i was more thinking the martial classes.

It is a horrible skill. Removes one pip of energy regeneration, ten energy to use it, only benefits one person.

It's only good in 55hp builds, and that's it. If you want a good party-wide pressure removal skill, use Recouperation.
it is not a good skill for general usage, but it is very effective for 55 builds, running builds, and bonders. using mending on a ranger running build is great because the running skills block attacks, and with mending on, the few attacks that get through can be recovered from without having to stop moving. and all bonder skills only affect one person, so i dont really get why you said that it only affects one person.

It's not good though. If I wanted a health buff like that, I'd be better off with something like [[Vital Blessing] which can be maintained.
i said that endure pain is good for low level characters. vital blessing isnt as good a choice because it is an upkeep enchantment, so you have -1 energy regen, and it costs 10 energy. a low-level character has low energy to begin with, so -1 energy regen and 10 energy to cast can really drain a beginners energy fast. especially if its a warrior primary who only has 2 energy regen to begin with.

[milkflopance]

there are not many ranger skills that benefit the whole group, unless you are talking about your secondary profession's skills. if that is the case, the extra attribute points can boost the effectiveness of those skills.

Skills such as [broad head arrow] and [distracting shot] benefit the party. They help take pressure off the team.


regeneration is not only good against pressure. no, it wont save you from a spike on its own, but it can help you enough in between taking dmg to survive long enough for your monks to help you.

Troll Unguent takes 3 seconds to cast. If it takes the monks that long to start helping, you'll probably be dead.


Using mending on a ranger running build is great because the running skills block attacks, and with mending on, the few attacks that get through can be recovered from without having to stop moving.

+3 regen is not a lot. It's also a complete waste of attribute points.


all bonder skills only affect one person, so i dont really get why you said that it only affects one person.

Tyla said that it only affects one person because it only affects one person. What have other skills got to do with it?

a low-level character has low energy to begin with, so -1 energy regen and 10 energy to cast can really drain a beginners energy fast.

Warriors start with 20 energy, that's all they need. I hope you're not suggesting that people use radiant insignias later on.

[poasiods]

Chesterocks7, perhaps you should taking up some different activities, such as thinking of more clever insults than telling me to drop ranger class, or getting that lazy pinky finger of yours to tap the Shift button every once in a while.

Believe it or not, it takes some effort to type several paragraphs while attempting to have proper grammar and defining my arguments as well as adding retorts to your "perhaps you should play smarter" comments. It's rather disheartening to see a block of nonsense you throw out everytime.

Do realize this started as a question to whether it is effective at all to add 16 points into Expertise. Seeing we've come so far, I'd like to see which skills will benefit you so greatly to have 16 in Expertise instead of 14.

I also see you wrote something about having 16 points in Wilderness Survival out of nowhere. Have you looked up the stats before posting it? Troll Unguent is maintained at +10 regeneration. Healing Spring heals for 30 more health over ten seconds.

Then, you contradicted yourself by making an argument on using Troll Unguent to take pressure off of monks. I recall having made the same argument last, except you brushed it off to the side, saying monks will heal you anyways.

If you could actually play ranger as resourcefully as you claim, you should have no problem managing yourself - even if some of your skills are slightly ineffective compared to what you could have received with few extra attribute points.

[Teh [prefession]-zorz]

Mending is worthless. Benefits only 1 person, 10 en, -1 en for crappy +3?

[chesterocks7]

Chesterocks7, perhaps you should taking up some different activities, such as thinking of more clever insults than telling me to drop ranger class, or getting that lazy pinky finger of yours to tap the Shift button every once in a while.
personal attacks are the last resort when your argument is failing, so ill accept that as submission. i dont use my lazy pinky finger because i lost both my pinky's in a tragic accident involving a chainsaw and scantily clad women. don't believe me? tough shit. this is a cyber-argument.

Believe it or not, it takes some effort to type several paragraphs while attempting to have proper grammar and defining my arguments as well as adding retorts to your "perhaps you should play smarter" comments. It's rather disheartening to see a block of nonsense you throw out everytime.
well congratulations. you can put out effort to argue with someone over a video game while maintaining good grammar at the same time. you must be like a college student or something to be so talented.

Do realize this started as a question to whether it is effective at all to add 16 points into Expertise. Seeing we've come so far, I'd like to see which skills will benefit you so greatly to have 16 in Expertise instead of 14.
glass arrows. at 14 they last 33 secs with +19 dmg and 19 secs bleeding if blocked. at 16 they last 37 secs with +21 dmg and 21 secs bleeding.

whirling defense. it moves the duration from 19 to 21 secs, and two seconds can be vital in the middle of a fight.

throw dirt. changes duration from 14 to 16. same concept.

zojun's shot. changes dmg from +38 to +42. more dmg is always better.

