Flatbow with barrage?

[Dras]

Ok, i've heard a flatbow is the only way to go with barrage. My question is, why? I figured a recurve bow is pretty much best for everything.

Not sure if it's relevant, but i'm running this atm:

[barrage][distracting shot][sloth hunter's shot][conjure flame][troll unguent][antidote signet][lightning reflexes][resurrection signet]

[Murmel]

Flatbow has the highest arc... Therefore they can hit more foes..

That's why they're best for barraging :) Though Longbows work fine aswell.

[Molock]

Flat bows also fire more rapidly...

[Dras]

that makes sense :D ty

[wetsparks]

Flatbow has the highest arc... Therefore they can hit more foes..

That's why they're best for barraging :) Though Longbows work fine aswell.um, what?

And I use a long bow, doesn't have the arc that a flat bow does so less chance that the enemy will move while the arrow is in the air and you will miss and the reload rate is close to the recharge rate of barrage.

[JR]

Flatbow has the highest arc... Therefore they can hit more foes..

No.

Barrage always hits targets adjacent to your target, regardless of which bow you use. For the purpose of how many enemies you hit it makes absolutely no difference.

[Longasc]

I use Zealous Flatbows

Fast Refire, Maximum Range, good energy gain. Sucks for interrupts, but excels at barraging mobs nonstop.
I see you use Conjure Fire. OK, then a fiery Flatbow... ;)

I usually go for 13 Expertise, then it costs only 2 energy to fire Barrage and you can just keep it rolling easily + maybe even combine it with some 10 Channeling and 9 expertise for Splinter-Barrage.

[Koricen]

It has the distance of a long bow and the speed of a short bow. The downside to the flatbow is it has the highest arc.

[Snograt]

[fw] + flatbow = what arc?

[XDeadboltX]

Why would firing more rapidly come into effect if you cant fire more than 1 per second due to the recharge of [[barrage] . Do you mean refire rate, or flight time, or something else....

[Yichi]

[fw] + flatbow = what arc?If this is a guarentee in your party such as in a B/P run, then yes a flatbow is your overall best option, provided the player knows where to put it and isnt stupid enough to forget to put it back down.

If there is no favorable winds, or someone put it in the frontline, or they forget to re-set it, then a recurve will be your best overall option for barrage.

[mrmango]

Recurve + FW > Flatbow + FW.

Is the range thing all that important to you guys? lol. more accuracy ftw.

[Vandall]

Recurve + FW > Flatbow + FW.

Is the range thing all that important to you guys? lol. more accuracy ftw.
disagreed. flatbow has the fastest refire rate, therefore you can keep spamming barrage. the point of FW is to keep the arc down, therefore making it much more accurate to use a flatbow.

[mrmango]

disagreed. flatbow has the fastest refire rate, therefore you can keep spamming barrage. the point of FW is to keep the arc down, therefore making it much more accurate to use a flatbow.Oops, forgot that part. Refire coincides with Barrage... almost. I guess it would make a difference, though if you take an IAS (pretty uncommon on a ranger I suppose) it won't make a different.

The fastest flight time appeals to me more, still.

[Vandall]

Oops, forgot that part. Refire coincides with Barrage... almost. I guess it would make a difference, though if you take an IAS (pretty uncommon on a ranger I suppose) it won't make a different.

The fastest flight time appeals to me more, still.
I wonder if you have actually tried a flatbow with FW. if you haven't, please test it out.

And imo, IAS not pretty common on a ranger. think people only use for specific builds actually (I believe there is a thread about the IAS topic that was created fairly recently. search button ftw?)

[Fay Vert]

Why would firing more rapidly come into effect if you cant fire more than 1 per second due to the recharge of [[barrage] . Do you mean refire rate, or flight time, or something else....

Barrage rate is limited by the bow rate. Flatbows have longest range, fastest fire rate and the downside of dodging (moving) foe should not be seen in a barrage situation, they should all be blocked/tanked/funnelled into one spot. If not, it doesn't matter what bow you use, your dps will be pants.

