Hero Battles: Evaluation Post-Weekend

[Zinger314]

Most serious people didn't want to try Hero Battles this weekend. They were too busy running the lame holding build in Heroes' Ascent. However, for those who tried Hero Battles this weekend, they found a new and interesting PvP type.

However, if ArenaNet want to keep people playing Hero Battles, they will need to:


Keep the doubled faction. Even during the weekend, I made more Faction in Heroes' Ascent! For each [complete] win in Hero Battle during the double weekend, you made a total of 1000 Faction. For winning the Underworld flawlessly, you get about 700 faction. But atleast you can actually complete a match in Heroes' Ascent...

Add incentive, like Fame or Gladiator points. I was shocked that ArenaNet didn't do it on release. Why else would people do Hero Battles besides fun? (stupid question, but important). They also stated that there would be a Ladder (it's in the instruction manual, IIRC), but that never happened.


With that, here are a few comments about Hero battles, for those who care:


DO NOT USE PVE HERO BUILD! I would think that would be obvious, but you'd be surprised.

Characters without 2 defensive characters (Dunkoro + Talkhora or Dunkoro/Talkhora + Morgahn) will usually lose. There are too many ways to upload large amounts of spike damage. One Hero isn't smart enough to handle that.

Defensive characters are a poor choice as PC. I've never died against a Monk or Paragon PC. (Rits are the exception, see below). The main reason: It's impossible to organize a focus fire while playing a defensive character. Focus fire is extremely important, especially against a team with 2 defensice characters.

Too much ragequitting. Half my matches were ragequits after I wiped their team. And unlike RA, where the match just continues, the match stops, which is frustrating.

Central altar is overrated. It grants points way too slow. It should only be used to break stalemates. If you have the oppertunity to annihilate the opposing squad, do it, and ignore the central altar.

The NPC shrines are a must capture for one reason: They break stalemates. If both teams are fighting around the Central altar, the team with the NPC will take it.

Divide and conquer! At the begginign of a match, I usually send 2 people to an altar to cap, while a Monk and I go cap another altar. You aren't given the tactical commands for Heroes for nothing...

Don't be defensive, be aggresive! If a squad is just staying at the Central altar, you are able to cap every bonus altar, and eventually pummel the other squad down with the bonuses.


Now, for the two builds which I loathe:


Spirit Spammer PC + 2 Monks. Your team's AI cannot handle a proper spirit nest. If they charge in, they will usually be shut down by Dissonace and Wanderlust. As such, the "good defense is a strong offense" doesn't apply here. You'll need to work your way around the nest.

Runner PC + 3 Defensive characters. Thankfully, I only saw this once. This is the equivilent of putting 4 Monks in a TA team. One runner will solo-cap all the shrines (with Sprint and "You Will Die!", i.e. it's difficult to catch him), while the 3 defensive characters sit on the Central altar, near impossible to kill. He wins just by morale alone. This kind of build takes the spirit from the game.


I won about 30 or so games the entire weekend (half of those are rage-quit victories), and I lost only about 2-3 games (against the aforementioned builds). I was playing under "Avatar of Calculus." :D

So, will Hero Battles make it?

[Thomas.knbk]

Yeah, the ragequitting is totally lame. People woll often leave when they're behind 7-0 or so. In the end, you only get 10 faction for each kill instead of a victory bonus like with every other type of PvP. One time, someone left at 2-0, so I got 100 faction for that match...geez, thanks:S

[TheOneMephisto]

Runner PC + 3 Defensive characters. Thankfully, I only saw this once. This is the equivilent of putting 4 Monks in a TA team. One runner will solo-cap all the shrines (with Sprint and "You Will Die!", i.e. it's difficult to catch him), while the 3 defensive characters sit on the Central altar, near impossible to kill. He wins just by morale alone. This kind of build takes the spirit from the game.
Interesting, as I was playing a similiar build to this the weekend for faction farming. Playing a shadow of haste assassin + 2 monks + paragon was actually great fun. It makes it so that I don't have to deal with my heros (my heros could stand up to 95% of teams 3v4 without taking any deaths), and I could just cap the merc shrine, come back, and go train one of their monks with YAA until he dies. Even though it was super defensive, I still could get kills against most teams.

I basically enjoyed this build because I hate micromanaging heros, and it places a lot of emphasis on individual dueling skill and maneuvering for the merc shrine, avoiding 4v1s, and stalling. It's surprising how many time I could run their entire team around 4v1 while my heros won with morale. However, I have to say that I got many many more ragequits than you, about 1/3 of my games actually went to the time limit/20 points.

And IMO, don't listen to his "don't play certain builds." Play2Win or play what's funnest for you. In GvG or TA it makes a difference, because you won't improve with playing certain builds. GvG it's obvious because that is the point of this game, but TA also helps many of the skills for GvG. However, you will learn little to nothing playing Hero vs Hero, and my type of build actually allows you to practice dueling.

[Divineshadows]

Runner PC + 3 Defensive characters. Thankfully, I only saw this once. This is the equivilent of putting 4 Monks in a TA team. One runner will solo-cap all the shrines (with Sprint and "You Will Die!", i.e. it's difficult to catch him), while the 3 defensive characters sit on the Central altar, near impossible to kill. He wins just by morale alone. This kind of build takes the spirit from the game.


I saw this several times. Lost to it quite miserably 2 or 3 times because there was simply no way to rip away the center altar and grinding out just one kill on one of the 2 monks would take several minutes. Beat it once by stationing my necromancer at the seige cannon shrine to prevent his assassin from taking it (my necro could solo his assassin) and just fought 3v3 at the center shrine with seiges coming in damaging 3 of his heroes for 100 damage each while he ran around wondering what the hell to do with his assassin. Albeit, his 2 monk heroes bar were mediocre (a ZB and a glimmer of light were the elites which is not optimal IMO and the non-elite skills selected were also sub-optimal). Had the monks been properly constructed or had he been more productive with the assassin he was playing, then there would still have been no way for me to win. Wised up and just quit out whenever facing this type of hero build while the score was still 0-0.

