Amazing Dervish... D/W [Archive] - Guild Wars Forums

sinican

11-28-2006, 01:48 AM

Pure enchants no need for attack skills

2 Varients of this... both use either Rajazans Ferver or Totem Axe... Take Hassin's shell(no req, 10AL Shield) or a nice max Q9 Tactics shiled with mods

Full set of Windwalkers, Vigor, Major Earth, Sup Mysticism

Attributes

With Shell Shield...

Swords/Axe 10
Earth Prayers 10+2
Mysticism 11+3+1
(95AL Total with 3 enchants up)

With Q9 shield...

Swords/Axe 4
Earth Prayers 10+2
Mysticism 11+3+1
(101AL Total with 3 Enchants up)

Skills

Mystic Sandstorm 10/.75/8 Spell. Lose all Enchantments. For each Enchantment removed in this way, all nearby foes are struck for 10...30 earth damage (maximum 130 damage).
Staggering Force 10/.75/12 Enchantment Spell. All adjacent foes are struck for 20...68 earth damage. For 30 seconds, your attacks deal earth damage. When this Enchantment ends, all adjacent foes are Weakened for 5...13 seconds.
Dust Cloak 10/.75/15 Enchantment Spell. All adjacent foes are struck for 20...68 earth damage. For 30 seconds, your attacks deal earth damage. When this Enchantment ends, all adjacent foes are Blinded for 1...4 seconds.
Vital Boon 5/1/8 Enchantment Spell. For 20 seconds, you have +40...88 maximum Health. When this Enchantment ends, you are healed for 75...175 Health.
Heart of Holy Flame 10/.75/15 Enchantment Spell. All adjacent foes take 15...51 holy damage. For 30 seconds, your attacks deal holy damage. When this Enchantment ends, all adjacent foes are set on fire for 1...3 seconds.
Mystic Regeneration 10/.25/5 Enchantment Spell. For 20 seconds, you have +1...3 Health regeneration for each Enchantment on you.
Signet of Pious Light 0/1/20 Signet. Lose 1 Enchantment. Target ally is healed for 30...102 Health. If an Enchantment was removed in this way, this Signet recharges immediately.
Aura of Thorns 5/.75/12 Enchantment Spell. All nearby foes are Crippled for 4...9 seconds. For 30 seconds, this Enchantment does nothing. When this Enchantment ends, all nearby foes begin Bleeding for 5...13 seconds.

Yes i Know their isnt a res you can drop an enchant its your choice
Use

Prep each fight with Mystic Regen and Vital boon pick a target (its ok u can take any of them) space attack get in melee range... stack ur enchants till ur out of energy use ur sig one time then hit mystic sandstorm

rinse and repeat... when you start to understand the skills better youll find a few tricks... on better spiking...

sometimes it may be your benefit to prep with boon and regen go in for melee and use for thorns first to cripple ur target so it cant run... or prep and go in throw of dust cloak then imetiately remove it with your sig to blind then follow through with your enchant stacking... another single remove then sandstorm...

what this build comes out to is this... your a dervish running around with 95-101AL with a possible +18hp regen(yea it caps at 10 but you'll enjoy having a +10 regen through poison/bleed or phantasm etc)... youll have a nice spike of 100+ dmg spike to everything around you setting them on fire. crippling them, blinding them, and causing them to bleed... meanwhile your energy continues to be sustained through the powers of mysicism and 3 of your enchant have a primary dmg spike before hand

this build is very hard to kill... it is a favorite in parties because it tanks better than your typical warrior, spikes hella nice and is almost completely independant of a healer(cept the usualy messies and enchant strippers, though 99% of them are no prob to tank through) and it works great for PvP... did some test in RA and TA (yea i know its not a complete pvp test)... lets put it this way... 9/10 of the battles i was always the last one standing... 2 of them i solod all 4 players after my team got tore up 1 of them it took a ranger with a pet, some screwy necro with a flesh golem and 2 wars to take me down... 1 of the 10... i hit some nasty messy who stripped all my enchants reduce my energy regen to 2 pips and well i took a dirt nap after getting a smack down from a thumper..

Questions, Comments... I know there has to be some...

sinican

11-28-2006, 05:57 PM

hrmm no comments...

more variants of this build seem to be blooming though... thats for sure...

in case it isn't completely clear... the build has an extremely high survival rate and excelent dmg out put... less spike dmg but med-high spike with condition effects and a continuous stream of it... the build doesnt have energy problems... does not rely on making a hit with your weapon and regens through some really nasty dmg...

any spike sustained is easily countered through using sandstorm to dish off all enchants for the +15hp each the offer plus the release of Vital boon giving well over a 200hp heal in all.. through use you will find it extremely easy to maintain enchants and always stack your vital boon for easy remove for any unexpected spikes...

i was hopeing for some feedback becaues i can't possibly think of all the concerns other may have and its easier just to answer them...

heck even a "nice build" or "works great" is fine... heh... don't need pats on the back but at least im getting a form of feedback... I like seeing that it has helped a few players new to the dervish line or just haven't quite figured out the strengths of the derv yet...

good luck

Icepic

11-28-2006, 06:17 PM

sinican

11-28-2006, 10:51 PM

I recently started working on a Dervish and am starting to really enjoy the class. I don't yet have all the skills for this build, but it looks rather entertaining. I will give it a go when I get the chance. Thanks for sharing.

early on you can use the varient i started out on this which was...

Blessed insignias on armor
normal scyth with min req in syth mastery

max mysticism
rest Earth prayers
(keep ur mysticism at increments of 3 and dumping the rest into earth untill u get sup myst rune and major earth rune in which case youll have 10scyth 12earth 15myst

pious assult
twin moon
Heart of holy flame
sealous renewal
vital boon
sig of pious light
arau of thorns

others to swap out as they become available

heart of furry
dust cloak
staggering force

as has been discovered... u can use a 1 handed melee weapon and shield with the two attack skills i listed as well.. but mostly not needed because with the above build you want the extra dmg from ur syth

the build works essentially the same... except instead of stacking all ur enchants your going to prep with vital boon only at first then go in hit an encahnt use and attack (the attacks above will remove an enchant twin moon will attack twice and heal you and pious assault will instant recharge) keep adding an enchant and removing them with attacks till low on energy then use your sig to dump them all

recast vital boon and start over...

Kijik Oni Hanryuu

11-28-2006, 10:55 PM

you can still get your skills by PvPing a little bit then unlock the skills you need with balth faction then buy em at any Elonian skill trainer... And sin I hope that by saying "variants of this build" isn't inferring that you are the one that first created a build using Mystic Regeneration as it's backbone,anyway.... seems like a nice build GJ...

sinican

11-29-2006, 07:31 AM

And sin I hope that by saying "variants of this build" isn't inferring that you are the one that first created a build using Mystic Regeneration as it's backbone,anyway.... seems like a nice build GJ...

nope not at all.. Anet created the skill the game and all the equipment... I just borrow what they created...

Backbone of the build I use, I Consider to be Mystic Regen along with that the build uses absolutely no attacks for its dmg defence and overall capability... when i say varients im more refering to the types of enchants that can be used with the build...

Varient I was refering to in my most recent post is refering to a varient of the dervish in general...

I claim absolutely no credit for the builds I use... simply happy with giving anyone something to work with...