And Splinter>Conjure

[Grammar]

[flatbow] Refire coincides with Barrage... almost.

Good thing you added the "almost" part, because the flatbow's refire rate most certainly does NOT sync up with Barrage's refire rate.
A flatbow (2.0 sec.) is slightly too fast for Barrage's refire, while a recurve bow (2.4 sec.) is slightly too slow. Barrage's refire rate falls somewhere in between (somewhere between 2.1 and 2.2 seconds I believe).

So, assuming you have absolutely flawless reflexes and timing, a flatbow will only be able to spam Barrage 0.2 seconds faster than a recurve bow. And again, this is assuming flawless reflexes and timing on your part.
In reality, the two bows will spam Barrage at virtually the same pace (with a flatbow being maybe a tenth of a second faster), so the speed theory is bogus.

The real argument between which bow to use comes down to this: better range (flatbow) vs. better accuracy (recurve).
IMO, since Rangers (even Barrage spammers) need to be able to interrupt key skills at a moments notice (no time for bow swapping), the recurve bow is the way to go.

[Adja1005]

Flatbows work better for barrage builds due to their fast refire rate and long range. When using a barrage build (splinter, brutal, nightmare or in this case conjure) you want to lay out AoE damage fast while mobs are still packed together. This is why a flatbow is the best choice for the job.

Also the high arc of a flatbow can be beneficial if targets are behind obstacles as sometimes the arrows go high enough to avoid being obstructed. Also that high arc and higher chance of missed shots is mute when you consider how fast a flatbow fires and remember the range on them is pretty immense.

[SnipiousMax]

Good thing you added the "almost" part, because the flatbow's refire rate most certainly does NOT sync up with Barrage's refire rate.


Actually this is a myth, and it has been proven wrong any number of times. The barrage/flatbow sync problem has absolutely no impact on the final results.

See: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136832&highlight=barrage+test

Using an IAS doesn't change things either, Flatbows/Shortbows still rain supreme:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10164713

As to the question of Accuracy, there is honestly very little impact using a recurve over a flatbow as far as Barrage is concerned.

[XDeadboltX]

Does anybody know how much better is using a flatbow when barraging over a recurve. How much damage over time would u get from a flatbow, compared with a recurve.

[SnipiousMax]

For every 7 barrages with a recurve bow, you could get 8 with a flatbow. (Rough estimate, sans IAS)

[Dras]

Sounds like flatbow vs. recurve is pretty much opinion :p

Btw, why is splinter>conjure? i can just toss splinter on my hero...

[Fay Vert]

Sounds like flatbow vs. recurve is pretty much opinion :p


Not for Barrage :p

Btw, why is splinter>conjure? i can just toss splinter on my hero...

Because... (http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o58/FayVert/?action=view&current=margodmgh.jpg)

Okay, it got nerfed since then, but its still by far the biggest damage you can do on a bow shot to a group. Though Heroes don't use splinter too well.

[la_cabra_de_vida]

Flatbow archs are huge compared to recurves, that extra barrage you can get it is nothing compared to how many more arrows will miss their targets.

[XDeadboltX]

For every 7 barrages with a recurve bow, you could get 8 with a flatbow. (Rough estimate, sans IAS)

Ok thanks for clearing that up. Havent had a chance to use my deldrimor flatbow yet, its still un modded. Not really sure when im going to actually use barrage though.

I suppose its not that much of a difference then, depends whether or not youve got fw in your team build, or whether youre just solo splinter barraging in which you probably dont have fw

[Hugh Manatee]

Flatbow archs are huge compared to recurves, that extra barrage you can get it is nothing compared to how many more arrows will miss their targets.

