Mesmers in PvE - I'm stuck

[nSin]

Yes... this is likely another complain topic that everyone hasn't read a milion of times already. Lets start with this the topic I wanted to talk about is mesmers using their primary skills, I'm sure that you have Mesmers that can spam damage spells just as good as an elementalist and that they do extremely well in PvE, I'm sorry, I'm not interested in that. I want to be a Mesmer not an Elementalist in a pretty outfit.

That said, my mesmer is about to have his 1 year aniversary. He was the 4th character I have made. I've always enjoyed playing him in PvP and random arenas and I do good with him in those areas. It's the PvE setting where I'm having problems. Not to the point that I keep dying and making life impossible for my team. I actually do feel like I contribute to my team, however, since I have played all characters and all classes, when I compare the mesmers to a few other (core) classes, I do believe them to be outclassed when it comes to PvE.

My biggest issue right now lies in the Primary Attribute, fast casting. If I look at all other classes (except warriors), their primary attribute helps them with energy management, either because of the skills in this attribute, or because of the the inherent effect. A mesmer is different with this, they have their energy management in an attribute that is available to everyone: inspiration magic.

Now this brings several problems with it already, even though it could be fine in theory, but other classes will benefit from "double energy management" when they pick the Mesmer secondary, which was the reason that many of the inspiration skills got nerfed (like offering of blood). However, I really do think that in the process of this, the mesmer as a class got gimped (for PvE) because their primary form of energy management got a lot less useful. I'm saying for PvE here mostly because the ability to spam a lot of spells on a constant basis is important here, you want to complete everything as fast as possible.

If I would want to spend an elite spot, and 12 attribute points in a single attribute points for energy management I still only got mediocre energy management when I compare it to other classes. And even so, the options are limited, the only sure energy management is Mantra of Recovery and energy drain that - in my opinion - are still not as great as the energy management of other classes

edrain = 18 energy/25 = 072, little more then 2 pips
MoR = 25 energy/20 = 1.25, which is almost 4 pips

Granted, I need to use an elite slot for this, and it isn't inherented like with the Monk/Assasin/Dervish/Necro and Paragon classes. The other two classes have it different, the Ritualist doesn't have many expensive skills and a lot of the skills gives energy back when certain conditions are met, the need for energy management with ritualists is therefor not as high. And elementalists don't only have the attunements, but much better energy management skills and skills that have energy management inhereted and are useful at the same time.

Now the mesmer class has a few of these aswell, Inspired Hex and Inspired Enchantment give a 3/5 energy when used, both however with a 20 second cooldown in which they are useless. Then there is channeling which forces you to basically be in melee range, which would likely work, however, I fear that you'll be a huge strain on the monks energy. Suprisingly Spirit of Failure might give the best energy management, though it is really dependand on several factors, and it has a long cast time, unless you build around the skill I don't find it all that useful. This list sort of goes on and on and the skills are either too conditional, don't do anything else but energy management - and even aren't that awesome at that or don't give a good netto energy gain/over time. Which pretty much forces me to put several of them on my skillbar - as if I didn't need 8 more spots as a mesmer to start with.

On a sidenote, while I'm typing this I'm considering Ether Signet+MoR+Mantra of Inscriptions, yeah.. that's 3 skills, but if I'm atleast able to spam the other 4 then I'll be satisfied.

Now, that is out of the way - I find the primary attribute rather useless especially for PvE, if a monster uses an interrupt skill on you, they are going to interrupt you with or without your permission, so you don't have to do it for that. The interrupts start with a 1/4th second cast time to start with and if you have "average" gamer reflexes this means you will react in about 0.2 seconds thus every spell that has a cast time of longer then half a second you will be able to interrupt. This is the case with, and without fast casting. Now I know a lot of people have been claiming to interrupt 1/4th of a second cast spells... but when I look at what is humanly possible, a faster reaction time then 0.1 second on a consistent basis just does not seem possible, the actions that need to be made from the eyes to the brain followed by the command given by the brain to the hands and in addition the refresh rate of your monitor and your eyes... basically 1/4th of a second spells should not be interrupted, and unless the mesmer class is only for those that are inhuman I don't quite understand the usefulness of it if you use the mesmer to mesmerize. Now if the skills were semi useful in this attribute I could live with it, but they aren't. Or they are useful but suffer of the lack of energy management - sigh I'm in a viceous cycle here.

Domination and Illusion are both nice attributes that are very useful, the skill in there however either have a rediculous cooldown, are a rediculous energy cost which makes it more suites for a one-time-use-spike then constant damage dealing. On the illusion line in specific, it's focused on degen, which really isn't that hot in PvE, and can be better then by a ranger with apply poison, if really needed. Domination mostly suffers from the two problems I said earlier, a skillbar with "backfire - empathy - cover hex - power spike - shatter enchantment - spiritual pain - energy surge" would be awesome - but the cooldowns and energy costs are way too high, even in that specific skillbar I do think a curse necro for instance can do similar damage while keeping up his or her energy.

Now with that all said... I posted this in the build forum because I might just be missing a couple of huge builds that actually don't suffer from all these problems I summed up. In addition, I believe that the people that can help me, if at all possible would be in this forum. So any suggestions for skills and builds are welcome, I'll gladly try them out.

nSin

[Pick Me]

Hopefully, I understand what you are asking for.

You are complaining about the primary attribute of the Mesmer, the energy management being only a single attribute for the mesmer, compared to other professions, and doing damage without long recharges or waiting for health degeneration.

Was that the basics of it?

Fast Casting, do you need it in PvE? No. Is it useful in PvE? Yes, but definitely not as useful as it is in PvP.

Why is it useful? Casting interupts faster, casting energy gain spells faster, casting Rebirth, Resurrect, or any long casting spells faster than others. Do you not see a benefit of this?

Energy management is laughable when you compare Mesmers to others. Divine Favor? No comparison. Soul Reaping, good if something dies. Expertise, good for non-spell casting, otherwise useless. Spawinging - only benefits health of spirits and undead; only the elite skill gives you energy management. Energy Storage is not management, it just entices you to spend more energy (to compensate for the high costs of many spells). Yes Elementalists have nice elites in Energy Storage, but you have good elites too. Assassins need critical hits to gain a bit of energy. Paragons and Dervishes have very good energy maintanence, but requires people to listen to them or have enchantments removed from them respectively.

Why do you think people say that Mo/Me is good because Mesmer's ability to give the monk side energy management. Why do you see Mesmers never cry for BiP or BR? Because they are the best at energy management (my opinion).

Mesmers benefit from runes, others don't. So you can be more self reliant without needing another profession, unlike others who use x/Me and put points into inspiration magic.

Mantra of Recovery (e) is the only way to cut down on recharge time, but then again you do have archane echo.

I don't know much about NF skills, so I won't say much about them.