Icepic

11-29-2006, 07:50 AM

you can still get your skills by PvPing a little bit then unlock the skills you need with balth faction then buy em at any Elonian skill trainer

I dont PvP hardly at all, but was starting to think that it would be a good idea even if to only gain balth faction as you have suggested. Thanks

max mysticism
rest Earth prayers
(keep ur mysticism at increments of 3 and dumping the rest into earth untill u get sup myst rune and major earth rune in which case youll have 10scyth 12earth 15myst

pious assult
twin moon
Heart of holy flame
sealous renewal
vital boon
sig of pious light
arau of thorns

I'm currently using several of these skills, but not quite in the manner that you suggested. I'll adjust my build and my tactics a bit. I have been keeping Mysticism high, but I didn't pay too much attention to the break points. Thanks for the heads up.

sinican

11-29-2006, 12:58 PM

I'm currently using several of these skills, but not quite in the manner that you suggested. I'll adjust my build and my tactics a bit. I have been keeping Mysticism high, but I didn't pay too much attention to the break points. Thanks for the heads up.

you can make any alterations to skills and how you use the build..

be aware though that the function of the build is not related to melee attacks at all.. both pious assault and twin move are merely utilized to there fullest because they remove the enchants you want to set off...

the enchants that i use in the builds have primary and secondary effects.. except mystic regeneration which speaks for itself in its usefullness with a high enchant build...

ultimately the function of the build comes from setting up ur enchants to apply the primary effects directly to yourself or for AoE at everything around you... the attacks and the sig are meant to prematurely end those enchants forcing their secondary effects to go off.. such as burning grom HoHF, bleeding from thorns, weaken from staggering force, etc... and that use of it is what keeps you alive and doing constant damage...

mysticism heals and regens ur energy everytime an enchant ends... Vital boon give you a max health boost and then when it ends gives a nice heal in conjunction and timeing with twin moon or sig of pious light you are healing yourself through a lot of dmg...

I do see way to many dervs out there just trying to get off as much damage as they can and the skills they use don't even mix together well (that feeling you get when u just feel your build is missing something)

with both builds i listed above... you get 4 effects from every enchant you use... primary secondary health and energy... it works fluidly and is hard to break... doesnt have energy management issues and isnt dependant on conditional environment...

its definately your choice how you play... just keep that in mind

good luck

Eon Colombia

11-30-2006, 03:13 PM

looks like a great build, im level 14 and got all the skills i needed thru pvp and such, but cant find a good spot to test it out... any ideas?

Eon Colombia

11-30-2006, 03:16 PM

and one more question...are the totem axe and shell shield absolutely necessary and if so where can i get them and how much do they go for?

sinican

11-30-2006, 05:13 PM

and one more question...are the totem axe and shell shield absolutely necessary and if so where can i get them and how much do they go for?

they shell is need if you want to go for passive weapon dmg and not have to put points into tact or motivation to meet reqs for other shields...

the shell is easy to get.. it is outside the Sunspear Hall to the South...

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Hassin%27s_Shell

easily farmable with the build using the Syth Version (since you dont have the shield yet)... think ill go farm some for that mater as this build seems to be getting some popularity those shields may be worth a few gold...

Totem Axe is not needed... reason i use a totem axe is because i had some in storage and its easy to obtain at 4k-6k a pop... pretty much though if your not worrying about your weapon dmg u can use any 20% enchant 1hd melee weapon with +5 energy always.. (energy not needed but very helpfull) if your going fo dmg with weapon u want Q8 or Q9 weapon and go with 15% while enchanted or 15^50 if you dont need the energy...

if your using the build as i posted though... your really not doing much attacking because your typically always casting

I use the Totem for its mods not its dmg... put my points into tactics/motivation depending on the shield to get +16AL and the mods on a real shield...

Im now hunting for one of the Paragon Sheilds and thinking of going for +45hp while enchanted -2 dmg while enchanted vs the +30hp/-5dmg 20% standard max shield

PS when they going to add a spell checker... lol my typing gets horible

auntie ying

12-12-2006, 01:03 AM

Hi, I have tired this build and it is my favourite drevish build now.
For pve, I hate any dervish tank build coz warrior hero/henchman can tank properly in most of the time(oh i have to tell u that i seldom play with real player now...), so my dervish's job is to give as much as damage to the enemies.

I have tried many of the dervish builds in this forum but their build cannot give very high damage. After some invesgation i found that the problem is dued to the using of sycthe :
i) the damage of sycthe is low,
ii) the speed of sycthe is low,
iii) many enemies have high physical defense,
iv) enemies can block your physical attack,
v) too little enemies got hit by sycthe

It make me wanna cry that the overall damage of dervish is so poor.

Sinican's build is really good that it
1) give high damage,
2) give me many en to cast spells not-stoply,
3) quite easy to survice in many cases(coz the enemis got blinded)

The following is the skillset I use(it is a little bit different from sinican's build)
Mystic Sandstorm
Staggering Force
Dust Cloak
Heart of Holy Flame
Aura of Thorns
Vital Boon
Avator of Lyssa or Bal {E}
Rez signet/Glyph of Lesser Energy/Ether Signet

Bring Avator of Bal when u need to run or u need high defense armor,
otherwise bring Avator of Lyssa.

Weapon : any +10~15 en, + spell recharge(17~20%) staff

May be u guys would think that this dervish is hard to survice but in fact it does not(oh..i admit that it cannot tank), I have tested it in CH2 & 3 and I think it is a really good damage dealer.

Tingi

12-12-2006, 10:12 AM

I have tried many of the dervish builds in this forum but their build cannot give very high damage. After some invesgation i found that the problem is dued to the using of sycthe :
i) the damage of sycthe is low,
ii) the speed of sycthe is low,
iii) many enemies have high physical defense,
iv) enemies can block your physical attack,
v) too little enemies got hit by sycthe

Dude wth are you talking about?

Let me spell this out to you. First of all its spelt "scythe" not "sycthe". The scythe has the HIGHEST maximum dmg of a melee weapon in the game! So don't give me "the dmg of a scythe is crap" bs. True, the speed of the scythe is slow, like the hammer, but this is only to keep the game balanced. And you can use IAS skills like Heart Of Fury which is awsome. Many enemies have high physical defence and they can block your attacks...poor argument - I guess melee characters arnt for you. And lastly - too little enemies get hit by scythe attacks?!? Dude the scythe is the ONLY weapon (not including skills) that can hit multiple targets!

Earendil

12-12-2006, 11:40 AM

Don`t get too nervous on this. He just said that scythe damage is not enough for his play style which is fine by me. Whatever he said applies to any melee weapon too. Playing a meleer requires different abilities and interests and he found more fun in playing a PBAOE damage caster (just like the OP) which is ok - dervishes were planned as that too. In PvE where mobs aggro on you it should work quite well and its a legitimate use of the skills.

Bashing other options (the melee dervish) is probably due to a lack of experience with the matter. Dervish scythers have one of the highest DPS (excluding the case when you have 5-10 mobs adjacent to you :) - then for sure the PBAOE damage skills are better).

To the OP: It looks like a fun idea. Mystic sandstorm/Mystic twister spikes have been seen in PVP occasionalluy - I personally love them for the originality. RA is not a good test for PvP. TA is better but mainly depends on who you`re fighting. The best way to counter your damage is simply spread. and let 1 single meleer attack you while the others do ranged stuff. Good teams are those who adapt.

I promise I'll test this build in TA/HA then I;ll be back
/pats OP on the back

milias

12-12-2006, 11:42 AM

I posted something like this a while ago. Somehow, I think Mystic Sandstorm is going to get the nerf bat.

sinican

12-12-2006, 04:55 PM

Dude wth are you talking about?

LOL I think she made herself rather clear

Let me spell this out to you. First of all its spelt "scythe" not "sycthe".

That line allone lost you all credability in my book.. really how childish is it to flame someone for a typo?.. but continue on...