[Favorable Winds]

makes a recurve's flight time, with a longbows range and a short bow's reload=ultimate ranger weapon

[Grammar]

Actually this is a myth, and it has been proven wrong any number of times. The barrage/flatbow sync problem has absolutely no impact on the final results.

See: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136832&highlight=barrage+test

Using an IAS doesn't change things either, Flatbows/Shortbows still rain supreme:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10164713

As to the question of Accuracy, there is honestly very little impact using a recurve over a flatbow as far as Barrage is concerned.
I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

The myth you speak of is the idea that the interrupted animation that results from a flatbow being slightly faster than Barrage somehow slows down Barrage (the sort of "double pump" effect that you see before the barrage animation begins). This has proven to be untrue. Barrage has a maximum fire rate, and that rate is unaffected by an animation interruptions/abnormalities.

However, this does not change the fact that the maximum fire rate of Barrage is slightly slower than the maximum fire rate of a flatbow on auto fire, which is what I meant when I said the two don't quite sync up.
Because of this, it is erroneous to say that a flatbow can fire Barrage at a rate of 0.4 seconds per Barrage faster than a recurve bow (like it can on auto fire), because Barrage isn't quite fast enough to take full advantage of the flatbow's 0.4 second speed advantage over the recurve bow.
In reality, like I said, the flatbow's speed advantage is much closer to 0.2 seconds faster per Barrage if you time it right, or 0.1 second or less if you don't.

The point that I'm trying to make is this: Yes, a flatbow will be able to fire slightly more Barrages per minute than a recurve bow, but that speed advantage isn't as big as you would think just by looking at the speed of the bows (2.0 vs. 2.4). A flatbow is NOT 0.4 seconds faster than a recurve bow at when it comes to spamming Barrage.

Because the speed difference isn't all that significant, I think the FAR more important issue here is the debate between better range (flatbow) vs. better interrupting ability (recurve).
And for me, personally, this isn't much of a debate. ;)
Recurve ftw.


For every 7 barrages with a recurve bow, you could get 8 with a flatbow. (Rough estimate, sans IAS)
Actually, it's for every 8 Barrages with a recurve bow, you could get 9 with a flatbow (assuming you time it right).

Once again, the speed advantage with Barrage is NOT the full 0.4 seconds per shot like it is on auto fire.

[Stranger The Ranger]

Barrage is baed

/topic

[fenix]

Yeah, Stranger the Ranger is right, Barrage is bad.

But really, fuzzy maths doesn't make Flat Bow better than Recurve, because for EVERYTHING other than Barrage under Favourable, Recurve is better.

Bad elite, bad bow.

[MasterSasori]

Recurve + FW > Flatbow + FW.

Is the range thing all that important to you guys? lol. more accuracy ftw.

Monsters move but they don't kite. However, you will be firing so fast with a flatbow, they'll all be dead before they knew what hit them.

[Hugh Manatee]

And yes, the range is important, if you're in recurve range you're in caster range, and are very close to aggro range. That buffer between you and you minion/pet wall is important, if you draw something to yourself in the backline then that puts your soft targets at risk(MMs, healers ect).

As said, between [favorable winds] and the fact that pve enemies don't kite a flatbow is a pve superweapon.

Also Barrage/Volley are excellent skills if you're going to be fighting clustered enemies. They are deadly when combined with splinter weapon and/or conjures. I've also found they can be used to charge Save Yourself for a sort of god mode ranger(either barrage+volley, FGJ+Barrage OR volley, or my favorite with a party of paragons and warriors backed by rit weapons, Infuriating heat+Volley. When you only have 1 guy to attack, triple shot and savage will charge SY).

[la_cabra_de_vida]

Yeah, Stranger the Ranger is right, Barrage is bad.

But really, fuzzy maths doesn't make Flat Bow better than Recurve, because for EVERYTHING other than Barrage under Favourable, Recurve is better.

Bad elite, bad bow.

Im not even going to try to argue with your because your logic is so bad. Point is, barrage is the best for bow rangers in pve since its the highest dps + rediculous sy fuel.