Quite possibly a nice combo is:

Archane Mimicry + Signet of Illusion (e) + elite spell taken from ally. While I don't think you can add archane echo (you could try), but utilizing from another profession (SS, MS, BL, etc.) you could become a very awesome mesmer. While it is true you'd be using a skill from a different profession, you are really still using Mesmer only skills.:D

Domination Magic + Inspiration Magic + Fast Casting should take care of most of your concerns. Yes, NPCs will interupt you at will, but you can do the same to them.

Hope this helps you a bit.

[A Leprechaun]

aaah to much writing!!

i used to get on fine (i thought) with my mesmer in PvE (my first) but now that i come back to him he is uslesss. well i cant seem to find a use for him.... although he looks great ^^

~A Leprechaun~

[upier]

well you could try the other going the other way sometime. not going for the huge damage that you lack the energy for - but rather be a pain in the ass.
take stuff that is superb in pvp - yet not as much in pve. drop those backfires, empathies, surges/burns and pains. have fun with wasterls, diversion - heck even arcane languor. the hench will be able to shoot down most of the stuff - no need for you to do the same.
i love the pvp messy skills but hate pvp - so i use them in pve. basicly i try to have fun - even if it makes me useless in the traditional pve way where damage is king.
(oh and btw - my messy somehow doesnt have energy problems anymore - hes is always followed around by masters of whispers who carries BiP in his first slot - some might call it abuse but hey - thats what hes there for - to take my shit! ;))

[nSin]

Hopefully, I understand what you are asking for.

You are complaining about the primary attribute of the Mesmer, the energy management being only a single attribute for the mesmer, compared to other professions, and doing damage without long recharges or waiting for health degeneration.

Complaining.. I wouldn't totally label the entire topic as a complain but there are some complaints in there. Summed up of what I said:

- There are serious flaws in putting the main energy management of mesmers in a non-primary attribute.
- The energy management skills that mesmers have now are balanced for when you have mesmer as a secondary but a bit underpowered if you use mesmer as a primary, this is because with mesmer as a secondary you already have inherent energy management from your primary, but a mesmer lacks that.
- Mesmer spells that are useful in PvE have high recharge and high casting cost.
- The illusion line isn't all that hot, degen is only so-so in PvE.

Fast Casting, do you need it in PvE? No. Is it useful in PvE? Yes, but definitely not as useful as it is in PvP.

Why is it useful? Casting interupts faster, casting energy gain spells faster, casting Rebirth, Resurrect, or any long casting spells faster than others. Do you not see a benefit of this?

A benefit yes... but compared to other primaries it's rather insignificant. If the role of a mesmer is being a Rezmer they should've called the class "caretaker" or something.

Energy management is laughable when you compare Mesmers to others. Divine Favor? No comparison. Soul Reaping, good if something dies. Expertise, good for non-spell casting, otherwise useless. Spawinging - only benefits health of spirits and undead; only the elite skill gives you energy management. Energy Storage is not management, it just entices you to spend more energy (to compensate for the high costs of many spells). Yes Elementalists have nice elites in Energy Storage, but you have good elites too. Assassins need critical hits to gain a bit of energy. Paragons and Dervishes have very good energy maintanence, but requires people to listen to them or have enchantments removed from them respectively.

Why do you think people say that Mo/Me is good because Mesmer's ability to give the monk side energy management. Why do you see Mesmers never cry for BiP or BR? Because they are the best at energy management (my opinion).

Elementalists - Energy Storage has far better energy management skills then mesmers have though. Ether prodigy is +6 Pips of regen compared to the 4 that MoR offers. Energy Boon gives more netto energy over time aswell. Elemental Attunement beats MoR easily and Ether Prism can potentially give you much more energy aswell. In addition to that (as if it wasn't enough) they have the normal attunements.

Paragon, Assasin, Dervish - they have great energy management and maybe not so much in the netto energy gain when compared to mesmers, however, they can keep spamming all their spells indefinatly without running of energy if you build them correctly, I quite simply do not see a mesmer capable of doing so.

Ritualist - have energy management skills, most of the skills don't cost a lot of energy to start with though, or return energy. I'm honestly not too fond of ritualists either right now though.

Mesmers benefit from runes, others don't. So you can be more self reliant without needing another profession, unlike others who use x/Me and put points into inspiration magic.

Mantra of Recovery (e) is the only way to cut down on recharge time, but then again you do have archane echo.

Mantra of Recovery is great on paper, then I tried it out and I had massive energy problems, the same thing all over again. If I don't use an elite for energy management then I don't find mesmers usable in PvE at all.

Thanks for the reply though, I'm not quite convinced yet about how usable they are.

[Hella Good]

FC has issues that's true and there are numerous discussions on this. Just recently over at GW Online I posted a thread in the suggestions forum in which there has been some wonderful ideas on how to "fix" FC and bring back the power to Inspiration. I can only hope that the devs do read these suggestions and take notes.

Moving on... Mesmer in PvE has never been better. NF has given Mesmers 2 extremely powerful skills in PvE- Spiritual Pain and Mistrust. You can use MoR or GoR. I personally find GoR one of the best elites to use on a Mesmer. It's Ele, non-attribute, and better than Echo (can't be stripped, recharges much faster, etc.). I like GoR because of it's ability to unload a lot of damage fast. I currently use GoR, Spiritual Pain, Mistrust, Shatter Hex, Empathy, Power Drain, Drain Enchantment, and Res Sig (the cool Sunspear one o'course). It works wonderfully for me.

And btw ever since NF, I haven't had a problem getting in a group. Soon as I type in "Mesmer LFG Master's" and I get an invite or two. I'm proly gonna get my Protector of Elona soon on my Me. I'm doing better than on my Necro... and if that isn't painting a clear picture, I don't know what will.

[Pick Me]

Well, clearly you have given a great deal of thought into the Mesmer being a viable PvE character.

I'm retract my first post then, about your inital post being a complaint. I was mistaken.

I am still very convinced that a Mesmer is an awesome character to use in PvE. Why?

Dispite what you see as limitations, a mesmer is more than just a ho-hum character that can interupt and do some okay health degen. We are great at going against bosses, wurms, and anything else that reduces hex duration (Worstel's Worry is spamable, and can do good damage in quick successions). Interupts, e-denial, divert harmful skills (both offensive and defensive), etc.

MoR is the best way to get your skills recharged (unless you use Assassin's Promise) :) or some other elite.

Elementalist spells have sever drawbacks regarding energy management.

Ether Prodigy - take 3 points of damage for each point of energy you have at the end of the spell. Causes exhaustion

Energy Boon - i equate this to Offering of Blood, but instead of health loss, its energy exhaustion

Ether Prism is only good if you have level 13 or higher in Energy Storage. Even then you don't get much. Cost is 25, gain 2 for each point into Energy Storage.

You could go with Archane Echo, Good spell, and Glyph of Renewal. Heck you can even equip Gylph of Lesser Energy.