I also see you wrote something about having 16 points in Wilderness Survival out of nowhere. Have you looked up the stats before posting it? Troll Unguent is maintained at +10 regeneration. Healing Spring heals for 30 more health over ten seconds.
you obviously didnt read it well because ive only ever said i use 16 WS when i have an elite under that attribute. i wouldnt raise my WS to 16 just for troll, that should be obvious. and yes, healing spring heals for more health, but it is a trap so you have to stay in that area, something thats not always possible, unless you are trying to be a tank. i really dont think i need to argue that troll is a better heal, its rare to see anyone bring healing springs, and you seem to follow popular opinion.

Then, you contradicted yourself by making an argument on using Troll Unguent to take pressure off of monks. I recall having made the same argument last, except you brushed it off to the side, saying monks will heal you anyways.
actually if you read what you wrote, you were only making an argument on having low health putting unnecesary strain on the monks, not on using troll. i use troll to take some pressure off the monks, although they will heal me regardless.

If you could actually play ranger as resourcefully as you claim, you should have no problem managing yourself - even if some of your skills are slightly ineffective compared to what you could have received with few extra attribute points.
i could manage myself just fine. but i dont feel the need, because i prefer having the extra attribute points over the extra health. like ive said before, its all a matter of preference. if you think its anything then there is no point in arguing anymore.

[chesterocks7]

Skills such as [broad head arrow] and [distracting shot] benefit the party. They help take pressure off the team.
i said there arent many, not none at all.


Troll Unguent takes 3 seconds to cast. If it takes the monks that long to start helping, you'll probably be dead.
you shouldnt wait to use troll until you get spiked, its useful to cast even if youre not taking much dmg, if you know the enemy is spiking.


+3 regen is not a lot. It's also a complete waste of attribute points.
the only build i said it is really useful for on a ranger is a running build, in which case there are plenty of attribute points to spare.


Tyla said that it only affects one person because it only affects one person. What have other skills got to do with it?
because the only build i mentioned that you would use it for group purposes was the bonder build, in which all the bonding skills only affect one person.


Warriors start with 20 energy, that's all they need. I hope you're not suggesting that people use radiant insignias later on.
no, any warrior that uses radiant insignias is an idiot. my point was that with 1 energy regen, having any skill that costs 10 energy is not a good idea. unless you are using a zealous weapon which also is kinda ridiculous for a warrior.

[poasiods]

personal attacks are the last resort when your argument is failing, so ill accept that as submission. i dont use my lazy pinky finger because i lost both my pinky's in a tragic accident involving a chainsaw and scantily clad women. don't believe me? tough shit. this is a cyber-argument.

well congratulations. you can put out effort to argue with someone over a video game while maintaining good grammar at the same time. you must be like a college student or something to be so talented.

I take it serious enough to try and use proper grammar, you take it serious enough to let me know you think I'm showing signs of cyber-submission.

I'm sorry to hear about your pinkies, but it was more of a retort to your constant volley of "you're not playing ranger as smartly as I am, which is the universal key to supporting my argument," and lack of capitalizations, the latter of which shouldn't be an issue now. I don't believe it to be anything close to personal insult but take it however you want to.

I don't know about losing the argument, but I've always seen greater majority of people taking same stance with what I'm saying (even in this thread) and will continue to if I asked others now. Of course, that can all be managed by the fact that majority does not rule in Guild Wars and that they simply aren't playing as smart are you are. There really is nothing to argue about.

At least you went from saying
if you are playing the way you should, there should be no question about sacrificing 20 health for 4 attribute levels.
to
like ive said before, its all a matter of preference.

[graverobber2]

no, any warrior that uses radiant insignias is an idiot. my point was that with 1 energy regen, having any skill that costs 10 energy is not a good idea. unless you are using a zealous weapon which also is kinda ridiculous for a warrior.
that depends on your build

[Tyla]

i said there arent many, not none at all.This is false.

Ranges are a midline class built to support the party, with interrupts, traps (To a lesser extent), and conditions.

Distracting Shot should be on any bow Ranger's bar. And in PvE, Broad Head Arrow is simply put, the king of PvE elite skills.

you shouldnt wait to use troll until you get spiked, its useful to cast even if youre not taking much dmg, if you know the enemy is spiking.
If the enemy is spiking health regeneration won't help.

the only build i said it is really useful for on a ranger is a running build, in which case there are plenty of attribute points to spare.
If you want regeneration, use something else. Even Healing Breeze is better for a regeneration job in terms of running.

because the only build i mentioned that you would use it for group purposes was the bonder build, in which all the bonding skills only affect one person.
As a bonder you would want to throw up more decent bonds such as Life Bond and Life Barrier, and not weak stuff like Mending.

Bonders are actually quite weak when it comes to enchant removal anyway, and I would rather take a proper Monk over it.



no, any warrior that uses radiant insignias is an idiot. my point was that with 1 energy regen, having any skill that costs 10 energy is not a good idea. unless you are using a zealous weapon which also is kinda ridiculous for a warrior.