[Adja1005]

Im not even going to try to argue with your because your logic is so bad. Point is, barrage is the best for bow rangers in pve since its the highest dps + rediculous sy fuel.

[Glass Arrows][Broad Head Arrow][Burning Arrow] all > than [Barrage] no matter how you try to twist it.

Barrage on its own isn't all that great as it produces mediocre damage and relies to heavily on mobs being packed together to really produce good AoE damage. It also only becomes super usefull when combined with [splinter weapon] to create a large AoE spike to mobs who are grouped close together.

Personally if running a bow build i never take Barrage, theres just so many better skills out there for a bow ranger.

[Fay Vert]

Fortunately we get to bring up to 8 skills, not 1, so S/B still rocks.

[SnipiousMax]

@ Grammar

I did misunderstand, I apologize.


Because the speed difference isn't all that significant, I think the FAR more important issue here is the debate between better range (flatbow) vs. better interrupting ability (recurve).


Were accuracy truely a concern (ie...running interrupts), then it'd still be possible to use favorable winds and get the best of both. :P But honestly the only reason to run barrage is damage output, and you'd want to maximize that function at a slight cost to others.

Actually, it's for every 8 Barrages with a recurve bow, you could get 9 with a flatbow (assuming you time it right).

Once again, the speed advantage with Barrage is NOT the full 0.4 seconds per shot like it is on auto fire.

It still turns out that you are using 1-2 extra barrages per mob. If the fight ran long, you'd net even more. Depending on what other skills you are using (ie...splinter) and the makeup of the mob, that could result in a significant amount of damage you would've missed out on otherwise.

It'd only be pointless to use a flatbow, if you killed stuff so quickly, you never made it to the extra barrage....which I'm willing to admit is entirely in the realm of possiblity.

Barrage=Teh BAED!

If your group needed an interrupter, and you brought barrage, then yes it is probably a poor choice of skill. But in the utility Knife that is a ranger, Barrage is just another tool that can be effective in certain situations/groups. There is no point in hating a skill because it's popular. :P

[Grammar]

Barrage is indeed a good elite if you are looking for a high damage Splinter Weapon build. Because of the spammability of Barrage and the ridiculousness of Splinter Weapon in PvE, Splinter+Barrage is pretty much king of the hill when it comes to Ranger damage.

That said, there are two significant drawbacks to Barrage:
1. It costs you your elite slot
2. You focus much less on interrupts, because Barrage needs to be spammed on EVERY arrow to take full advantage of it's high damage potential.

This is why [broad head arrow]+[volley]+[splinter weapon] is so popular. It doesn't do as much damage as [barrage]+[splinter weapon], but it still does high damage while avoiding the two drawbacks that hurt Barrage. Freeing up the elite slot is especially a big deal, because BHA is a very powerful tool to have available to you.
Personally, I run BHA+Volley+Splinter on my PVE Ranger, because I like dazed and interrupts. But I certainly have no problem with people who choose the all-out damage route of Barrage+Splinter, because damage is ultimately the most important thing in PvE.

So no, Barrage is not bad. It's merely an acquired taste. ;)

[Quaker]

I would say that, for barrage you should be using [favorable winds] if you are using a Flatbow.

If you're not using FW, (and even if you are) you should be using a Shortbow (gasp!) - yes, that's right, a Shortbow. With a shortbow, you get the fastest fire rate, plus the ability to interrupt. Plus, you are already in range when you throw in [Pain Inverter] or whatever.

(Unless, of course, you are in a group with a "tank" where you don't want to break agro. Then use a Flatbow.)

Btw, I am attempting to limit my response to the OP's question. Whether or not Barrage is the "best" elite, or the best build, is another discussion.

[Fangclaw]

Wether you want to use a Flatbow or a Recurve bow is a matter of taste. I actually use both of them for Barraging, its just a matter of circumstances...