As a non-elite, Ether Lord can be used (offers upto +3 pips), only if you are down to your last 5 energy

There are signets that can be used to get your energy as well, but you were looking for more of an edge that Mesmer primarys have that Non-mesmer primaries cannot take advantage of. Maybe in another update that will change, or maybe you'll have to wait until another GW campaign comes out.

[Hella Good]

To be honest, the only Ele skill I ever run on my Me besides GoR is Deep Freeze. In fact, someone asked me for Meteor Shower the other day and I decided to take it to see how it works. And- what can I tell you- I did much more damage with GoR/SP. I guess FC Air is still alright and maybe Burning based Fire. But that seems to me more like something you'd run in RA, not something you'd roll in PvE.

Btw why on Earth would you run E-surge in PvE???

[Master Fuhon]

Fast Casting line looks dead because the skills in it are barely ever useful. The worst primary attribute used to always be the necromancer (no skills/shutdown in pvp), but it's the skills that stink more than the benefit. I always thought Inspiration had some of the best energy management, getting powerful side effects with your energy. I'd personally rather teleport everywhere by using the assassin secondary than have the "benefit" of being forced to go x/Me.

Domination mostly suffers from the two problems I said earlier, a skillbar with "backfire - empathy - cover hex - power spike - shatter enchantment - spiritual pain - energy surge" would be awesome - but the cooldowns and energy costs are way too high, even in that specific skillbar I do think a curse necro for instance can do similar damage while keeping up his or her energy.

If thats your idea of a perfect skillbar, then obviously what you want is something that functions like an Elementalist. You want something like "Aura of Domination", an attunement that reduces the cost of mesmer domination skills. So take your least favorite skill off that list, and hey, it could have been in inspiration skill in that spot.

Next, swap either power spike (power drain) or shatter enchantment (drain enchantment), and you aren't that far from your dream skillbar. Of course, since a domination attunement doesn't exist, you now have to pick another inspiration skill for energy management. Now you end up with a bar that looks this: 5 domination, 2 inspiration, rez. A pure domination mesmer can expect to wand to get an increased damage output. Possibly even go with the 4/3 split if you want a self heal. All your spells might be 10-15, but you could be a Ritualist/Elementalist and have more than a few 25 energy monsters that you want to pick instead.

But come on now, we'd all pick top skills and fuel our attacks with "Blood is Power" necro's and protection monks if we had the chance. Warriors aren't broken because they can't remain in Frenzy all the time. I wouldn't underestimate the power of the domination line either.

[Epinephrine]

I side with the OP:

Mesmers have some real problems, and they stem from:

- Inspiration being the energy management, and being a secondary line.
This has the result that other classes use it for energy management, and as a result it gets nerfed. As pointed out, many classes get energy management from their primary, which mesmers don't get.

- Halved casting times hurting interrupts
In the first GW, mesmers were great to have when facing bosses, they could do a pretty nice job of shutting them down; if they had a weakness in normal PvE, at least they made handling a boss easier! With Factions and Nightfall bosses doing double damage his is even more impotrtant, but the halved casting times makes it unlikely that any mesmer player who isn't on about 18 coffees could interrupt a standard 1 second spell; a half second is too little time, even given a good connection and reflexes. Sure, 2 second spells are doable.

I too love mesmers; playing one as something OTHER than a damage dealer should be possible. Someone mentions Spiritual Pain above - in my mind that's just an armour ignoring elementalist spell. It's damage. I don't play a mesmer to hurl dmage, it's to control and shape the battle, to provide advantage, reduce opponent effectiveness etc.

Memsers should have more in the way of energy management intrinsically, within their primary attribute. Energy for interrupting a foe would be a start, making control-type players more effective. Energy for hexing perhaps as well; generating energy for hexes on opponents with mesmer hexes on them? There are creative ways to do it - as it is, most classes get their energy management handed to them; monks need even more because of their duties, but their reliance on mesmer energy management has killed it for mesmers.

[the_jos]

It all depends on your build and party.
When I quest in PvE, I use Spirit of Failure combined with Ineptitude most of the time.
I call caster (Jin dazes the poor fellow), switch to melee/ranger, cast SoF, Ineptitude. No more energy problems.
Switch to next target, degen (Images of Remorse), clumsiness (or even Signet of Clumsiness, since there is no energy cost). When called target dies, switch to next caster, repeat.
No need for max points in fast casting (if any). That means more point in Inspiration.

When large groups of casters are expected, Domination with Backfire for the boss, Power Drain or Leech sig for the interruptable casters.
When you really fear the spells, run Migraine and Arcane Conundrum on the boss.
Interrupts should be easy now.

You could look at the various Mantra's if you know what kind of damage to expect.
Also check Drain Delusions combined with Web of Disruption (double interrupt for < 10 energy).
Channeling should also work, there are probably some enemies 'In the Area' when you attack a group. And it has a long enchantment time (given it is not stripped).

As a mesmer, you should not have too many problems generating a decent flow of energy.

[Hella Good]

FC is NOT an e-management attribute. It's purpose is to prevent inters and to speed up the unloading of spells. It has issues but these issues have nothing to do with nrg management. ANet refuses to address the real issue- Insp being abused by non-Me primaries and instead keeps nerfing the skills in the hopes that cosmetic changes solve the issue. They don't. One of the best ideas about FC and Insp I've heard is to allow for abused skills to "dip" into FC and to increase their cast time.

Example: Make Mantra of Recall 3 cast, and make it so this skill gets double the boost from FC. (much like Healing Touch gets double the boost from Divine Favors).

Now, none of this has anything to do with PvE where none of this matters. Use GoLE if you not happy with Insp, for me Power Drain and Drain Ench works fine, esp. under MoR or GoR. I think too many Me are set in the mentality that PvE should be addressed same as PvP- one target at a time. PvE is mobsfest. Bring your AoE, damage, hexes, whathaveyou, and don't focus on one target- murder all. GoR/SP/Mistrust is deadly to say the least. You see a boss? No prob. Just Blackout the damn boss and it's a done deal. No reason to build specifically to kill a boss.

[lightblade]

- If...power drain is used every 25 seconds...that'll be the equivilent of 12 pips of energy regen.

- Hella Good is right on that one. Anet shouldn't be nerfing inspiration skills, but instead increase its casting time to make fast casting more useful. Or maybe we can make fast casting increase cast time by 4% per rank.

[HolyHawk]

Honestely, I played the pve with my mesmer using all mesmer skills, and amoung the other classes, it was the easiest to play through. Shatter hex and backfire alone are amazing in pve. And I think the recharge times are just fine, that way you won't find yourself without energy due to careless spamming, nor making some skills too powerfull. And yes, NF new non elite skills just own.

[FalconDance]

The only major (or minor, really) problem I've had running a mesmer in PvE - and I'm on my third one, now - is that we tend to be far lower on the heal list with the monks than just about anyone else. Granted, a decent mesmer won't be taking all that much damage, but when we do.......