I played probably around somewhere around 75 hero battles this weekend and I honestly feel that the 3 defensive characters plus offensive character with outmanuevering capabilities is the "optimal" team for hero battles. In game theory terms, I would call this team setup the dominant strategy. The typical setup for the 3 defensive characters typically is 2 monks plus any character that can shutdown or reduce enough of the opposition's offense. Good examples of such characters include:

- Paragon with energizing finale, watch yourself, stand your ground (optional), aria of zeal (optional), and either incoming or angelic bond. This type of character reduces damage and basically makes it impossible to pressure the 2 monks out of energy. The character provides some damage, but it is in a limited support role of assisting of the mobile offensive character on spikes.

- Ranger with some anti-melee skills and some anti-caster skills. Distracting shot is a must. A few different flavors include cripshot (crippling shot, apply poison, savage shot, distracting shot, debilitating shot, other skills vary), ebon dust ranger (ebon dust aura, distracting shot, savage shot, called shot, other skills vary), and a trapper (oath shot, distracting shot, barbed trap, dust trap, snare, throw dirt, other skills vary). Basically the ranger functions to shutdown enough of the opponent's offense through interrupts and blind/cripple conditions that the 2 monks can clean up the rest. Apply poison is commonly used to cover conditions and apply a bit of pressure.

Other options aside from a paragon or a ranger can be used as the 3rd defensive character, but few are flexible enough to ensure enough shutdown on both melee based, caster based (i.e. searing flames), or mixed offenses.

The sole offensive player is almost always an assassin with a speed boost and is the player character rather than a hero. The better players almost always go A/W for burst of aggression and sometimes wild blow. Speed buffs include shadow of haste and/or dash. For extra annoyance to the opposition, the player packs recall to instantly re-join their 3 hero defensive team at the center shrine. Elite choices are typically shadow prison or shove. Feigned neutrality is almost always on the skill bar of this type of character.

The concept of this build is not actually to score kills, but to hold the center altar to gain points and use the mobile character to maintain the side altars (particularly the mercenary altar or seige cannon altar) as often as possible. Against very poorly constructed teams, I am sure this build does score some kills slowly. Against well constructed teams, this build does not score any kills period and just waits 10 minutes to score 20 points from holding the center altar.

While I do feel that this type of team setup is the optimal/dominant strategy for winning matches given the heroes battle, I do not feel that it equates to the optimal strategy for faction gain per hour provided that the player recognizes quickly if their opponent is running this defensive crap and quits out before the match starts or within 30 seconds into the match whenever they are.

I took this approach for maximizing my faction gain per hour. On the 2 out of 4 maps where I could see my opponent before the match started, I would quit out immediately if I saw 2 monks plus an assassin plus a paragon or a ranger (unless it was a R/W with a pet signaling to me that it is likely a thumper, because I could beat 2 monks and 2 melee as it is not nearly as defensive). On the other 2 maps where you cannot see your opponent from the start, I would know within the first 30 seconds if my opponent is potentially running such a highly defensive build and quit out at this point. While some of these teams could have had terrible monk builds that I could still steamroll, it was simply not worth the risk of wasting 10 minutes of time to lose 20 to 10 (or sometimes downward towards 2 depending on the strength of their monk builds) to find out.

There were two builds I attempted to play in hero battles over the weekend. One was a condition overload in which I played an anti-melee ebon dust ranger. This did not work out very well, because the heroes target whatever you are targetting. Playing an anti-melee I constantly had to rotate between 2 (sometimes 3 when the opposition had the dervish mercenary) targets constantly and really never had time to target the enemy monk (and hence my offensive heroes would not target the monk).

The other build I played with much better success was a hex overload build
where I played a Rampage as One thumper:

14 beast, 12 hammer, 9 expertise

Rampage as One
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal
Irresistable Blow
Hammer Bash
Crushing Blow
Disrupting Lunge
Rez Sig

paired with:

14 soul reaping, 11 curses, 10 healing, 1 smite

Reaper's Mark
Faintheartedness
Parasitic Bond
Reckless Haste
Signet of Lost Souls
Gift of Health
Smite Hex
Rez Sig

16 water, 10 energy, 9 inspiration

Shatterstone
Vapor Blade
Blurred Vision
Ice Spikes
Frozen Burst
Glyph of Lesser Energy
Power Drain
Rez Sig

14 divine favor, 12 protection, 9 healing, 6 inspiration

Divert Hexes
Draw Conditions
Mending Touch
Reversal of Fortune
Gift of Health
Shield of Absorption
Signet of Devotion
Leech Signet

By switching targets often with this build, I can get the necro to cast reaper's mark and other degen hexes on mulitple members of the opposing team and have the ele snare and spike multiple targets. Once the degen has set in a bit, I go for a spike on an opposing monk. The necromancer assists my monk with spot healing using gift of health (usually the target of the gift is my monk) and assists with hex removal. Interrupts consist of bash, d-lunge, power drain and leech signet. This build focuses on overwhelming what the opponent can heal, but still has some elements of control to it with snares, anti-melee skills, and anti-caster skills. Also, the speed movement boost from rampage helped me capped side altars while my 3 heroes capped an altar such as the mercenary altar or the center altar. During the event, my faction gain averaged 7 to 8k per hour which I estimate is about 1 to 2k higher than the highly defensive dominant strategy build I so disdained because I could get to 20 against many teams within 2.5 minutes to 6 minutes. I much prefer a deathmatch style to a holding style of play, hence the build I selected. I would win several matches while letting my opponent hold all 4 altars and just repeatedly killing them over and over again while they scored points for holding the center altar. Against tougher teams, of course, I would make tactical plays that involved movement and altar capping but against most it was simply not necessary beyond the first minute of the match (during which I always took efforts to cap the side shrines and then the move toward the center). Against the really poor teams, I would end up in a position where I was camping their rez shrine (where the opposition would take 50% less damage and deal 50% more damage) and killing them as they rezzed.