The scythe has the HIGHEST maximum dmg of a melee weapon in the game! So don't give me "the dmg of a scythe is crap" bs.

shoudl should have capitalized MAXIMUM not highest... because well just because it has the highest max dmg doesn't make it the hardest hitting... your damage range on a scythe is 9-41, which gives it an average dmg of 25... compare that to a hammer which does 19-35 dmg, giving it an average damage of 27.. same attack spead... difference is that the scythe can hit up to 3 targets "adjacent" to each other... how often does this happen?? but still noteworthly.

True, the speed of the scythe is slow, like the hammer, but this is only to keep the game balanced. And you can use IAS skills like Heart Of Fury which is awsome.

agreed, HoF works with any weapon btw same with most IAS... she wasn't trashing the speed of the weapon just making valid points

Many enemies have high physical defence and they can block your attacks...poor argument - I guess melee characters arnt for you.

IMO blockable/evadable/dodgable attacks are not a poor arguement at all.. it is a complete concern especially with the amount of skills now that make landing a hit dificult for any meleer... any decent player has this concern on their mind... what if i cant land my hits etc..

And lastly - too little enemies get hit by scythe attacks?!? Dude the scythe is the ONLY weapon (not including skills) that can hit multiple targets!

only 3 can be hit with you scythe without using a skill IF they are adjacent to each other and in front of you

you got way to upset for nothing and started flaming without a basis...

the poster made completely factual and stated opinion that she has... with the points she made in entirety she is 99% correct... "most" scythe Dervishes cannot sustain decent amount of dmg for any period of time due to energy and attack speed related reasons (activation times/aftercast/blinded/evaded/blocked/interupted/energy) it is also my opinion that the dervish character has more potential being enchantment heavy with few scythe attacks if any at all...

they are not a warrior their attacks are all energy based and they only have a few ways to manage there small energy pool... their main attribute is based on enchantments. this should be some clue that they are intended to be more effective using the skills and the attribute in itself...

there are a few decent scythe builds on the boards, I don't think anyone will argue that, my opinion still is that they dont have theendurance of an enchant heavy build... the build posted above can take ALL the other posted builds on this forum and any i have ever ran accross for that mater...they can get some pretty high dmg out but they cant sustain the preasure is the problem and they can't take the heat as well either...

don't be so ready to jump on people that have a different opinion than you do... especially when that opion is supportable

sinican

12-12-2006, 05:43 PM

To the OP: It looks like a fun idea. Mystic sandstorm/Mystic twister spikes have been seen in PVP occasionalluy - I personally love them for the originality. RA is not a good test for PvP. TA is better but mainly depends on who you`re fighting. The best way to counter your damage is simply spread. and let 1 single meleer attack you while the others do ranged stuff. Good teams are those who adapt.

I promise I'll test this build in TA/HA then I;ll be back
/pats OP on the back

thanks for the imput, has already been tested in HA/TA/GvG/AB/RA/ZE and works excelent as a 4 man derv with support for HA or a 4 man Derv cap team in AB, 4 man for RA/TA/ZE(btw 7 consecutive flawless including 4vs6 Zaishen Rangers, finally got wiped by 8 Z Eles)

Also.. I have modified the build since then and abandoned the Scythe line completely. Blows the current build out of the water

I have been afraid to post the build because well its good and I want to get more play out of it before everyone knows it and overuses it... Soon though Soon... PLUS im having a hard time naming it.. so far no one has made a build like it or post anything close to it anyware other than the primary skills of Sandstorm and Regen... soon to be experiementing with this build using a Ranger in the team with 15-16BM running Symbiosis... 1500+ hp dervish(es) running around

auntie ying

12-13-2006, 01:46 AM

Hey guys~!! Plz dun so nervous about my article(and focus on my spelling mistake)~!!

I'm not surprised to see some of u object to this build, coz i have argued with many players on this issue before.(i asked them to throw away their green end-game sycthe XDDD)

Nadav101

12-13-2006, 04:07 AM

sinican

12-13-2006, 07:36 AM

how ur gonna have enough energy to cast those spells?

25 is only enough for like 2-3 enhancments

depending on your choice of runes and weapons this build functions fully at 30-37 energy(2-3 attunement runes +5e weapon, remember you dont care about weapon dmg in this build)

even at 25 energy you are fine if you prep and aren't the type that loves to prematurely spike

Mysticism at 15 returns 5e and 15hp everytime an enchant ends and the dervish has 4 pips of energy regen

depending how many enchants you have on when you release sandstorm you get 5-30 energy back... your signet is a 0e cost which releases an enchantment which returns energy because of mysticism and instantly recharges your signet for another go

kirch1jt

12-13-2006, 09:31 AM

this definately isnt a new build, a guildie and i have been running something really close to this (but even better) since day 1, he came up with it during the preview, back in september.

Earendil

12-13-2006, 10:12 AM

this definately isnt a new build, a guildie and i have been running something really close to this (but even better) since day 1, he came up with it during the preview, back in september.

A perfect example of a pointless post. What you say is that the OP is not original, he just stole (or somenow copied) your idea. On the other hand your build is the same yet better than the OPs ?! You won't share it with us (probably so we cannot steal it again), you dont comment the build's issues, you don't post a link to where you have discussed your own build....Question is - what was the point of the post ? To claim the copyright on the build ? - sorry in GW you noone will ever get copyrights for builds.

The OP has presented the build, tested it discussed strenghts and weaknesses, answered to questions (more or less relevant) - that makes him a lot more commendable in my eyes than being the "first" (such a relative issue - alpha testers have probably played many of what we currently think are original builds long before the skills were available to us).

On the energy issue - remember that at 15 mysticism, any self cast enchant effectively costs 5 energy less , assuming you have a decent pool not to run out (35-40 should probably do)

So, assuming a 20 seconds cycle, the costs of the skills are: 4*5+10(sandstorm) thats 30 energy. Natural regen of energy is 20*4/3= 27 energy. Therefore its not that energy intensive after all.

Earendil

12-13-2006, 10:41 AM

sinican

12-13-2006, 01:20 PM

dbl post

sinican

12-13-2006, 01:44 PM

I'm back with numbers on the damage side. My interest is in PVP and the question is whether the total damage of the setup would actually be more than the one from a regular scythe.

The average damage of a PvP scythe at 16 scythe mastery is 50 per hit (criticals are included) - did that math in another thread.

Taking a 20 secs period into account (this looks like your sandstorm cycle if I'm not wrong), and a dervish with no speed buffs or damage enhancing skills (like vow of strenght or scythe attacks) that will never hit more than one single target, he will swing about 12 times making for a total damage of about 600.

In your build there are three sources of damage: Sandstorm, damage on applying enchants and conditions. Condition damage is too difficult to compute and the apply on enchant damage is only on adjacent area. While in PvE melee monsters will attack you and stay near you, in PvP you will probably be ignored and kited - and you have no speed buff to chase a kiter. Therefore I will assume a total of 100 damage done by "on apply" enchants and conditions (I'm feeling generous ). Damage from Sandstorm is 130.

The result is that damage wise, you have to hit at least 4 foes with the sandstorm to output the same damage that a scyther with absolutely no boosts or luck (no AoE) does.

The whole point of the build would be a coordinated spike, since damage will come so fast that the enemy healers cant do their jobs. However, for 20 secs you will be harmless - they can res, heal and plan their defence.

The concept of "tank" is a nonsense in PvP. A charachter that uses 4-5 skills for his survival will just,...well...survive. To be, as you described yourself, the last survivor of the team. Then you will (eventually die) and your team will lose, regardless of how well you "tanked" in the end.