Fast Cast is not intended to be an energy management attribute except in that it definitely gives an edge over the cast time of any skill/spell. Faster cast time = faster recovery, theoretically. (Not really, but it will seem like it.) A mesmer is an interrupter extraordinaire, so it makes sense to have a faster casting ability, doesn't it? Just as a warrior is expected to have greater strength to wield those heavy melee weapons all day, a monk to have divine favor of the gods, a necromancer to have a close tie to souls, etc.

I, for one, would really appreciate it if my ranger could have taken advantage of her mesmer secondary's fast cast ability in Tyria so long ago! BUT she was a ranger and had high Expertise, which balanced out her noted lack of energy (compared to a mesmer) and energy regen abilities with the lessening of energy needed to make her 'preparations'.

Mantra of Recovery allows skills to recharge 50% faster, thus enabling you to cast twice in the same time as you'd normally only once. Personally, it's about the only mesmer elite I have ever used on a consistent basis (although that may change with NF skills once I get my Tyrian over to Elona again).

So perhaps it's too early and I'm just not understanding what the complaint is (and yes, you said from the outset that your post was likely a complaint :p).

A person will be able to find any profession's primary attribute to be superior or inferior to any other's if that's what you're deliberately seeking. However, instead of seeking the perceived difficulties, why not look at the benefits?

[nSin]

Well well, thanks for the replies, many insights.

Lets start with this, for everyone that said that FC is not an energy management attribute - I'm very well aware, I never claimed differently. However, I make the (valid) point that the Mesmer is the only class that does not have energy management linked to its primary and therefore, it got nerfed and nerfed because otherwise secondary mesmers would abuse it. Inpsiration is a line based around energy management, and yet it feels inferior to all other energy management spells from primaries, perhaps not in netto gain when you compare it to the Paragon/Assasin/Ranger/Dervish class, however, these classes are able to spam their spells indefinatly if you build them correctly, a Mesmer is far from capable of doing so, that is... if you want to do damage at all.

I would like to point out aswell that Energy Denial - the reason that some of the inspiration skills got nerfed - is absolutely useless in PvE and therefore hard to balance out. I'm sure this point has been made plenty of times already but I just want to throw it out there. So other then that the energy management is below par when compared to any other class then a Warrior (who doesn't need it) the secondary effect of the energy management is useless in PvE.

Note, my problem is not getting picked, my problem is not completing the game. I could probably complete the game with henchies and an empty skillbar if really needed. However, as a Mesmer, I just don't feel quite upto par when compared to other classes. The only build that I had decent succes with was a Phys Distracion build for FoW, anything else, everything either dies way too quick.

FalconDance brings up a good point, even though he didn't intend it like that, what class would give their primary attribute for Fast Cast? Maybe an elementalist, although there are some really nice skills in the energy storage line now (unlike Fast Cast). I think I prefer energy storage over it. Maybe a ritualist would use it but then again, it doesn't work with spirits, and the spells of a Ritualist don't have a long cast time and the Spawning Power has some really nice skills in there aswell. Honestly, I don't think any of the classes would be better off with fast casting (especially not a ranger, not sure what you were doing with that Falcon :X). This kinda counts for all classes though, I'm just saying, if I had the choice, for PvE I could really care less about fast cast and I would rather have Soul Reaping/Energy Storage/Spawning/Divine Favor for a caster, depending on what I plan to do, ofcourse.

Also Falcon, I oppose the claim that I'm deliberately seeking for flaws in this class. I've had my character for a year now and I've been trying to make him work in PvE to the point that it could match my other characters for a long time. However I just feel as if I have the numbers against me, and honestly, with the reasoning I've been giving there are some serious flaws in the design of the mesmer class which makes them a lot less usable for PvE then they could be.

Note that, I'm well aware that there's a lot of complaining in my post, but I do think that I'm trying to put it in a constructive way and bring up arguments that could contribute to the discussion, simply labeling everything I said as a complaint doesn't do it justice.

EDIT:: I've been giving Mantra of Recovery some thought

- 10 Energy every 20 seconds equals 1.5 pips
- You won't have "more" energy because you'll be using everything for 200% aswell
- So if the energy management didn't work with the original build, MoRecov won't change that.
- You need to invest a lot of points in Fast Casting that are useless for pretty much everything else

However

+ Because everything recharges faster you don't have to use as much spells
+ Which might free up some space for more inspiration energy management spells

But

- What energy management spell actually benefits from faster recharge...? The Revealed and Inspired spells don't. The only spell that really benefits from it is Energy Tap and Drain Enchantment, the first one barely offsets the mana cost of MoR and the other is conditional and really doesn't have that good of an energy gain (1 pip without, 2 pips with MoR)

EDIT2::

+ MoR actually works really good with Spirit of Failure for energy management, still a bit conditional, but better then nothing. Also, SoF costs 10 energy, and gives 3-4 (if you want to run MoR you need 12 in Fast Cast ?) energy, on average the opponent needs to do 12 attacks just to offset the loss in energy, it's still pretty decent though.

[TGgold]

Well, MoR and P.Drain are pretty amazing together.

[Katari]

Assassin's PromiseSpiritual PainUnnatural SignetEnergy BurnMistrustResurection SignetShatter DeluisionsPhantom Pain

10 Deadly Arts
12+1+? Domination
8+1 Fast Casting

Sure, you're forced to give up a self heal, but it lets you spam damage skills in PvE.

E-managment is a non-issue with Sin's Promise, and if you're confident in the damage output of your team, PP and SD can be swaped out for some more utility spells, such as interupts or hex removals. I've given up on builds that focus on interpts ever since heros were introduced.

[HolyHawk]

Little off topic, but Inspiration line has been touched a few times already. Remember the times when you would steal 18+ energy and gain the same amount... You could kill anything just with e-drain, e-tap, spirit shackles and mind wrack, really anything. Recharges were lower as well, then they balanced it and reworked the skills.

[FalconDance]

FalconDance is a she, nSin. ;)

No, I wasn't specifically saying you were seeking flaws. That was meant as more of a general admonishment since sooooo many threads are engendered that whine and carry on about all the 'wrong' with X-profession rather than stop and try to find the 'right' and work with it.

When I mentioned my ranger wishing for FC (waaaay back and when), it was more of a wondering how much FC would've cut a 2 second cast skill. (Please, nobody do the math!) What if a trapper could use FC; think of the implications for (not) interrupting the traps in progress! A little ridiculous (and FC wouldn't phase trapping skills, just an example), perhaps. Instead, however, rangers have Expertise which lowers the energy cost of their skills since they're given the poorest energy next to the warrior. As you said, why would an ele need FC since they have double the energy reserves a mesmer can dream of at any given time anyhow. A monk really wouldn't benefit that much, either. A necromancer, on the other hand, might a bit....those 2 and 3 second casts seem to last forever in battle!