Aside from the overly defensive 2 monk + defensive character + mobile character crap, the only other build that I lost to with my hex build were 3 E/Me each using Searing Flames, Glowing Gaze, Fire Attune, Glyph of Lesser, Liquid Flame or Meteor Shower, Power Drain, Leech Signet and Rez Sig plus a monk with decent to good hex removal such as blessed light or divert hexes. For some reason, I just could not get my heroes to spread the f*** out despite using flags to station them quite far apart. Somehow they would always end up clustered right back together and every time I looked all 3 of them would start burning and/or be taking damage from searing flames. Perhaps the issue was that I had all of my heroes set 'fight' instead of 'guard' or 'passive', but I didn't care too much as I only lost to the player that had 3 searing flames eles each with interrupts. Every other team I faced with 3 searing flames eles I beatdown faster than they could beat my team down (of course I still incurred multiple deaths and would win something like 20-16 or 20-12) despite my heroes acting retarded with respect to AoE and receiving multiple knockdowns from a meteor shower.

[unmatchedfury]

Dual monk teams were pretty easy to take out this weekend.
apparently people think that they're the shiznit, although they might be good against highly defensive teams they go down to snare, high dgen and pressure.

my team was

Rampage thumper with daze after knockdown skill ( me )
YAAhoo plaugetouching sword warrior ( hard to blind)
BiP MM with death nova, no minion heal, also had dual hex removal and sympathetic visage.
standard prot monk with tainted flesh ( used nec to keep monk BiP constantly)

due to massive conditions, light hexes from nec ( and get in the way factor of summons) high pressure from sword and thumper( plus yahoo cripple it was easy enough to resist pressure simply because i put out more dmg than the other team did. I faced dual monk rit teams, and although it was usually a close fight controlling the shrines and farcing splits is the best way to beat the teams

if they didnt split they lose center because of merc and your extra buffs.

split and the YAAhoo koss or rampage ganks quite well.
BiPed monk didn't run out of blue even with AI spammage

[Divineshadows]

Dual monk teams were pretty easy to take out this weekend.


Most, yes. Those that paired the two monks with 2 highly offensive (typically melee, but sometimes searing flames) characters still got rolled by good teams. See, the players that choose to build their team like this still maintained aspirations of actually being able to kill things. Those that paired it with a defensive enough 3rd character as I suggested in my previous post played a game of "ha, ha you can't kill me while I hold the center shrine, run around the map, and ignore you".


I faced dual monk rit teams


yes, I beat those type too. What's your point here? The rits were simply too easy to counter. Beat down their spirits with your hammer and pet, bash them when they summon their next round (especially the rit lord users to trigger longer recharges), and then proceed to beat the living crap out of their two monks once the rit has been neutralized in this way. You see, the rit was poor choice for a 3rd defensive character in this style of gameplay. Offensive rits using several offensive spirits including wunderlust provided more difficulty than the "defensive" rit, but were still dispatched of even with 2 monks. When 2 good monk builds get paired with a proper defensive 3rd character and a mobile player-controlled 4th character that does not allow themselves to get ganked you lose as they hold the center and you either go on a wild goose chase or flail at them at the center shrine and lose because you are hard pressed to even get one kill per minute. How to beat this type of team? Recognize it early and simply don't play them as they are a waste of time. Let the game end 0-0.

[furbat]

Most, yes. Those that paired the two monks with 2 highly offensive (typically melee, but sometimes searing flames) characters still got rolled by good teams. See, the players that choose to build their team like this still maintained aspirations of actually being able to kill things. Those that paired it with a defensive enough 3rd character as I suggested in my previous post played a game of "ha, ha you can't kill me while I hold the center shrine, run around the map, and ignore you".


I have been talking about this for a while. Most people in HvH suck so bad even with 2 monks they have zero defense. I made over 50k faction with out a loss before losing just a couple hours ago to this and have made over 400k in HvH so far, so I know what im talking about. I run YaA on my dervish on occasion just to deal with this.

You don't even need two monks, I run a paragon + monk + dervish with imbue health. Most teams can't score a kill through that. The teams that go 2 monks + assasin are impossible to beat unless you play a class that can solo the assasin.

It is still new enough that you can play for several hours and not come across this tactic, but those who play it well are very hard to take down. Most of the player sins are really bad though.

I really hate this, because there is no defense against this play style assuming evenly match players. I would really like to just see the center shrine removed. Before anyone comments, lose a match that you score 10 kills to their 0. If you cant take their sin, you can't win.

Maybe this is the way HvH was intended, but running around solo for the merc shrine is really borring imo.

[Divineshadows]

I really hate this, because there is no defense against this play style assuming evenly match players. I would really like to just see the center shrine removed. Before anyone comments, lose a match that you score 10 kills to their 0. If you cant take their sin, you can't win.


Then we agree that this is the dominant strategy for hero battles given the current format and skill balance (which is leaning ultra defensive anyway). However, you are wrong that there is no way to beat this without being able to solo their sin with your player character.

Your options include:

1. Play this build since it is the dominant strategy and outplay them assassin v. assassin.
2. If you don't like option 1, then you can play a strong build of your preference that is not overly defensive and simply quit out with 0-0 score anytime you detect the potential that someone is running this type of build.

[furbat]

4th character that does not allow themselves to get ganked you lose as they hold the center and you either go on a wild goose chase or flail at them at the center shrine and lose because you are hard pressed to even get one kill per minute. How to beat this type of team? Recognize it early and simply don't play them as they are a waste of time. Let the game end 0-0.

Actually you *can* win, IF you recognize it early enough and can score kills. But for the most part, there is no defense. You either play a sin + defense or hope you can take their runner out. If you can't you will lose when you face this.