Don't get me wrong, I like the general idea. I'm trying a similar build based on Aura of Displacement and using a Mystic twister before the Sandstorm and I'm really enjoying it. However - it takes a lot of coordination to make it effective.

well based on your comparison you give yourself the ability to be at melee range of your target for the entire duration of 20 seconds against a target that has 60AL and isn't healed to do your average of 50dmg a hit 12 times for a total of 600 dmg

so at the least given that same ability afforded to the build i posted the potential dmg given the same oportunity would be 2 cycles of sandstorm

260dmg from sandstorm
120dmg from Holy Flame
136dmg from staggering
136dmg from Dust Cloak
156dmg from bleeding (13seconds each 6dps x2)
112dmg from burning (4seconds each 14dps x2)

920dmg AoE

but we both know that both examples are hypothetical... and dont actually happen...

you have to worry about blind/block/evade/weaken affecting your dmg... I dont

Holy Flame's trigger dmg ignors armor (has been tested)

and condition damage isnt affected by AL...

we both have to worry about strafing, and healing...

but again based on potential dmg in a 20 seconds time frame... I beat your 600dmg and not just by a little.

to get a real comparision you really have to play the build and test it.

sinican

12-13-2006, 01:51 PM

A perfect example of a pointless post. What you say is that the OP is not original, he just stole (or somenow copied) your idea. On the other hand your build is the same yet better than the OPs ?! You won't share it with us (probably so we cannot steal it again), you dont comment the build's issues, you don't post a link to where you have discussed your own build....Question is - what was the point of the post ? To claim the copyright on the build ? - sorry in GW you noone will ever get copyrights for builds.

The OP has presented the build, tested it discussed strenghts and weaknesses, answered to questions (more or less relevant) - that makes him a lot more commendable in my eyes than being the "first" (such a relative issue - alpha testers have probably played many of what we currently think are original builds long before the skills were available to us).

On the energy issue - remember that at 15 mysticism, any self cast enchant effectively costs 5 energy less , assuming you have a decent pool not to run out (35-40 should probably do)

So, assuming a 20 seconds cycle, the costs of the skills are: 4*5+10(sandstorm) thats 30 energy. Natural regen of energy is 20*4/3= 27 energy. Therefore its not that energy intensive after all.

Bravo!

better yet is...

this definately isnt a new build, a guildie and i have been running something really close to this

it either is or isnt... if your not using the same build then how does your build make my build not new??? (note though that i didn't claim it was new and i posted it because it wasn't posted. still as far as I had known, no one was using that build)

or is this the case where people claim rights to any build that uses some of the skills they use???

guess what though.. just as Earendil said no body owns any of these builds... so... yay...

so that means you can continue pretending that you and your guildie invented a build that is close to the one i posted but NOT and continue to pretend youre l33t and special :P

jesh

12-13-2006, 05:40 PM

shoudl should have capitalized MAXIMUM not highest... because well just because it has the highest max dmg doesn't make it the hardest hitting... your damage range on a scythe is 9-41, which gives it an average dmg of 25... compare that to a hammer which does 19-35 dmg, giving it an average damage of 27.. same attack spead... difference is that the scythe can hit up to 3 targets "adjacent" to each other... how often does this happen?? but still noteworthly.

The damage from a scythe will be higher than that of the hammer, because if you're running at 16 weapon attribute like a good little boy will, you'll critical enough to make up for the low base attack of the scythe. This is the same principle that is proven when you compare the damage of a sword and an axe. Sure, the axe has dismal base damage, but with a high critical rate this matters less and less. As for your "adjacent never happens" thing.. well you need to work on your positioning. It happens a lot if you know what you're doing.

IMO blockable/evadable/dodgable attacks are not a poor arguement at all.. it is a complete concern especially with the amount of skills now that make landing a hit dificult for any meleer... any decent player has this concern on their mind... what if i cant land my hits etc..
Most melee classes couldn't give two crayons. Look at any standard warrior build, you won't see anything like Expose Defenses on there. Why? Because you can do a smart little thing called "switching tagets". Ever heard of it?

only 3 can be hit with you scythe without using a skill IF they are adjacent to each other and in front of you
Oh, is that all? These things that you dismiss so easily are what makes the dervish a melee class to be reckoned with. An "enchant build", or whatever the heck you want to call this, is far from the only viable thing to do with a dervish. If it gains popularity, that's just because it requires less brains to hit Mystic Sandstorm than to try and execute a melee spike.

with the points she made in entirety she is 99% correct... "most" scythe Dervishes cannot sustain decent amount of dmg for any period of time due to energy and attack speed related reasons (activation times/aftercast/blinded/evaded/blocked/interupted/energy) it is also my opinion that the dervish character has more potential being enchantment heavy with few scythe attacks if any at all...

they are not a warrior their attacks are all energy based and they only have a few ways to manage there small energy pool... their main attribute is based on enchantments. this should be some clue that they are intended to be more effective using the skills and the attribute in itself...
Their main attribute is energy management. If you're not creative enough to use it to create attack chains, then fine. But don't post rubbish like this on the forums, please.

so at the least given that same ability afforded to the build i posted the potential dmg given the same oportunity would be 2 cycles of sandstorm
.......................

but we both know that both examples are hypothetical... and dont actually happen...
The difference is, any build that takes advantage of the dervish as a melee class will have ways to deal with kiters and an IAS, not to mention other skills that add to your melee damage in one way or another. The 600ish damage that he mentions is from auto attacking. That's C+Space action, compared to your whole skillbar. Not to mention the OP's build gets screwed with a simple Pin Down.
You could take condition or hex removal, and a speed boost, but that's less enchants to do damage with. There's a strength to every build, but I don't see this working well outside of PvE - AKA high end PvP - where people are smart enough to kite. You can kill stupid people with it in AB, no doubt, but you can kill stupid people with just about anything.

sinican

12-13-2006, 06:36 PM

The damage from a scythe will be higher than that of the hammer, because if you're running at 16 weapon attribute like a good little boy will, you'll critical enough to make up for the low base attack of the scythe. This is the same principle that is proven when you compare the damage of a sword and an axe. Sure, the axe has dismal base damage, but with a high critical rate this matters less and less. As for your "adjacent never happens" thing.. well you need to work on your positioning. It happens a lot if you know what you're doing.

Most melee classes couldn't give two crayons. Look at any standard warrior build, you won't see anything like Expose Defenses on there. Why? Because you can do a smart little thing called "switching tagets". Ever heard of it?

Oh, is that all? These things that you dismiss so easily are what makes the dervish a melee class to be reckoned with. An "enchant build", or whatever the heck you want to call this, is far from the only viable thing to do with a dervish. If it gains popularity, that's just because it requires less brains to hit Mystic Sandstorm than to try and execute a melee spike.

Their main attribute is energy management. If you're not creative enough to use it to create attack chains, then fine. But don't post rubbish like this on the forums, please.

The difference is, any build that takes advantage of the dervish as a melee class will have ways to deal with kiters and an IAS, not to mention other skills that add to your melee damage in one way or another. The 600ish damage that he mentions is from auto attacking. That's C+Space action, compared to your whole skillbar. Not to mention the OP's build gets screwed with a simple Pin Down.You could take condition or hex removal, and a speed boost, but that's less enchants to do damage with. There's a strength to every build, but I don't see this working well outside of PvE - AKA high end PvP - where people are smart enough to kite. You can kill stupid people with it in AB, no doubt, but you can kill stupid people with just about anything.

Ok no mater how much I'd love you tear apart your post again I'll try and stop this...