I dunno. The only one of the core professions I have very little fun with is the warrior - rangers and mesmers top the list of my favorites. I don't run any sort of cookie cutter builds although I do look at them and see why they work as opposed to how/why mine works for me. I haven't had any difficulty with mesmers (or any other class, really) and feeling 'up to par'. Perhaps it's just the way I approach things. <<shrugs>>

[XvArchonvX]

I actually do feel like I contribute to my team, however, since I have played all characters and all classes, when I compare the mesmers to a few other (core) classes, I do believe them to be outclassed when it comes to PvE.

I think you hit the nail on the head here. I've seen plenty of people posting their PvE mesmer builds here and arguing about how much success they've had with them, but as someone that has played a significant time with almost all other professions (I'm still a dervish/paragon newb :) ) I can say that much of what these builds do is done better by many other classes. Spiritual pain is nice, but a Searing Flames/Glowing Gaze build can outdamage any SP/Mistrust build easily, even with Assasin's Promise.

Don't get me wrong, a mesmer can really make a difference in a battle against a strong boss and is a REALLY strong member in some missions, but in general, they really don't contribute as much as other classes most of the time.

Just as the OP, I'm not saying that mesmers suck and I'm not whining about them, but I do think it is a fair move to give mesmers some sort of change to make the class a bit more PvE friendly.

[Hella Good]

If this topic had been brought up before NF was released, then most certainly I would've agreed that Me are lacking in PvE. But NF did change a lot. It used to be that Backfire, Empathy, Cry, and Shatter Hex were the 4 staple PvE skills. Factions didn't add anything to this. But NF added 2 new PvE staples- Spiritual Pain and Mistrust. These skills are so incredibly powerful that I have dropped Backfire and Cry off my build, and replaced them with these new players. The result is a new kind of Mesmer that doesn't necessarily specialize in caster hate or physicals hate, and definitely doesn't build to simply shut down bosses (that as I already said can be achieved by using just one skill). This new PvE Mesmer is a much like a nuker but better, because the damage is armor ignoring, cheaper, and can easily be supported by disabling utility skills. And if you guys don't see how dramatically things have changed for the Me profession with this new and previously unavailable ability to Mesmer spike/nuke, I don't know what to say to convince you otherwise.

A Searing Flames Ele can do nothing else but cause burning and some semi-decent damage. Semi-decent because all Ele damage becomes vastly inferior once you start facing enemies with armor of 80+, which- mind you- happens fairly early in the game. Apart from spamming SF, a SF Ele can't do jack. A Mesmer spiker can do much more than just dish out tons of armor ignoring damage. A Mesmer spiker can toss in skills like Diversion, Empathy, Power Drain, Shatter Hex, etc., etc., etc., all synergizing very well. You thing a SF Ele can do that? Lets see: GoLE, SF, GG, Liquid Flame, Fire Attune, Aura of Restoration, Res... aww we have one spare slot... yay???

Mesmers have never been stronger in PvE than NOW.

[XvArchonvX]

A Searing Flames Ele can do nothing else but cause burning and some semi-decent damage. Semi-decent because all Ele damage becomes vastly inferior once you start facing enemies with armor of 80+, which- mind you- happens fairly early in the game. Apart from spamming SF, a SF Ele can't do jack. A Mesmer spiker can do much more than just dish out tons of armor ignoring damage. A Mesmer spiker can toss in skills like Diversion, Empathy, Power Drain, Shatter Hex, etc., etc., etc., all synergizing very well. You thing a SF Ele can do that? Lets see: GoLE, SF, GG, Liquid Flame, Fire Attune, Aura of Restoration, Res... aww we have one spare slot... yay???
I'm sorry, but a SF ele still outdamages a mesmer easily. Spiritual Pain does good armor ignoring damage, but has a 30 second recharge. If you use GoR, then it is every 15 seconds. If you rely on Assasin's Promise, then there is the potential to recharge it faster, but will still not be every 2 seconds like SF. Even if the 119 damage is cut in half from armor, it still easily allows an ele to outdamage a mesmer since the ele can spam this constantly with Glowing Gaze at a rate faster than the 2 second recharge using Serpent's Quickness. Take into consideration that SF causes burning (14 armor ignoring damage per second) for up to 6 seconds and you have an additional 84 armor ignoring damage.

Diversion is nice, but useless against anything other than bosses in PvE. Empathy deals decent damage now, but is single target and can really be put on only one target at a time. Power Drain does no damage and is a conditional energy management skill that can be good to fuel a mesmer or completely useless depending on the enemies you face. Shatter Hex is even more conditional in that it requires you to face enemies that hex and also requires the ally that is hex to be in a position to where you can maximize damage output. If you don't face any casters, then Power Drain, Shatter Hex and Mistrust are useless.

I love mesmers and would never hesitate to invite one into my group, but they aren't damage dealers on the same level that Eles are under most PvE conditions.

[Shadwu]

Btw why on Earth would you run E-surge in PvE???
For the dmg.

[Carth`]

This is the reason why I deleted my beloved PvE mesmer. I can still create PvP mesmers whenever I want, and I love playing them, but in PvE, they just aren't all that useful. They have the curse of the sin (mine was also deleted), or should I say assassins have the curse of the mesmer? Either way, both of these classes seem designed for PvP play, where they really shine. In PvE, they seem flawed.

[nSin]

This is the reason why I deleted my beloved PvE mesmer. I can still create PvP mesmers whenever I want, and I love playing them, but in PvE, they just aren't all that useful. They have the curse of the sin (mine was also deleted), or should I say assassins have the curse of the mesmer? Either way, both of these classes seem designed for PvP play, where they really shine. In PvE, they seem flawed.

I have been spending ages trying to make my PvE assasin work, trying out every build out there. They do not work in PvE, they just don't . I've been trying every single assasin build posted, and sure, they can do some nice damage, heck they are even capable of AOE damage, but the numbers are laughable, and the things you need to do to achieve the point of just "moderate" damage is crazy compared to both the dervish and wariror class who by far outclass the assasin in PvE - in just about every area.

In that perspective I'd agree with you that the mesmer is a caster version of the assasin, or the assasin the melee version of the mesmer. I still have my PvE versions of both my Mesmer and Assasin, I guess I'm just hoping that they might get fixed.

[the_jos]

@ Carth,

I don't think the mesmer or sin are flawed in PvE.
I'm still considering to delete my sin, but that's because my hench follow me when their target dies. I don't like to focus on two enemies at the same time.
Have not tried the flagging yet.
I use my Sin as caster-hunter (combo: bye enemy monk).
My mesmer is still usefull, but I have to know what kind of enemies and conditions are in the level. That's why my other characters scout the missions and quests and my mesmer just follows them.

And it's about picking your target.
It's no use casting a hex that lasts 15 seconds on an enemy that dies after 3. Called targets and targets that get AoE damage are not the right ones.
Unless it's a boss.

I think both mesmer and sin are more difficult to play right and require more thinking than other classes.
Furtermore, they are less suitable for PuG groups.
I can think of a couple of good combinations with Mesmers and Necro's / Ele's, but most of the time people want what they know.
That's why I can get in a group with my ranger running barrage, but the same skillbar with broad head arrow is often not accepted. Even if that would make the mission much easier.