I still dont think people understand what you are talking about. And yeah we agree. It sucks, no one cares about HvH so it prob wont be changed.

I started a thread sarcastically thanking A-net for making 1 build trump all, and had a bunch of responses on how to combat it by people who don't play HvH before the thread was locked. Wait 1 month and this will become more popular than SF builds.

The FIX is obvious change the center shrine to something else, like make it give morale boosts or something. Then if people want to play 0 offense builds they can get 0 faction.

[Thom]

I didn't play much this weekend, but I disagree with the idea that you need defensive characters (or anything really) to win regularly.

I have a lot of fun with three linebackers (me and the two warriors) with Zhed doing some snares and some heals. Linebackers can lock any three characters and Zhed's snares seal the deal. Even with no damage skills, you can cut through most teams like butter. Doesn't always work, but the amusement factor offsets the occasional warrior hate losses.

Who cares about splitting if you can completely dominate one half of the split before you can pull the split back together. In the time it takes for a single runner to grap a stand, you can score a kill on a defensive team and have control of the center altar.

[furbat]

You don't need to play full defense to win, I don't and I have made 400k in hero battles. But it is the dominant build, even if it isnt very popular yet.

[Divineshadows]

I didn't play much this weekend, but I disagree with the idea that you need defensive characters (or anything really) to win regularly.

I have a lot of fun with three linebackers (me and the two warriors) with Zhed doing some snares and some heals. Linebackers can lock any three characters and Zhed's snares seal the deal. Even with no damage skills, you can cut through most teams like butter. Doesn't always work, but the amusement factor offsets the occasional warrior hate losses.


I have never tried playing hero battles without a monk, since every team I had faced without a monk or with an air of enchant smite monk instead I still beat by at least a 10 point margin.

However, how do you get your two warrior heroes to attack different targets than you so that you are actually pressuring and knocking down 3 targets at once? Excessive knockdowns doesn't help if they are all attacking the same target.

[Senator Tom]

http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9944/heroesxi9.th.jpg (http://img180.imageshack.us/my.php?image=heroesxi9.jpg)

;)

[Zinger314]

I have never tried playing hero battles without a monk, since every team I had faced without a monk or with an air of enchant smite monk instead I still beat by at least a 10 point margin.

However, how do you get your two warrior heroes to attack different targets than you so that you are actually pressuring and knocking down 3 targets at once? Excessive knockdowns doesn't help if they are all attacking the same target.Use the "Lock" button on the Hero UI.

[mrdbeau]

My observations were a bit different from the past weekend.

I ran a life sheath monk build that I usually run in RA/TA and:

Koss - Standard Shock/Axe type build... not the best at all considering he shocks constantly, a rampager would be much better I'm sure.

Jin - Punishing Shot disrupter... found out that concussion shot is absolutely useless on the ranger as she never has enough energy to use it, even with full energy armor.

Souske - Initially, I was running him as a mesmer secondary with lightning strike/orb, some degen hexes, and ineptitude. It ran well, but I switched to Searing Flames eventually just because it kills even faster.

Overall, I didn't get to play as much as I would have liked to have, but I would say I ended up probably 20ish-2-2. I say 2 "ties," because I lagged out twice, both times when I was ahead.

One of my losses came against a defensive build with the solo runner. After I was down something like 1-5, I changed tactics and started spreading my heroes out and eventually killed the runner, then moved back and capped the center shrine when I obtained the NPC. I ended up coming back on him and lost by a point, 19-20. It was worth it to see, though. The other loss came against another balanced type build... just didn't manage my heroes well and the other guy was running a spiking sin that managed to kill me 2 or 3 times.

Overall, the strategy I employed was pretty much the same every game I played. I would initally send out Jin to either a health shrine or mending shrine (or whatever kind of shrine) while I would go with Koss and Souske to the merc shrine or siege cannon shrine. Very often, the opponent would cap the center shrine and come for my main group, and I would send Jin back to the center shrine where she'd cap it and then join me and help kill off the opposing team if I had not already done so. It worked well basically every time and there was no real weakness in doing that.

I played mostly scrubs, but I did beat a few high ranked people who were running good builds. With a PC running the monk, often times even against a good team, I could camp a shrine with souske and Koss and survive while Jin ran around and capped shrines. If the opp broke away to send someone to cap or fight Jin, I could then often kill whatever group I was fighting or Jin could kill the opposing char.

Rage quitting was a fairly common problem and I would often let an opp get 3-4 points out of the center shrine before I went and wiped the party. I found that often this made the opp think they would be able to come back because they gained the initial advantage and they'd stick around the whole match, or at least much longer than they would have if I'd just wiped them at the beginning.

I would very much like to see either a ladder/ranking system or at least some kind of title track for HvH. The gametype has great potential IMO but the level of competition is SO bad it really isn't even enjoyable at this point. Additionally, the rate of faction gain is slower than TA/HA and roughly comparable to RA, which gives little incentive to play for faction.

I believe HvH will "make it" in the sense that you may always be able to go there and get a match, but in the sense of it being any kind of "real" pvp gametype that would be enjoyable to play more often than once in a blue moon, I highly doubt. The addition of a ladder would be ideal and would likely bring quality players to the gametype, but even just a title track for HvH would improve the quality of players there on average.

Just a few thoughts...

[TheOneMephisto]

One thing, YAA on an assassin is amazing in hero battles for your solo assassin. I've been playing around with that, and a permanent ranged snare+weakness makes you almost unbeatable in 1v1.

[furbat]

One thing, YAA on an assassin is amazing in hero battles for your solo assassin. I've been playing around with that, and a permanent ranged snare+weakness makes you almost unbeatable in 1v1.