Both of your posts are completely opinionated and full of contradictory elements... re-read your posts... all of the arguements you make against the echanter have absolute affect on the Scythe as well... You cant just say well your enchanter is screwed by pin down (cripple) and not realize that so is your Scythe Derv... You also can't say that its easier to smash sandstorm than to link a Scythe spike and then turn around and comment how its easier to c+space as Scythe Derv than to use enchantments without seeing the condradictions you are making...And you can't call people stupid to actually make a valid point without realizing you made no point at all except that your the ignorant one.

you also continue to discredit because of your untested opinions, which I'm sorry has absolutely no merit...

I'm done with this discussion between you and I..

Thanks

auntie ying

12-13-2006, 08:35 PM

how ur gonna have enough energy to cast those spells?

25 is only enough for like 2-3 enhancments

1) bring a +15en staff
2) use avator of lyssa
3) heal/prot monk will give u some enchanments (aegis, rof, healing breeze etc)
4) use sandstorm once u have 4 or more enchanment
5) bring glyph of lesser energy

ogami_ito

12-13-2006, 10:05 PM

I’m don’t want to get into the discussion about whether or not a scythe build will do more damage. And the “tone” of that discussion is not very productive. I personally think that this build is not that great in most forms of PvP because a) it needs to almost completely fill up with enchants to be effective, and b) PvP almost requires a little more self-utility than this (running speed boosts, interrupts, condition removals, hex removals, etc). I think this is probably a very viable build for RA, and I’m thinking of some very cool variations that can be used in Hero Battles.

The problem with it in PvP as I see it is not so much the damage output and lack of utility as is the problem of keeping enemies in range of your “build-up” enchants. This is because you stop to cast while opponents are still moving…that ¾ second makes a big difference. And its difficult to get more than one opponent in range at a time. This is not easy in PvE as well. In PvE, for this build to really shine, you need to hit more than one mob at once at least.

I sort of tried this out in PvE yesterday, in the Barbarous Coast. Again, I don’t know if a scythe would do more damage, but this build was…FUN! Corsairs died very quickly.

I did not really use the ops exact build. In part because I did not want to buy new armor or runes…so my build is not optimized. I feel the build really needs a melee sword AND shield that both give + 5 energy. I used a wand and focus which gave a lot of +energy (because I was not going to put new insignias on my armor), but the problem with this is that without melee auto-attack, it is more difficult to get in range.

My non-optimized build had this
Myst 12, Earth 11, Wind 9

Arcane Zeal [e]
Vital Boom
Aura of Thorns
Heart of Holy Flame
Mystic Regen
Staggering Force
Mystic Twister
Mystic Sandstorm

To the OP: In PvE, use Arcane Zeal. REALLY! Every time a monk casts Reversal of Fortune on you, you get an extra 4e from mysticism, returns energy. So if a monk placed RoF and say, Aegis after you used Arcane Zeal, he just gave you 3 energy up front, pluss 8 energy when those two spells end. When you follow this chain, Mystic Twister…which does 100 damage to 5 - 6 enemies in the area, essentially only 4 or 5 energy. There is NO downtime…You run through every spell except Mystic Sandstorm in before Arcane Zeal ends, and when it ends, you get 4 energy back, giving enough to hit your Mystic Sandstorm. The whole set is ready to re-run in 15 seconds. So you are constantly activating the enchants.

The energy flow chain looks like this:
Arcane Zeal [e] -10, Vital Boom -5+1 Aura of Thorns -5+2 Heart of Holy Flame-10+3 Mystic Regen -10+4 Staggering Force -10+5 Mystic Twister -10+5 (+4 for end of Acrane Zeal) Mystic Sandstorm -10 = -40 energy in 10 seconds (not counting energy regen...later sets are slower because 15sec recharge on some enchants) This is the same net energy as using Glyph of Lesser Energy, ASSUMING monks don't add to your energy pool and efficiency by putting their enchants on you.

In a set, it does about 250 damage to adjacent enemies, plus 100 damage to up to 6 enemies in the area, + adjacent enemies are on fire for 3 seconds (51 damage), bleeding and crippled for 10 seconds (60 damage), and weakened. If Mystic Twister hits adjacent enemy, and the enemy mob did not move away from you, then on the first pass you outputted 350 damage in 10 seconds, plus another 100 damage over the next 10 seconds.

Now for some variants… I have not tried these, but I think it would work.
Replace one of the above enchants or Mystic Twister with Vow of Piety. Vow of Piety is only ¼ second cast and 5 energy, so if you replace, say Staggering Force, you probably can get all the set through (the first run anyway) before Arcane runs out. So when you hit Mystic Sandstorm, you heal 7 party members 40 hp. Meh…

BUT, replace Mystic Twister with Mystic Healing. Take a +20% to enchant time weapon. As I calculate it, before Arcane Zeal runs out on the first set, you should be able to cast Mystic Healing once. Then, instead of doing Mystic Sandstorm, re-cast Arcane Zeal, then cast Mystic Healing 3 times or so before Vital Boom ends. Mystic Healing essentially costs 0 energy with 5 enchants and if you have 6 enchants, you gain energy with each cast. You have now healed 6 party members, 3 times, for 60-70hp each time…or a total of 1080 – 1260 hit-points in 10 seconds, for 0 (or positive gain) energy. If you don’t see a good clump of opponents to Sandstorm, then let vital boom end, re-apply for 0 net energy, then re-apply Mystic Regen, then cast Mystic healing another 3-4 times.

BTW, with the above builds, its good if monks can cast some enchants on you now and then, as each time those enchants end, you get 4 energy and some health

sinican

12-13-2006, 11:48 PM

I’m don’t want to get into the discussion about whether or not a scythe build will do more damage. And the “tone” of that discussion is not very productive. I personally think that this build is not that great in most forms of PvP because a) it needs to almost completely fill up with enchants to be effective, and b) PvP almost requires a little more self-utility than this (running speed boosts, interrupts, condition removals, hex removals, etc). I think this is probably a very viable build for RA, and I’m thinking of some very cool variations that can be used in Hero Battles.

The problem with it in PvP as I see it is not so much the damage output and lack of utility as is the problem of keeping enemies in range of your “build-up” enchants. This is because you stop to cast while opponents are still moving…that ¾ second makes a big difference. And its difficult to get more than one opponent in range at a time. This is not easy in PvE as well. In PvE, for this build to really shine, you need to hit more than one mob at once at least.

heh its ok... and yes you are correct about the abilities in PvP... really how the build works in Higher End PvP is prepping your first sandstorm set runing in and using Thorns then releaseing your sandstorm... that imediately puts the preasure on your target with all effects and full dmg of the build... from that point "usually" your target makes a short jaunt to get some sort of healing in, at which point your thorns is ready for another go...

still can be a problem to constantly chase down kiters but absolutely can be accomplished...

the tactic my guildies and I have was for me to head for the tank right off the bat to blind him then when the casters come out to spike or monk to heal i imediated switch to that target and run in for the thorns to cripple by that time i have already preped 3 enchants then setting up throns as the 4th its already time to set sandstorm... once a caster has been crippled they don't have enough time to get out of the "nearby" range of sandstorm...

it takes a different style of play and not like what people are used to...

another good use of this build is caster cover... in all matches ive done with my teams i have all the casters know that if they are getting spiked all they need to do is run into me... i am able to target that ally at that point and simply follow them around casting my encahnts removing them with my sig setting off the effects of the enchants and the sig is healing my ally... so essentially im piggy backing the most focused on profs which they are leading me around where i need to be keeping them covered doing all my dmg and keeping them allive...

this is actually a very good use of the build... pretty much a caster body guard...