[Hella Good]

@XvArchonvX

That's why you use GoR as an elite, if it wasn't obvious enough. Sometimes you will face melee only mobs, sometimes you will face ranged ones, sometimes you will face a bunch of casters, but MOST of the time it will be some sort of a mix. GoR can accommodate that. And I don't bother using GoR to reduce SP recharge to 15s, I would clearly use MoR if that was the case. I simply use it to dual spike with SP, dual spike with Mistrust, dual spike with Shatter Hex, or dual Empathy, depending on the type of mob. It works like a charm.

And this isn't a matter of replacing SF Eles with Mesmers. I simply commented on the amount of damage you can dish out that isn't going to be anyhow limited by high armor. I personally am set up as I have pointed out and I use a SF Ele hero, a spiker Ranger Hero, a Death support Necro with skills such as Rottig Flesh and Putrid Explosion.

@Shadwu

E-surge is pathetic in PvE. You need the versatility of elites such as GoR and MoR. The damage Surge does is ignorable for taking up your elite slot. SP and Mistrust can easily outperform Surge.

@nSin

Sins have no AoE capabilities and AoE is all that matters in PvE. Killing the mobs, not single targets. If a Me builds for single target killing, of course, they not gonna see good results! But if a Me builds for dishing out tons of AoE damage, which the profession certainly CAN, things change dramatically.

[knives]

Think about this:
Group going to FoW, where the monsters all have pretty high armor and life.

The team is:
5 Mesmers - GoR + SP + other nice spells
1 Tank (Dervish or Warrior whatever works)
2 Monkies

5x106(max sp damage w/ 16dom) = 530 damage in an instant to a single target, 395 to surronding foes. No time to scatter/run if an ele was used. Damage is all armor ignoring so no -1's should pop up.

Now since the mesmers used glyph of renewal, that damage doubles.

1060 dmg to a single target + 790 to surronding foes. Combine with skills like shatter enchant, shatter hex, and you do even more damage. This could do even more damage to a mob if each mesmer were to cast their SP's on different targets in the same area, spreading out the 1850 pts of damage equally among the mobs. The 30sec recharge isn't that long after a fight with a mob because monk energy needs to recharge as well, and you can use other skills such as mistrust or cry of frustration (for the beast skills) to do damage while waiting for the simple recharge.

I'm sure a group of 5 SF eles can do more than this, but since SF causes burning to non burning foes, and damage to burning foes, the cohesiveness of this to high armored monsters is reduced significantly. Also all the eles can do is damage, and what good is damage when you are dead? The mesmers can help negate some damage taken (via insp hex, shatter hex, mistrust, power spike etc) while dealing it too.

[pingu666]

assassins have some reasonable aoe damage, but ive played all professions apart from dervish in pve now, and the energy management on mesmers is bad now..

on my ele, 2 attunments means i can spam spells all day long, non stop, even air ones with there fast recharge (and a 20/20 wand and 20/20offhand)

ranger has various skills, but 8 expertise, barrage and a zealous bow and your energy will only sloowly eb away

my paragon hardly ever drops below 20energy

necro's primary is godly, and curses arguably better than some of the mesmer stuff, and for pure damage a minion master is hard to beat

as for the attuments being crap, well say lighting orb+attunment, 5/6energy per cast is returned, quickly that makes the mesmer vaguly non conditional stuff look crap. and thats just casting one spell...

[nSin]

@XvArchonvX
@nSin

Sins have no AoE capabilities and AoE is all that matters in PvE. Killing the mobs, not single targets. If a Me builds for single target killing, of course, they not gonna see good results! But if a Me builds for dishing out tons of AoE damage, which the profession certainly CAN, things change dramatically.

Death Blossom -> Moebius Strike -> Death Blossom -> Moebius Strike -> Death Blossom etc..

It's probably the best PvE build I've used for my assassin but, it still doesn't compare to Warrior AOE (tripple chop/cyclone | hundred blades/sun and moon slash), or dervish AOE for that matter.

[Redfeather1975]

XvArchonvX, I think you are confusing people saying that mesmers can do a whole ton of things well with mesmers being the best at anything.
Mesmers are not/and will not be the best at damage...but they have so much in the way of versatility that it's really hard to peg what build a mesmer is going to bring to the table, because they have so many ways to adapt to there secondary profession and adopt a wide variety of roles.
I think I should have named my PVE mesmer 'Wild Card', because that's pretty much what he's turned into over time. :eek:

[pingu666]

wild cards are normaly crap, with the occasional really good one or two..

[Marth Reynolds]

The mesmers can help negate some damage taken (via insp hex, shatter hex, mistrust, power spike etc) while dealing it too.

that is the main idea for the mesmer, it's a built in prottect/dmg class wich therefore shouldn't be compared to plain dmg dealers.

Mesmers do make it easier to survive, but then again the faster you kill the less likely they'll kill you, i'd say it's a matter of taste.

[Redfeather1975]

wild cards are normaly crap, with the occasional really good one or two..
I'm sorry you feel that way. But we're talking about PVE and many find that the mesmer is very good at being that wild card for pure 'fun factor'.
The All Mesmer Team accomplishments help to illustrate that. It's just loads of fun!
If you are talking about the peeps who hang around PVE outposts saying "play your prof the way it's intended, you suck at this, because <prof here> is much better", then those peeps are taking this whole PVE video game thing way too seriously, and the whole fun of playing a game is tainted by even grouping with those players.

[Sable Phoenix]

I'm sorry, but a SF ele still outdamages a mesmer easily. Spiritual Pain does good armor ignoring damage, but has a 30 second recharge. If you use GoR, then it is every 15 seconds. If you rely on Assasin's Promise, then there is the potential to recharge it faster, but will still not be every 2 seconds like SF. Even if the 119 damage is cut in half from armor, it still easily allows an ele to outdamage a mesmer since the ele can spam this constantly with Glowing Gaze at a rate faster than the 2 second recharge using Serpent's Quickness. Take into consideration that SF causes burning (14 armor ignoring damage per second) for up to 6 seconds and you have an additional 84 armor ignoring damage.

Diversion is nice, but useless against anything other than bosses in PvE. Empathy deals decent damage now, but is single target and can really be put on only one target at a time. Power Drain does no damage and is a conditional energy management skill that can be good to fuel a mesmer or completely useless depending on the enemies you face. Shatter Hex is even more conditional in that it requires you to face enemies that hex and also requires the ally that is hex to be in a position to where you can maximize damage output. If you don't face any casters, then Power Drain, Shatter Hex and Mistrust are useless.

I love mesmers and would never hesitate to invite one into my group, but they aren't damage dealers on the same level that Eles are under most PvE conditions.