You dont even need to fight with your assasin. I was running YaA today, and was just beat 13 to 1 by an assasin with 2 monks and a paragon who just used recall when i ran to the merc shrine back to the center shrine, and maintained the center flag without ever fighting. Didnt score a single kill, and didnt even bother scirmishing me. Just teleported back and forth.

No defense against that.

I would really like someone to explain to me how this isnt broken.

[furbat]

One thing, YAA on an assassin is amazing in hero battles for your solo assassin. I've been playing around with that, and a permanent ranged snare+weakness makes you almost unbeatable in 1v1.

You dont even need to fight with your assasin. I was running YaA today, and was just beat 13 to 1 by an assasin with 2 monks and a paragon who just used recall when i ran to the merc shrine back to the center shrine, and maintained the center flag without ever fighting. Granted there is only one map where this is insanely powerfull, but still.

No defense against that.

[TheOneMephisto]

You dont even need to fight with your assasin. I was running YaA today, and was just beat 13 to 1 by an assasin with 2 monks and a paragon who just used recall when i ran to the merc shrine back to the center shrine, and maintained the center flag without ever fighting. Granted there is only one map where this is insanely powerfull, but still.

No defense against that.
Cap the merc and bring it back, pack maybe enchant removal to remove his recall or get someone to interrupt it as much as possible, cap the merc then go back and stall him on his way out so that he never gets to the merc shrine to recap it.

There's a lot of ways, you just seem like you didn't think of using some different tactics to maneuver him into a disadvantageous position.

[unmatchedfury]

I have been talking about this for a while. Most people in HvH suck so bad even with 2 monks they have zero defense. I made over 50k faction with out a loss before losing just a couple hours ago to this and have made over 400k in HvH so far, so I know what im talking about. I run YaA on my dervish on occasion just to deal with this.

You don't even need two monks, I run a paragon + monk + dervish with imbue health. Most teams can't score a kill through that. The teams that go 2 monks + assasin are impossible to beat unless you play a class that can solo the assasin.

It is still new enough that you can play for several hours and not come across this tactic, but those who play it well are very hard to take down. Most of the player sins are really bad though.

I really hate this, because there is no defense against this play style assuming evenly match players. I would really like to just see the center shrine removed. Before anyone comments, lose a match that you score 10 kills to their 0. If you cant take their sin, you can't win.

Maybe this is the way HvH was intended, but running around solo for the merc shrine is really borring imo.

so far I've not a had a problem with any team but good dervrish ones. sins are low armor and unless they abuse shadow form, they can easily enough be eliminated. with YAA they can be ignored and you can go for straight for the monks.

[unmatchedfury]

Most, yes. Those that paired the two monks with 2 highly offensive (typically melee, but sometimes searing flames) characters still got rolled by good teams. See, the players that choose to build their team like this still maintained aspirations of actually being able to kill things. Those that paired it with a defensive enough 3rd character as I suggested in my previous post played a game of "ha, ha you can't kill me while I hold the center shrine, run around the map, and ignore you".



yes, I beat those type too. What's your point here? The rits were simply too easy to counter. Beat down their spirits with your hammer and pet, bash them when they summon their next round (especially the rit lord users to trigger longer recharges), and then proceed to beat the living crap out of their two monks once the rit has been neutralized in this way. You see, the rit was poor choice for a 3rd defensive character in this style of gameplay. Offensive rits using several offensive spirits including wunderlust provided more difficulty than the "defensive" rit, but were still dispatched of even with 2 monks. When 2 good monk builds get paired with a proper defensive 3rd character and a mobile player-controlled 4th character that does not allow themselves to get ganked you lose as they hold the center and you either go on a wild goose chase or flail at them at the center shrine and lose because you are hard pressed to even get one kill per minute. How to beat this type of team? Recognize it early and simply don't play them as they are a waste of time. Let the game end 0-0.

merely pointing out that i havn't come across a strategy that could be called overpowered or uncounterable. THere's no reason to complain about any build as of yet. seems perfectly fair with no real suppiour strategies although many seem to think 2 monks is somehow "better"

and though i have lost I've enver been absolutley rolled with my current build. and i usually lost due to bad targ calling and positioning.

[racso]

Here are some reasons that I think make Heroes Battles so unpopular:

You have to set up your build and three more builds.
People usually are good in two or three classes, but not in four.
Game play is rather new and faction earnings is slow.
If your opponent quit, the match is over and no body wins factions (wtf?).
Most people need to unlock many runes and weapons upgrade for many classes.

[RandomEngy]

I go for a 2x thumper/ "Go for the Eyes!" paragon damage overload. It works pretty well at cutting through 2 monks and most matches go quickly. If people bring a lot of anti-melee and a decent amount of damage I lose, but I'm certain it's faster than HA for farming faction.

[furbat]

Cap the merc and bring it back, pack maybe enchant removal to remove his recall or get someone to interrupt it as much as possible, cap the merc then go back and stall him on his way out so that he never gets to the merc shrine to recap it.

There's a lot of ways, you just seem like you didn't think of using some different tactics to maneuver him into a disadvantageous position.

Its not realy about combat tactics like enchant removal or interrupts, and sending your entire team to cap shrines helps the build. On one map, there is no merc shrine so its not a problem, on two maps it comes down to beating them at their own game. On the final map, where there are bridges from the start to the merc shrine, the ability to teleport from the merc shrine to the centershrine gives a huge mobility advantage. So its a loss.

Now, the other option is to down 2 monks + paragon fast enough that you are killing on of their teammates on average every 30 seconds.

If you can make a build that can counter that, while not being gimp to ballanced builds which make up 95% of the meta, please do tell.

[Gli]

Here are some reasons that I think make Heroes Battles so unpopular:

You have to set up your build and three more builds.
People usually are good in two or three classes, but not in four.
Game play is rather new and faction earnings is slow.
If your opponent quit, the match is over and no body wins factions (wtf?).
Most people need to unlock many runes and weapons upgrade for many classes.