as for your other builds... good luck with them... I have done tons of testing with all mentioned there and I have found what i believe to be the most effective of this style Dervish...I enjoy playing it a lot in pve and pvp... the build does shine more so than what is percieved... but its ok, it just might be because of how different it needs to be played as a melee range dmger than what has been used for the past 2 years...

a really good way to practice with this build is when agroing a PvE mob say Kornans... go for the priests and tag them around while everything else is tackling you... I wait for my oportunities when they have to stop to cast...

in PvP if your on the healer and they have to keep moving that means i keeping them from healing and if they stop to heal that means im gonna get my way with them... its about pressure... while that healer is trying to kite me off his buddy warriors are getting a nasty taste of all my conditions and dmg as im right on his tale meanwhile the rest of my party is enjoying being able to take others out without much healing or bonding negating their dmg

and the build is damn sturdy... what a lot keep forgeting is there are way more ways to win pvp battles than outdamaging everyone else...

i would consider the build "balanced" and a decent "pressure" build

build doesnt work as well in RA as it does in TA/GvG/HA... as your team usually has little pvp experience and they themselves are setup as high dmg without any other balance

jesh

12-14-2006, 02:50 AM

re-read your posts... all of the arguements you make against the echanter have absolute affect on the Scythe as well...
Take your own advice and read over what I said, again and again, until it sinks in.
You cant just say well your enchanter is screwed by pin down (cripple) and not realize that so is your Scythe Derv...
Read: HEX AND CONDITION REMOVAL - *Gasp* Which you'd be crazy not to do on a dervish - also;
The difference is, any build that takes advantage of the dervish as a melee class will have ways to deal with kiters and an IAS, ...
How many times do I have to repeat myself for you to understand? We'll keep count. 2 so far.
You also can't say that its easier to smash sandstorm than to link a Scythe spike and then turn around and comment how its easier to c+space as Scythe Derv than to use enchantments without seeing the condradictions you are making...
I made no such claim. I said that even the PIDDLY damage of C+Space compares with your build, which is very sad. Attack skills, IAS skills, and other skills that indirectly affect damage, like hex/condition removal, will boost a good scythe build way above what you can do with a build like is posted here.

And you can't call people stupid to actually make a valid point without realizing you made no point at all except that your the ignorant one.
Funny, I don't recall insulting anyone. But thanks for the personal attack. :)

you also continue to discredit because of your untested opinions, which I'm sorry has absolutely no merit...
Alright then, how about you get someone like Ensign to compare the numbers here?

I’m don’t want to get into the discussion about whether or not a scythe build will do more damage. And the “tone” of that discussion is not very productive. I personally think that this build is not that great in most forms of PvP because a) it needs to almost completely fill up with enchants to be effective, and b) PvP almost requires a little more self-utility than this (running speed boosts, interrupts, condition removals, hex removals, etc). I think this is probably a very viable build for RA, and I’m thinking of some very cool variations that can be used in Hero Battles.
This is exactly what I was saying. RA all you want, but this is not an "awesome" build.

I stand by my stance that this build is nothing but a bad spiker, and only worthwhile in RA or PvE. Let's comprimise, shall we?

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/4739/compromiseki6.jpg

PS - If you're looking for a good scythe build to run against this in comparison, Lordhelmos has posted a bunch in the Dervish forums here that work excellent.

ogami_ito

12-14-2006, 04:26 AM

I stand by my stance that this build is nothing but a bad spiker, and only worthwhile in RA or PvE. Let's comprimise, shall we?

My Wild Blow ends your stance.

Uh...nevermind. I have no life.

Taini

12-14-2006, 08:03 AM

As a "close to 100% PvE" player I find this build realy intresting..
It definetly gets a "save to template"...
As sec tank in group I would go with a Scythe today.. But with this build id speed upp the killing 4sure.. I use the Totem Axe and Exhalted Aegis today for running.. nice to have other uses for them...

Many thanks..

And.. dont listen to the whiners.. if this was a case of anything else than guys with tiny pekkers they would'nt have posted in this thread.. :D
WHO THE HELL ARE YOU SAVING BY SAYING THIS BUILD SUCKS??? (basicly) :o
I cant se the point.. newcomers spending cash/factions on skills?? Is that it??

Haha omg im gonna get the whip for this one!! :p

jesh

12-14-2006, 12:38 PM

My Wild Blow ends your stance.

My little brother was telling me like how his teacher at school was marking kids down for cheating.. both the cheater and the person being cheated off of. And then he was like, "And everyone around both of them... All nearby foes!"
I laughed so hard. XD

Beat_Go_Stick

12-14-2006, 03:30 PM

My little brother was telling me like how his teacher at school was marking kids down for cheating.. both the cheater and the person being cheated off of. And then he was like, "And everyone around both of them... All nearby foes!"
I laughed so hard. XD

Little brother? He'd have to be, what, 11 or less right? :P

Try not being an arse about your opinions. It works just as many wonders online as it does in the world outside the internet ;)

The Campfire
PvE Builds and Discussion
Share your strategies, experience and tips here for builds and groups for PvE.

In PvE, this is a great build. Defensive yet mid-high damage vs. the AI enemy. An interesting twist for those who don't like seeing the scythe animation over and over and over throughout the whole game. It's inventive and effective. No need to be a jerk.

In PvP, he's already stated that he really only tested it in RA and that he didn't consider it a real PvP test. He also agreed that it was not a build for high end PvP so I don't really know what more you'd want from him aside from an outlet for your aggression.

Just take a deep breath and relax. There's no reason to prove John Gabriel correct here (not that it needs any more proof to be true in any case).

jesh

12-14-2006, 03:56 PM

I'm sorry, I feel the need to respond when I see things that are obviously untrue on forums, where unsuspecting new players can read them and take them for fact. I'm not whining, I'm not making personal attacks, (like a few other people are), I'm simply pointing out fallacies in what's been written. People take offense to that, I guess, because they're wrong.

I beat your 600dmg and not just by a little.
i asked them to throw away their green end-game sycthe XDDD)
since then and abandoned the Scythe line completely. Blows the current build out of the water

I have tried many of the dervish builds in this forum but their build cannot give very high damage. After some invesgation i found that the problem is dued to the using of sycthe :
i) the damage of sycthe is low,
ii) the speed of sycthe is low,
iii) many enemies have high physical defense,
iv) enemies can block your physical attack,
v) too little enemies got hit by sycthe

It make me wanna cry that the overall damage of dervish is so poor.

Sinican's build is really good that it
1) give high damage,
2) give me many en to cast spells not-stoply,
3) quite easy to survice in many cases(coz the enemis got blinded)

.......... I have tested it in CH2 & 3 and I think it is a really good damage dealer.

These are flawed statements, and what I quoted up in my first post in this thead are also, for reasons I've discussed. Want me to post something more constructive? Fine.

*Use an elite.
*Drop the warrior secondary, you can still use a shield at half benefit like so many Mo/As do.
*Take a skill like Aura of Displacement or Shadow Prison, this will help prevent kiting and increase your actual damage ouput.
*AoD has the advantage of acting as an enchant for Mystic Sandstorm.
*Fit in a res somehow.

P.S.

Try not being an arse about your opinions.

There aren't really opinions when discussing Guild Wars builds. Almost everything can be proven through math.

The exceptions are where you have something that can't be quantified, like hex removal, or the effect of a cripshot ranger on an enemy team. The effect of a speed boost skill on a kiting target..

When saying something like, "my dervish pbaoe build is better than using a scythe", you can't just take it as opinion. This can be proven/disproven with simple math.