This isn't necessarily true. If you look at my Illusion/Domination damage build, for example, I can use just five skills to outdamage any elementalist on single target spike damage. Ineptitude, Clumsiness, Phantom Pain+Shatter Delusions, with Spiritual Pain to top it off, will destroy a target up to level 22; and you have three free slots for other things, more damage or utility as you desire.

[pingu666]

if they attack twice..

i was refering to wildcards in motorbike sporting events ;)

[Redfeather1975]

I don't know what you mean!

Grandpa, he's using terms I'm not familiar with. I think he's insulting you and Grandma.
Oh, you are in trouble now. Grandma is strong like hulk. :eek: - RaWr

[XvArchonvX]

@ everyone who replied to my comment:
My comparison was of a mesmer to a SF ele in terms of AoE damage. My point was that an ele easily outdamages a mesmer in AoE damage. A mesmer can do good single target spike damage, but in PvE enemies come in large groups and killing one enemy quickly doesn't mean a whole lot if you are sitting around waiting for energy regen or skill recharges before taking on the next enemy. PvE enemies are also a lot softer than PvP enemies (even the lvl 28 ones) due to their lowered intelligence and crappy skill sets.

My point is this: In PvE, a mesmer rarely does anything that another class can do better. Mesmers are excellent at shutdown, but shutdown is rarely needed in PvE. The utility aspects of mesmers is often either done better by a different support class (i.e. rangers for interuption or a secondary mesmer/monk caster classes with better energy management at hex/enchant removal). Quite frankly fast cast means little in PvE and Soul Reaping/energy storage with ele energy management skills often make an E/Me or N/Me a better choice when it comes to using mesmer skills.

[Hella Good]

I begin to think you have never played GoR/SP or used the new skills extensively in PvE. These arguments are getting further and further from what can actually be seen in practice.

For my part, I've never been happier doing PvE as a Me. And- mind you- my character is well over 1 1/2 old. Versatility is something that is as valuable as being the best damage dealer, the best support caster, or the best w.e. else you can think of.

[XvArchonvX]

I begin to think you have never played GoR/SP or used the new skills extensively in PvE. These arguments are getting further and further from what can actually be seen in practice.
I've ran several variations of the SP type builds and my SF ele still outdoes my mesmer hands down. I still enjoy using my mesmer, but he's just not as useful as my other characters of each class nine times out of ten in PvE.

[HolyHawk]

I have been spending ages trying to make my PvE assasin work, trying out every build out there. They do not work in PvE, they just don't . I've been trying every single assasin build posted, and sure, they can do some nice damage, heck they are even capable of AOE damage, but the numbers are laughable, and the things you need to do to achieve the point of just "moderate" damage is crazy compared to both the dervish and wariror class who by far outclass the assasin in PvE - in just about every area.

In that perspective I'd agree with you that the mesmer is a caster version of the assasin, or the assasin the melee version of the mesmer. I still have my PvE versions of both my Mesmer and Assasin, I guess I'm just hoping that they might get fixed.

I advise you to try out the deadly arts tree, it works wonders for pve. Remember that assassins have 4 pips, and with a staff they can be a caster, which is good for the deadly tree. There are plenty of combinations you can do with secondary as well. Hint, look at the signets, to start with, and figure it out =P

[nSin]

I've used both SP+GoR and SP+MoR, I find the second option to be a lot more viable because it works on your other skills aswell. While GoR and SP together works well, it basically just cuts the cooldown in half for 5 energy (whereas MoR does it for all spells for 5 energy more, but that's not the point now) so a SP every 15 seconds really does not compare to SF, or even a Meteor Shower that is echoed or MoR'd. You can have a skillbar full of things that do AOE damage with Ele's and all of them, while maybe 75% as effective against high armor, still, with a lower cooldown and higher quantity. Granted there are 5 open skillslots for the mesmer, but there's still the problem of energy management.

As for Assasins and Deadly Arts - I've tried some DA builds, but I wasn't impressed at all, it looked more like a gimmick build then anything else, it's mostly single target damage, and for that I would do more damage with my Daggers - and still be outclassed by the warrior and dervish. I can't really argue with "Deathly Arts builds" because there are so many skills in there that it's hard to tell which you are referring to. But from my experience, it's single target damage that is comparable to Ritualist channeling damage and really isn't all that effective when compared to other classes.

[Katari]

Assassin's Promise
Great fun with SP and Mistrust. ;) It's also e-managment!

[Toutatis]

My mesmer was my first real character, and he's the character I always come back to. And to the people who have said that mesmers are not quite as useful in PvE, I fully disagree. The mesmer isn't PvE unfriendly - it's player unfriendly. At least, it's unfriendly to players who want to understand things quickly. Other classes like elementalists and warriors are blatantly obvious and the basic strategy for using them can be picked up in an hour of playing, if not sooner. *Nothing* about mesmers is obvious, aside from the fact that some of the female armor looks like it was bought from Victoria's Secret.

Mesmers need an entirely different player mindset. When playing in teams, they need to ignore the targets that the rest of the team is picking and use as many of their chaotic hexes on as many different targets as possible in the shortest amount of time, making fast casting an attribute that in my opinion they couldn't possibly function without. While the rest of the team does the "real" damage and/or patches up the wounded, the mesmer is still flicking through targets, mesmerising the enemy into following the team's gameplan, and punishing any enemies who step out of line. So while the mesmer may not look like he's helping with focused fire, in reality he's holding the rest of the enemy group at bay to make life for the rest of the team easier.

And if you take the time to add up the indirect damage done through empathies, backfires, interrupts (the ones that do damage, at least) and degen, you'll find that the mesmer easily keeps pace with and can even surpass the direct damage of the elementalist.


And as a side note: I haven't bought Nightfall yet, and I haven't researched the new mesmer skills available in that campaign yet (I'm only running off Prophecies and Factions so far). I'm hoping that the new Nightfall skills won't disappoint me like a few of the Factions ones did.

[Hella Good]

Don't set your hopes high, the new elites are pathetic to say the very least.

And MoR/SP does nothing but cut down the recharge in half, and that's not the point... the point is to dish out the damage AT ONCE. That is why GoR/SP is better, because in about 2seconds you have dished out about 200 armor ignoring to a single target and 150 to all nearby foes.

Meteor Shower is pathetic compared. No, it's not 25% reduction, high armor reduces Ele damage by a lot more. Everyone who plays Ele should know that. The only good thing about MS and the reason why MS has SP beat is the constant KD. That's really ALL. Damage wise vs a high-armor target GoR SP beats GoR MS on more than one dimension. And- again- you fight high-armor targets about 60% of the game.

I know this is for PvE, but if you take the time to actually watch some GvG, you will notice the now emerging Me spike that has Ele spike beat by being 1) armor ignoring, 2) having a lot more versatility than pure damage dealing. Me have it good spike-wise, because *doh* Me don't even have to build for spiking. You don't need GoLE, you don't need Fire Attunement, you don't need Glowing Gaze, all of which just to support your spike skill. All you need is SP and a way to fast recharge it. The rest of your skill bar can be devoted to whatever nastiness you wanna bring upon the mobs.