Add

Many people have no clue how to get there, and some who do have a clue (like me) don't want to delete a PvE character just to unlock the place.

[phasola]

It's ridiculously easy.
1 gank char take the shrines and send heroes to center. I got bored after 1 hour of this. I met some people twice or even 3 times and they raged after they saw me. :(
Why on earth would you black out your bar ? :\

[Divineshadows]

Now, the other option is to down 2 monks + paragon fast enough that you are killing on of their teammates on average every 30 seconds.

Yeah, this pretty much sums up how messed up the victory conditions are. It's like taking the TA setting and adding HA style dais to it. If I were asked to design a TA build whose sole purpose was to not die rather than to actually kill the opposition, then I could easily design a build in which my opponents would average a kill every two minutes or less independent of what type of offense they are running. This means my hypothetical TA team would still win, because my team is being awarded a point every 30 seconds for simply not dying.

Not only do hero battles mimic the HA dais style, you only have to go up against one other team!! You do not have to deal with two opponents attacking you at once. Given that there are certain HA builds at the moment that can easily fend off two teams at once for 4 minute spans, it is not such a leap that hero teams parked on the center dais can fend off a single team indefinately (but really only have to do so for 10 minutes to score 20 points) with a very very slow attrition rate. Not only this, the players auto-rez with no DP. Even a strong opposing offense given some bonuses cannot overcome a highly defensive team with enough expedience once that defensive team has been parked on the center dais.

Real PvP in Guild Wars has reasonable victory conditions that involve, I don't know, actually killing something instead of simply not dying. These forms of real PvP include GvG where you have to kill the opponent's guild lord or repeatedly kill (DP out) the other team, TA and RA where you have to kill the opposing team before they kill you, and the HA maps that do not have a dais. The hall of heroes map and hero battles have different rules and victory conditions and do not qualify as competitive PvP in my mind. Sure there is strategy involved in both of these -- the strategy being to stuff as much defense as possible into your build and just sit and wait to win. Anybody denying that this type of play is not optimal for both HoH and hero battles is either delusional or selling something (and I'm not going to buy what you're selling).

[TomD22]

I'm normally a gvg player, but i got bored today and tried hero battles for the first time. Made myself and 2 heroes solo ranger builds (R/D with degen, interrupts and cripple) and brought a glimmer of light hero monk. I played 5 matches. 4 of those I came up against humans playing ritualist spirit spammers.

First match, i split my heroes over the map, capped all the shrines but the one the opponent was camping, and then sat back, confident I would win. After all, I had 75% of the map and shrines under my control...I assumed that was roughly the idea, and that if he just camped and didn't cap, I'd win. I wasn't too keen to suicide into a spirit nest, obviously. So after a bit I notice that.....he's winning. All he has to do is camp that one shrine, and it's an auto-win. The others don't seem to matter at all.

The other matches were all identical...rit spirit spammers, camping one uber-shrine that made them win automatically just by holding it for a while. I tried attacking it, but my solo and split degen build rangers just get owned by spirits.

So am I missing something here? Is it really the case, that you can totally ignore the whole map except one shrine, and win it that way? Do you not need to split off and cap at all? I mean, if so, I'll bring 2 searing eles and 2 monks, and just camp that shrine myself (boring though).

[TomD22]

Doublepost ftl...this place really, really needs some more bandwidth.

[RandomEngy]

If they're making a spirit nest on the center shrine, you need to go kill that stuff right away. It's way, way easier to exterminate a nest as it's being built than to go and try to stop it after the fact. And if your ranger has savage/distracting, you can use a longbow to interrupt all the spirits before they're down. Once you've dealt with the spirits, they're fighting one man down and you can usually win out.

As for the 3 defensive/1 gank build I've played a whole lot of hero battles and rarely come across it. The times it did happen I was able to punch through the defense enough to gain points and hold the center shrine. Though I could see this being annoying if your build wasn't able to do this.

[Divineshadows]

As for the 3 defensive/1 gank build I've played a whole lot of hero battles and rarely come across it. The times it did happen I was able to punch through the defense enough to gain points and hold the center shrine. Though I could see this being annoying if your build wasn't able to do this.

Sounds like you came across poorly constructed ones. Either the 2 monks or the anti-melee had poor skills selected, poor attributes, or likely a combination of both.

[Horseman Of War]

ok what the hell RaRe. you got something against me or what.

i had a whole page of comments, suggestions, and critiques that I spent an hour on, and now its gone??

forum nazi's ftw.


anyways,
nice guide, blackblood. I think I remember fighting you this weekend- and Im pretty sure I whooped you like everyone else :)

my suggestion for victories (rather than increasing the faction - im running out of things to unlock very quickly...) ->

5 or 10 wins in a row should give you a trade contract. other than that all my post was doing was making fun of bonders and complaining about touchway and SFway.

[TomD22]

If they're making a spirit nest on the center shrine, you need to go kill that stuff right away. It's way, way easier to exterminate a nest as it's being built than to go and try to stop it after the fact. And if your ranger has savage/distracting, you can use a longbow to interrupt all the spirits before they're down. Once you've dealt with the spirits, they're fighting one man down and you can usually win out.

As for the 3 defensive/1 gank build I've played a whole lot of hero battles and rarely come across it. The times it did happen I was able to punch through the defense enough to gain points and hold the center shrine. Though I could see this being annoying if your build wasn't able to do this.

So it's true then? Taking that one shrine is the only way to win?

Guess it's time to chuck out the split build, and create myself a camping build then ^^

[TheOneMephisto]

As for the 3 defensive/1 gank build I've played a whole lot of hero battles and rarely come across it. The times it did happen I was able to punch through the defense enough to gain points and hold the center shrine. Though I could see this being annoying if your build wasn't able to do this.
If it was a really good build then I doubt that you'd be able to punch through.