Saider maul

12-14-2006, 04:15 PM

I'm going to stay out of the arguing because i know when and where this build was first posted and By whom. This build was put together during the first preview Based off the CoPway Dervish that destroyed halls during beta testing.

I see 1 major flaw and 1 possible minor one.

Major flaw.....is signet of poise light. good yes But I draw your attention to ViM. With Victory is mine you yeild an additional 20-25e and 160-200hp.
This now makes everything on your bar spammable.

Possible minor flaw. Dust cloak. its good if your team need anti melee conditions but its earth dmg. If you do not need to spec for melee then zealous renewal is a better choice. it is holy dmg and it yeilds energy when it ends based on number of hits you make.

But ty for the post. Hope you try my suggestions.

Enjoy.

Beat_Go_Stick

12-14-2006, 05:23 PM

kirch1jt

12-14-2006, 06:12 PM

im not claiming i was the creator either(i can 100% say i was not), im just saying i have seen a better way to run this and it IS posted already in these forums (back in september like i said). ViM

sinican

12-14-2006, 06:23 PM

I'm going to stay out of the arguing because i know when and where this build was first posted and By whom. This build was put together during the first preview Based off the CoPway Dervish that destroyed halls during beta testing.

thats something I didn't know.. nice to know, thanks

I see 1 major flaw and 1 possible minor one.

Major flaw.....is signet of poise light. good yes But I draw your attention to ViM. With Victory is mine you yeild an additional 20-25e and 160-200hp.
This now makes everything on your bar spammable.

already attempted such a variation for PvP play...

however, the best way that I had suggested to play the build really uses the signet to its fullest... in all ways possible... the signet serves as a main key to releaseing enchants when you want them to be released not when they expire or removed by someone else(the origional version i posted in this thread used attacks to release them but since my move to dismis depending on actual melee dmg this was no longer the case]... the signet also provides a no energy requirement to release enchants and to heal at the same time and not just myself but also my teamates... the signet is 0 recharge as long as it removes an enchant... it really is essential in this version of the build... and compared to ViM, the signets healing is better has faster recharge and cost 0e to activate and since it removes an enchant it returns energy as well and faster based on how many enchants i remove with it back to back... the flaw in the signet though as i see it is that it IS interuptable and without it, it does hurt

Possible minor flaw. Dust cloak. its good if your team need anti melee conditions but its earth dmg. If you do not need to spec for melee then zealous renewal is a better choice. it is holy dmg and it yeilds energy when it ends based on number of hits you make.

for me based on how i play and usually haveing a bunch of meleers/rangers on my back trying to protect their healers or attempting to interupt me etc Dusk cloaks ability to "blind" is my major benefit from the skill and its ability to not just blind a single target but all those wacking on me (this really messes up thumppers and assassins as does any melee weapon person)...

was running Zealous though before i decided dust cloak... also another reason zealous just really doesnt seem to work in this build is because the build isn't actually hitting with a weapon hardly at all.. energy already isnt a problem which allows the spells to be cast continuosely... also the dependance on being able to hit is a problem with zealous (being blinded/blocked/evaded was my concern)

But ty for the post. Hope you try my suggestions.

Enjoy.

thank you for the suggestions... im sorry they don't help me any :(... wish they could have... just not usefull for how i play the build... they are still great suggestions if used for a Scythe/Enchant dervish...

like using... Pious assult, dropping dust for zealous and the signet for ViM... but then id also consider dropping staggering for Heart of Fury

with 10 in Scythe, 12 in earth, 15 in mysticism

tried that build too :P, I like it as well but just enjoy not depending on hiting things with my weapon and I enjoy the much higher defence capabilies as well as a controlable AoE dmg/condtions that aid everyone not just myself...

see to many other Dervishes in PvP going down way to fast for my liking...

jesh

12-14-2006, 06:42 PM

I think ViM worked on all foes in the area with conditions back then.. since then it's been changed to only the one you have targeted. It was much better before October 25th.

Saider maul

12-14-2006, 08:11 PM

I see no change from ViM. My gain is still capped by the size of my bars 99% of the time. so the " nerf " didn't have the desired effect.

I also do not use a scythe. hate them for the most part. i use basically a FFS with crip/+5al mods and a +12+15-1e regen +30hp offhand. my base energy is 45. I can't complain.

jesh

12-15-2006, 01:31 AM

Well before it got changed, ViM would fill you past your bars.. I'm sure I'm not the only one who noticed this, and didn't want to say anything. >.>;

I think my record was something like 1100 hp and I forget how much energy, this was playing on a warrior, not a dervish.

Taini

12-15-2006, 02:10 AM

I see no change from ViM. My gain is still capped by the size of my bars 99% of the time. so the " nerf " didn't have the desired effect.

Would any of you say that ViM is a easier way to start playing this build??
If one hasent laid down the: "If this happens, i need to pious light once, then add this.. not that.." and so forth??
Sound to mee like ViM would be a great hp/energy mangement for a D/W enchant-bomber firsttimer like myself? Only issue is switching target to one who just got the bomb in the mail? :ninja: no? :D

sinican

12-15-2006, 07:34 AM

Would any of you say that ViM is a easier way to start playing this build??
If one hasent laid down the: "If this happens, i need to pious light once, then add this.. not that.." and so forth??
Sound to mee like ViM would be a great hp/energy mangement for a D/W enchant-bomber firsttimer like myself? Only issue is switching target to one who just got the bomb in the mail? :ninja: no? :D

My opinion is no...

I already stated the reasons for this...

-signet releases an enchantment, it is something you want to do to apply the effect of an enchant you just applied
-signet instantly recharge which allows you to cast another enchant imediately and reuse it again
-signet is 0 energy cost

but, it is always your choice... i find that the energy cost, recharge time, and won't remove an enchant is what make ViM not as desired for the playstyle of the build...

good use of the build is to prep with HoHf, Regen, Boon... then run in for your target cast dust cloak and imediately remove with signet then cast thorns, release with signet (or the reverse in some situations) then cast staggering then hit sandstorm...

after your first sandstorm signet helps manage your energy and health while building up 4 enchants before smashing sandstorm again...and under a lot of pressure casting an enchant then signet then enchant then signet then enchant then signet... keeps you allive,regain energy, and doing dmg, and applying effects (such as blinding your foes and weakening their melee attacks)

kirch1jt

12-15-2006, 09:33 AM

i just dont see the signet helping that much, it takes away from your spammability of myst sandstrm, ms is your spike and the sig kills your spike, sure it heals and gives some energy but then wheres you big 130 dmg spike. I say spike em, and then ViM at the right time and your bars stay full you then maximize ms and still have a good heal and energy gain without the sacrifice of your spike, but if thats what works for you go for it. not everyone has the same play style though, maybe we should all team up on a AB team or something and do some crazy spikes to opposing mobs, lol

DeanBB

12-15-2006, 11:03 AM

I tried it in PvE and the problem I had was the constantly moving and scattering foes. Yes, there were times when I'd catch some grouped but by and large I was hitting 1 at a time, and there are better builds for that.

Or I'd be set to trigger an AoE and the foe would move on me, wasting it. At least with scythe attacks I follow and still hit them.

Saider maul

12-15-2006, 04:28 PM

the stick and move does take some skill to get used to but once you get used to it you know how to position yourself.

Yes i know what viM used to do i was saying that my gain was still capped by my bar. what good is hp and energy you cant use?

I am not saying signet is bad i am saying it has its own purpose and turns the " mage-bomb " into a DoT build rather then a spike.