Radiant Insignias, yes they are bad, but on a Warrior using something, say [[shock], it's more beneficial to run Radiants than run survival runes, because more Shock is good.

And Zealous weapons on a Warrior isn't rediculous. Depending on the bar you run, your bar would be energy intensive.

[Orange Milk]

I've totally lost track of the point of this thread.

ANYWAY......

@ chesterocks7 - Taking the time to use proper grammar makes your post seem well thought out, researched and educated as opposed to a ranting display of "I'm right, your wrong" unvalidated arguments. Even IF you make a valid point, no one will care because at first glance witht he naked eye your post looks like trash and it will be perceived as such.

Don't take that advice the wrong way, that's no "shot" at you or anything, I'm just trying to help.

Slightly on topic(maybe?) There are times I run Superior Runes (like any NM PvE place), But very rarly do I buff up an attribute to 16 when doing so. At that point there isn't too much to gain in just one attribute line, those 20 some odd points are better used elsewhere in most cases.

[Teutonic Paladin]

no, any warrior that uses radiant insignias is an idiot. my point was that with 1 energy regen, having any skill that costs 10 energy is not a good idea. unless you are using a zealous weapon which also is kinda ridiculous for a warrior.

So I heard Shock Axe is a pretty good build.

[Orange Milk]

^^

If you have to use Radiant Insignias while running Shock Axe, your not good at running Shock Axe

[chesterocks7]

@ chesterocks7 - Taking the time to use proper grammar makes your post seem well thought out, researched and educated as opposed to a ranting display of "I'm right, your wrong" unvalidated arguments. Even IF you make a valid point, no one will care because at first glance witht he naked eye your post looks like trash and it will be perceived as such.
i never knew that using bad grammar makes your argument null and void. that's a pretty high and mighty view if you instantly disregard what someone says because they dont use capitals. anyways, i dont give a shit about looking "well thought out, researched and educated" because we are simply discussing our opinions on strategies in a video game. ive said a hundred times this is all a matter of opinion so i dont care if you disregard my posts as trash. im not trying to convince anyone of anything, im simply discussing my view on things.

oh, by the way:
glance witht he naked eye
i guess what you said doesnt matter anyways.

[Damian979]

LOL more 3rd reich grammar raids, I love it.

Any way kd bunny thumping is good for those pesky cloning torment demons.

Conjure flame+ignite arrows makes a pretty good spike.

[MasterSasori]

The [glass arrows] and [conjure lightning] spike works fairly well. Use with [triple shot] and [favorable winds] and you have a decent spike.

[Vazze]

If you want big single target damage you can't beat the re-buffed [penetrating attack]/[sundering attack]. The bar i have been using to great effect almost everywhere is:
[penetrating attack][sundering attack][prepared shot][savage shot][flail][read the wind][ebon vanguard assassin support][sunspear rebirth signet] (use 14 expertise and as much marksmanship as you like, and a zealous flatbow)

I do not play my ranger too often but when I do, I use a very similar bar as melek .

[Darkpower Alchemist]

How can you speak of damage on a ranger without mentioning Sloth Hunter's Shot and Keen Arrow? If you have neither EoTN or NF, then by all means, dismiss them from your mind. In that case, your elite is your greatest friend.

The others are ok in comparison, but not like these two bad boys. As for radiant, get with the program. Rangers owned druids outfits for like...forever! Trappers need more energy. Warriors don't need a full radiant suit, yet radiants on the chest and legs make for solid energy in a small pool. Other classes depend on what you like to play with. All things have a reason and a purpose.

Don't dismiss something because you feel that "you" wouldn't use it. That's just being narrow sighted, and thus, possibly narrow minded.

As for expertise and the need for a 16 in the attribute...at one time, trapping needed 16 expertise by popular opinion, and still is useful, yet 14 is the breaking point for most attributes, so the answer would be doable, bu not neccessary.:cool:

[Gabriel Kimura]

The [glass arrows] and [conjure lightning] spike works fairly well. Use with [triple shot] and [favorable winds] and you have a decent spike.

I use something similar, for PvP I run:

Conjure Lightning
Glass Arrows
Dual Shot
Point Blank Shot
Zojun's Shot
Needling Shot
Rez

By the time dual, PBS and zojun's hit, 80% of enemies are below 50% and I haven't many enemies that can withstand a round of needling shot.

What kinds of runes are good with this build? What about insignias? I'm a bit bad with that stuff.

Nathan

[JR]

^^

If you have to use Radiant Insignias while running Shock Axe, your not good at running Shock Axe

A lot of very good Warriors use Radiant insignias for running Shock.

The whole 'you shouldn't be spamming Shock' arguement is silly, sometimes (particularly on splits) it will be beneficial.