I know that my build I was using consisted of a paragon with it's just a flesh wound and the standard motivation paragon bar with signet of synergy and hexbreaker aria, a GoL monk, and a ZB prot monk with GoH. Then entire team has watch yourself for higher defense, training the paragon is worthless due to high armor + shield, and training either of the monks is worthless since the prot monk just prots and whichever monk is trained then kites while GoLs and ZBs drop on him. Energy is fueled through leech signet and power drain, which also means that a good portion of caster offense is eliminated. It's just a flesh wound destroys condition builds (an instacast-RC on a character with tons of energy), hexbreaker aria + interrupts helps control hexes, lots of prots and heals destroy chain melee, etc. etc. I had a total of 1-2 teams manage to break my defense over the weekend, and one of those was on the catapult map (where maneuvering tactics are much worse).

Basically my build then breaks down to my personal skill at dueling, stalling, and maneuvering. Considering that YAA gives me an amazing edge vs any melee that try to come get me, and SoH + dash gives me a nice mobility edge, it's very hard to beat.

[TheOneMephisto]

So it's true then? Taking that one shrine is the only way to win?

Guess it's time to chuck out the split build, and create myself a camping build then ^^
Actually, getting kills also gets you points.

If you run into a build like that, it's worth noting that the mercenary counts as a person when capping the shrine, so if you go in there and keep everyone alive long enough you'll cap it if it's 5v4.

[FoxBat]

Runner PC + 3 Defensive characters. Thankfully, I only saw this once. This is the equivilent of putting 4 Monks in a TA team. One runner will solo-cap all the shrines (with Sprint and "You Will Die!", i.e. it's difficult to catch him), while the 3 defensive characters sit on the Central altar, near impossible to kill. He wins just by morale alone. This kind of build takes the spirit from the game.


Unlike in TA, this strategy actually wins. A hero ladder/title would only exacerbate this issue, hero battles cannot be taken seriously unless they are somehow altered to combat this.

[Divineshadows]

Here are my suggestions for making hero battles less like the hall of heroes map and more deathmatch style:

1. Change the "To the Pain!" effect in the vicinity of the center shrine from 10% more damage/10% less health to 25% more damage/25% less health to match the VoD mechanic in GvG. This would make it much more difficult to have a build that can just sit on the center shrine.

OR

2. Eliminate the mechanic of holding the center shrine awarding points. Assign some combat effect advantage to holding the center shrine similar to the health shrines or battle cry shrines.

OR

3. Add some additional environmental effect like unconditional cannon bombardment affect all within vicinity of the center shrine.

[mrdbeau]

Here are my suggestions for making hero battles less like the hall of heroes map and more deathmatch style:

1. Change the "To the Pain!" effect in the vicinity of the center shrine from 10% more damage/10% less health to 25% more damage/25% less health to match the VoD mechanic in GvG. This would make it much more difficult to have a build that can just sit on the center shrine.

OR

2. Eliminate the mechanic of holding the center shrine awarding points. Assign some combat effect advantage to holding the center shrine similar to the health shrines or battle cry shrines.

OR

3. Add some additional environmental effect like unconditional cannon bombardment affect all within vicinity of the center shrine.

Good suggestions, particularly the first one, IMO. If there was a mechanic closer to VOD around the center shrine, a camping build facing 3 strong dmg dealers would never survive.

The second and third ideas are not as good. I think number 3 would not necessarily prevent camping builds, as it is fairly easy to heal through 100 dmg every 10 seconds or whatever it is. When I was monking for my hero team, I sat on several bombardments and it wasn't a problem, even while fighting an opposing team at the same time. On top of that, I think awarding center shrine points is necessary or people will come with purely offensive builds and not even worry about holding shrines, when a good balanced build I think would be the most desirable thing for Anet to promote in hero battles.

[furbat]

Here are my suggestions for making hero battles less like the hall of heroes map and more deathmatch style:

1. Change the "To the Pain!" effect in the vicinity of the center shrine from 10% more damage/10% less health to 25% more damage/25% less health to match the VoD mechanic in GvG. This would make it much more difficult to have a build that can just sit on the center shrine.

OR

2. Eliminate the mechanic of holding the center shrine awarding points. Assign some combat effect advantage to holding the center shrine similar to the health shrines or battle cry shrines.

OR

3. Add some additional environmental effect like unconditional cannon bombardment affect all within vicinity of the center shrine.

Or how about this. Merc Shrines do not count as people, and center shrines grant a point on capture and reset themselves everytime they are captured. Thus, to score points you must constantly cap the shrine. This would stop players from capping points if both team were contesting the center shrine.

Other problems-- shrines should not effect spirits, especially health shrines.

[RandomEngy]

If it was a really good build then I doubt that you'd be able to punch through.

I know that my build I was using consisted of a paragon with it's just a flesh wound and the standard motivation paragon bar with signet of synergy and hexbreaker aria, a GoL monk, and a ZB prot monk with GoH. Then entire team has watch yourself for higher defense, training the paragon is worthless due to high armor + shield, and training either of the monks is worthless since the prot monk just prots and whichever monk is trained then kites while GoLs and ZBs drop on him. Energy is fueled through leech signet and power drain, which also means that a good portion of caster offense is eliminated. It's just a flesh wound destroys condition builds (an instacast-RC on a character with tons of energy), hexbreaker aria + interrupts helps control hexes, lots of prots and heals destroy chain melee, etc. etc. I had a total of 1-2 teams manage to break my defense over the weekend, and one of those was on the catapult map (where maneuvering tactics are much worse).

Basically my build then breaks down to my personal skill at dueling, stalling, and maneuvering. Considering that YAA gives me an amazing edge vs any melee that try to come get me, and SoH + dash gives me a nice mobility edge, it's very hard to beat.

I've been beaten by one 2-monk team, and that was a Spoil Victor build I didn't maneuver correctly for. But I don't know, your build could be different. In any event, effective camping teams are rare enough that I basically never see them. They also make for much slower games and thus slower faction gain.