But to each their own.

sinican

12-15-2006, 06:06 PM

ok going to try adn respond top the previous 3 posts simultaniousely...

optimal Play style of this build is not to spam sandstorm... the playstyle is high pressure dmg with a spike while tanking... the signet is needed not for healing as the primary ability but to release enchants when they need to be released...Dust cloak for example if triggered and released blinds everyone around you... which keeps you from getting interupted and taking massive dmg... staggering weakins all arround you which means you take less dmg from all melee attacks... you only need 4 enchants before wacking sandstorm... and the recharge times on your enchants aren't always available for spamming sandstorm every 8 seconds in the first place... however using your signet for casting and releasing dust and staggering while stacking enchants and releasing sandstorm which allows for perfect timing in the first place... keeps you alive as a bonus... it is very hard to kill this build except by certain profs like necros and messies... removing the signet really cripples that ability

if you want higher single target dmg then really the build and the playstyle for this build are not for you... this isnt the type of build where you just spam your skill bar without meaning... each skill in the build has its own purpose other than feeding sandstorm... otherwise the build would have any old enchants in it at all 5e costs and quick recharges and of Corse ViM...

also knowing or learning how to control agro is helpfull in any build you run... this build is meant for large agro.. and for it to work well you have to know how to clump your AI victims... in PvP its not realy a problem because the people coming after you typically dont run at all and you can tank their dmg...

I think what people are really having a problem with is how to play the build... its very different than normal... and is alot like farming ALOT... mater of fact this build can actually solo farm many places...

it is alot like being a touch ranger as well(except its AoE style touching).. you are going to c+space to stick to your primary target after clustering a group let your c+space keep you on them if they are running...

I am not getting angry and I hope im not insulting anyone... it really is a unique build that does require a unique way to play it... but once you get controll of that it is "amazing" as i stated...

some of you may need to go up against this build in PvP to see whats going on with it... some may need to be shown how to play with it... its harder to explain than show...

but the point all here is... you all are free to change skills if that is what you want to do... but it doesn not play the same way... i have been through ALL secondaries tuning this build up.. i have made a major attribute change to this making it a pure derv and 2 variants of a single skill swap... at this point in time i am not ready to post about it... but the skills listed and such for the build are what works the best for how the build was intended to be played... if you have a different playstyle that completely changes the build's effectivness as is and yes there is going to be a better build to fit how you play... if you can learn how to play this build the way i concieved it though i think youd really understand why the skills are what they are...

Huntster

12-19-2006, 01:29 PM

I am wondering how you manage your energy with this build. I am a newbie dervish player but I thought you only gained e back from high mysticism if the enchantments ends not being rended?

Saider maul

12-19-2006, 04:43 PM

it it is removed it ends. thats why a grenth is so fun to play with.

kirch1jt

12-20-2006, 08:45 AM

i wouldnt say my playstyle is to spam m.sandstrom, if you do you'll only be stripping a couple enchantments at a time. I feel im waiting for more enchantments to recharge, so sandstorm is delayed. So using Signet of Pious Light would delay good usage of your spike even more. Im sure it proabaly evens out, 1 way kills quicker the other makes you even more of a tank but kill a bit slower.

The Muffen Man

12-20-2006, 11:19 AM

Theres no elite in this build why?

Taini

02-23-2007, 02:30 AM

First off.. Let me apologize for bumping such an old post..
But.. I have some related questions..

Ive been inactive for a few moths and have been reading about some "Nerfs" to different proffessions.. like the Paragon.. :(

My main question is.. has anything happened that affects this build?
I ran the +10 axe mastery one and felt quite happy about the way it worked..
Altenating ViM with SoPL depending on Soloing or playing in a party that had a main tank...

Sec Q: Has there been any major improvements to it?

Also.. Any new items that helps? I used a 12 + 15 -1 +45hp(enchant) offhand..

Cheers..

African War Lord

02-23-2007, 02:43 PM

I fought one of these dervs yesterday 2 rounds in a row. Both times he came after me and both times I killed him. The first time was harder cause he had a monk backing him but the second round was easy as pie.

Not saying your build is bad and I could see how he would cause trouble to warriors and sins but my build under the post ele pressure!!! takes care of most of these guys with little trouble. I'll say this though he did more damage to me than most anyone ever does.

He got our whole team almost at 50% health and bleeding but he was still killed. I don't know why we were all standing together lol..

Taini

02-26-2007, 04:27 AM

I'll say this though he did more damage to me than most anyone ever does.

He got our whole team almost at 50% health and bleeding but he was still killed. I don't know why we were all standing together lol..

For starters Id like to thank you fort replying to this old topic..
My question is based on a PvE perspective.. I almost never play PvP.. :(

The amount of dmg this build does to a group to me, Far mor intresting than any single foe dmg.

Althoug.. a guild buddy of mine has started to use the Virulence spiker build from the wiki.. I just can't wait to try the Fragility and Virulence combo with this build..

Kyuuba

03-04-2007, 03:41 PM

"dervish bombs" are indeed becoming common.
I personally like using them myself in pvp either to solo farm (zaishen challenge) faction or have some fun in arenas.
they work well farming monsters in game too.
Their survivability and tanking ability is great as well as the damage.
energy is a slight problem but usually only 2-3 cycles of enchanting and everything should be dead.
i like to use radiant armor with earth rune, mysticism rune, vigor rune, 2 attunement runes and a +10 staff with +5 energy inscript +5 energy head
i usually do not have any energy problems for the first few bomb cycles.

multi killer n l

03-27-2007, 05:45 AM

in random arenas i fought some1 in with this build he really soloed (the other were dead) all four of us we wernt that good but we had a monk an assa warrior and elementalist but we didnt even came half its hp really awesome im going to make 1 of these as well :)

GourangaPizza

03-27-2007, 08:18 AM

Wouldn't it be better to go D/A, since you are using a non-req shield and an energy weapon? You could free up 1 slot for death's charge or shadow prison for a definite kill on your target, since this build functions almost identical to an E/A bomb.

.Unanimous.

03-30-2007, 01:59 PM

ok, answer these when ever you can.
First of all; Hassin's shell, now i know this is just luck of the draw but 23 times and no drop? now that's just depressing. :(

Secondly; Rajazan's Ferver. I havn't found this being sold ANYWHERE :confused: but if it is sold, how much does it go for?

Thanks, i'm just a bit hyped up about being grinded toa halt in this build. i'l keep checking up for answers and if you need me i'll be killing hassin softskin again and again and again. :D

Mr Pink57

04-02-2007, 01:19 PM

I use a D/W and love it, I find it to be very fun. My main problem with the Scythe is it is too slow however it does great AoE when used properly. Things like crippling sweep can devastate casters if they are bunched together. However I use a Totem Axe with a Serrated Sheild req 9 tactics -2 dmg in stance +30 health (GOTY edition bonus item). Which is hard to do some AoE damage with but find using Cyclone Axe or Zealous Renewal for energy management can help that a bit. Also I am a lvl 16 derv and avg about -50 a hit so it does well. Also for armor I use max Elonian with full Radiant Insignias, Superior Rune of Mysticism/Earth Prayers, and 3 Major Runes of Vitae. This keeps my energy at about 43 and with vital boon my health gets to a little over 400 right now with +9 health regen with all enchants (10 in mysticism). I have had a few PvE char strip enchants but find myself with just more health and easily recoverable.

Also I have found with a D/W you can get a decent run build, not as good as a D/A but close. I did a few test runs at lvl 13 from LA to Yaks and did in fact make it with a little help from other runners (I died 3 times). I also ran from Yaks to Ascalon with ease.

Just sharing my expierence with the D/W and the fun it brings. I also have a Echo Nuker but find this to be much more fun.

pink