Out of curiosity, what does your assassin use? YAA, SoH, dash, self heal, then what? I don't know of any particularly devastating 4-skill non-elite combos.

[TheOneMephisto]

I've been beaten by one 2-monk team, and that was a Spoil Victor build I didn't maneuver correctly for. But I don't know, your build could be different. In any event, effective camping teams are rare enough that I basically never see them. They also make for much slower games and thus slower faction gain.

Out of curiosity, what does your assassin use? YAA, SoH, dash, self heal, then what? I don't know of any particularly devastating 4-skill non-elite combos.
YAA, SoH, dash, feigned neutrality/shadow refuge, random lead attack (disrupting or leaping usually), jungle, twisting, burst of agression.

YAA makes it extremely easy to trigger the +damage on jungle, and I can actually get kills vs most one monk teams just by training the monk with constant cripple and spamming my chain over and over.

[holymasamune]

Anet really needs to do something to revive the hero battles. Otherwise, people rather play RA than hero battles since you can get more faction and have chance at glad pts.

[Legendary Shiz]

I agree, they need to implement some type of reward system. A NEW reward system. If they drag down fame any further, or rip apart glad points I'll cry. I think if there were some type of reward system a lot, LOT more people would be interested in playing.

[Lord Mendes]

hmm a "commander title" that can give you certain advantages ingame would be pretty sweet. You get one point for each win, and when you reach a certain level you start capping shrines faster and your capping speed corresponds to your level in this title. But you also lose 10% of the points in your title every week keeping it kinda balanced in a way.
Also a ladder with the top 25 people with the highest commander ranks would be nice, and being on this ladder would give you a prestigious /commander emote which is a giant picture of me (well cuz its my idea...).
Anet would never implement such a thing because it goes against their entire "casual PvP no grind" policy, even though the majority of PvPers are not that casual.
Oh well...

[furbat]

I agree, they need to implement some type of reward system. A NEW reward system. If they drag down fame any further, or rip apart glad points I'll cry. I think if there were some type of reward system a lot, LOT more people would be interested in playing.

I personally hope they do something besides just a title. I really don't see the point of a title. A variable profession hero would be nice though :D

[Thomas.knbk]

hmm a "commander title" that can give you certain advantages ingame would be pretty sweet. You get one point for each win, and when you reach a certain level you start capping shrines faster and your capping speed corresponds to your level in this title. But you also lose 10% of the points in your title every week keeping it kinda balanced in a way.
Also a ladder with the top 25 people with the highest commander ranks would be nice, and being on this ladder would give you a prestigious /commander emote which is a giant picture of me (well cuz its my idea...).
Anet would never implement such a thing because it goes against their entire "casual PvP no grind" policy, even though the majority of PvPers are not that casual.
Oh well...
Great idea. Absolutely great. The second emote should be mendes on a horse, the third one mendes on a throne, after that we'll see

[LightningHell]

Great idea. Absolutely great. The second emote should be mendes on a horse, the third one mendes on a throne, after that we'll see

Fourth: Mendes with Dwayna in a bed.

Back to the topic, I think the rewards should be more cosmetic than real. Such as giving more choices to hero armor.

[Riotgear]

Back to the topic, I think the rewards should be more cosmetic than real. Such as giving more choices to hero armor.
I like this idea.

[LightningHell]

Mind you, I don't HvH. :P

[Lord Mendes]

Great idea. Absolutely great. The second emote should be mendes on a horse, the third one mendes on a throne, after that we'll see
hell yeah!
This would motivate many people to grind that prestigious and exclusive emote.

[Soldat]

hmm a "commander title" that can give you certain advantages ingame would be pretty sweet. You get one point for each win
Just wanted to congratulate. You called it...;)

[twicky_kid]

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10079674

This build is too much upfront dmg for any number of monks to handle. I played a roller this weekend with 1 rit, 1 bonder, and 2 monks.

He turtled in his base the entire game. I still rolled him through all the def and the 50% dmg reduction from the base.

[Derelict Daily]

I've been playing hero battles since NF release, and I'm thoroughly enjoying the format, despite the obvious problems discussed in this thread. I guess the attention to detail required to set up, test and tweak my own build really appeals to me.

One thing I've been doing is leaving my heroes' skill bars displayed the entire match and recording it with fraps. I can then go back and watch their skill usage (especially my monk heroes). I quickly learned that elites like ZB and blight just don't work because the monk heroes spam them unnecessarily and run into energy problems.

The build I'm currently using is loads of fun and has been pretty successful against most teams I've faced, including the holding builds.

- D/W Grenth with wild blow, mystic regen, vital boon, etc. I play this dervish myself.

- D/P Ebon Dust Aura, with Go For The Eyes

- N/Mo Tainter with rotting, vile miasma, etc. I initially ran a N/E tainted/warder, but I found that having this necro give my monk some healing support was more effective. With all the enchants floating around, dwayna's on the necro is a pretty effective heal. The necro hero is also a very good tainter (as good as some human players). I've also run a copy of Extinguish on this guy, but the necro would use it at the first sign of any condition in the party... so I have to disable it unless I'm fighting an SF team.

- Mo/Me Divert Hexes prot. Divert Hexes seems to be an elite the monk heroes will use properly.

Against holding builds, I usually ignore the shrine capper and get to the center as quick as possible. My grenth dervish . . . with degen support from tainted . . . is a monk killing machine, and I'm usually able to penetrate the defense at the center shrine pretty quickly.

The one build I really had problems with was 2 thumpers and a Spoil Victor necro. Even though my monk had Divert Hexes, it seems that SV was just too much for the hero AI. My poor dervish hero died against this build frequently and quickly. :)

Although the current format... with the /roll 100 commander pt farmers .. is a little broken, I'm looking forward to seeing what Anet does in the future. Until then, I'll keep testing and enjoying the good matches with the real players out there.