[Shadwu]

@Shadwu

E-surge is pathetic in PvE. You need the versatility of elites such as GoR and MoR. The damage Surge does is ignorable for taking up your elite slot. SP and Mistrust can easily outperform Surge.


Arcane Echo Energy Surge, then Auspicious Incantation and again Energy Surge.
Add energy burn and SP. ofc you can put mistrust into build, since its dom magic. There you got some dmg.

[Hella Good]

And you just used up 3 slots and a lot of skill complexity to do double Surge damage?

[Redfeather1975]

Why get hung up on who does more damage. :o
Mesmers aren't really intended to be damage dealers.
They are somtimes damage negaters/dealers. You have so many ways to damage your enemy while denying them the ability to damage anyone else.
It's sadistic. :cool:

[Katari]

Why get hung up on who does more damage. :o
Mesmers aren't really intended to be damage dealers.
They are somtimes damage negaters/dealers. You have so many ways to damage your enemy while denying them the ability to damage anyone else.
It's sadistic. :cool:
Yeah, but that realy dosn't mater as much in PvE. The only thing that really maters in PvE is damage.

[XvArchonvX]

Yeah, but that realy dosn't mater as much in PvE. The only thing that really maters in PvE is damage.
qft. Mesmers may be awesome at shutting down opponents, but in PvE you are generally faced with waves of weak enemies. Even though shutdown can mess things up, it tends not to make a difference when it is single target shutdown in a surrounding of many enemies. Of course as I said before, there are definately exceptions where mesmers can make or break a team, but in general a mesmer just doesn't shine in PvE like they do in PvP.

[Toutatis]

it tends not to make a difference when it is single target shutdown in a surrounding of many enemies

That's precisely why mesmers need to ignore any called targets and flick through enemy targets quickly. The faster you flick, the more enemies you hex and the more indirect damage piles up. Shutting down one or two targets at a time is useful, but so is spreading chaos through large groups. A mesmer can adapt to dismantle anything and everything that the game throws at them, if they get their skill bars right.

[Kook~NBK~]

A person can play a PvE Mesmer extremely well in so many ways it's not even funny. Turning an enemy's strength against him is a Mesmer's strong suit. Wanna make life miserable for a Melee class AI that's coming after you?

Empathy (baddie hurts himself)
+ Spirit of Failure (baddie hurts himself, but doesn't hurt you 25% of the time and gives you energy every time he misses!)
+ Sympathetic Visage (while baddie is hurting himself, and giving you energy, he's losing energy and adrenalin - along with any of his adjacent buddies - making his skill bar useless. Which means less damage that he can deliver to you!)

Now, whatever can be done with the other 5 skill slots? One option for one of those slots is Inspired hex, a wonderfully sadistic toy - that necro put suffering on you? Give him a taste of his own medicine. (Catching SS is a treat, especially if you're a Me/N with some [or a lot] of points in curses)

[nSin]

That's precisely why mesmers need to ignore any called targets and flick through enemy targets quickly. The faster you flick, the more enemies you hex and the more indirect damage piles up. Shutting down one or two targets at a time is useful, but so is spreading chaos through large groups. A mesmer can adapt to dismantle anything and everything that the game throws at them, if they get their skill bars right.

Sure, if they have near unlimited energy aswell. It's hard to argue with "get their skill bars right" because there is no way to know what "right" is and what exactly you are referring too. I assume this is a skillbar that both solves cooldown issues and energy management issues that the Mesmer class has as I described in my first post? Perhaps you should actualy post a "skill bars right" build so I could test it out and argue on its usefulness.

A person can play a PvE Mesmer extremely well in so many ways it's not even funny. Turning an enemy's strength against him is a Mesmer's strong suit. Wanna make life miserable for a Melee class AI that's coming after you?

Empathy (baddie hurts himself)
+ Spirit of Failure (baddie hurts himself, but doesn't hurt you 25% of the time and gives you energy every time he misses!)
+ Sympathetic Visage (while baddie is hurting himself, and giving you energy, he's losing energy and adrenalin - along with any of his adjacent buddies - making his skill bar useless. Which means less damage that he can deliver to you!)

Now, whatever can be done with the other 5 skill slots? One option for one of those slots is Inspired hex, a wonderfully sadistic toy - that necro put suffering on you? Give him a taste of his own medicine. (Catching SS is a treat, especially if you're a Me/N with some [or a lot] of points in curses)

I hate to burst your bubble but a necro primary will do more damage and protection with just Spiteful Spirit and Sympathic Visage, in addition to that SS is AOE compared to single target Empathy, it's also useful on casters and necros have WAY better energy management then Mesmers do.

I don't think anyone would argue that the skills in the mesmer have its uses on their own. There are some awesome nifty skills that I would love to have on my team. But if people still think this topic is about that they need to reread the first post. It's the obvious flaws in the mesmer design that doesn't make them capable of using these skills as much or as effective as I would want them to, and because of that they aren't being as effective when compared to other classes.

[Darcy]

OK, I don't PvP so I have no experience or opinion on mesmer use for team battles. But I've been playing a PvE mesmer for 9 months and most of this discussion has left me at a loss.

I've been under the impression that a mesmer's purpose was harrassment and punishment. A mesmer is designed to be a versatile profession, that with a slight change in skills can take on any foe. When was the profession ever meant to be a major damage dealer in PvE? We soften up enemies with our damage/degen spells, so that when the damage-dealers get to them, it takes less time to wipe them out. We interrupt/prevent/remove spells/hexes/skills that heal foes or damage our group.

Almost everyone in this thread is comparing mesmers to eles for damage dealing. I also haven't played an ele, but when grouped with one, have not been impressed. Great damage, if anyone was left to damage. Most PvE battles don't seem to last long enough for them to be overly effective. But that is not the point anyway. The point is an ele is designed to be a damage-dealer, with huge amounts of energy to fuel the damage spells. Their supposed lack of energy management seems to be caused by players overloading the skillbar with high cost spells.

You keep talking about secondaries. I seldom use my secondary skills in general PvE. I'm sure that more experienced mesmers know more about secondaries and when to use them than I do. But, except for IW, or one-off occasions, I find all I need in my primary skills.

Start looking at the damage prevention to your group and the weakening of foes your mesmer provides. Find a way to add that into your equations. But overall, if you want to play a damage-dealer character, then pick another profession. Don't take a class designed for one thing and try to make it something else.

[Hella Good]

I was making a point that now Me have high AoE damage potential. This helps a ton in PvE, which is mobfest. Yes, a Me is not a damage dealer in the way an Ele is, but having the AoE spike skills does help a lot. And I was also making the point that not only can a Me dish out high AoE damage with the new skills, a Me can also build to counter casters, physicals, whathaveyou, all of this on one skillbar and w/o any unreasonable stretching of att points. The agrument about Ele damage came because I made a note that a Me can easily be as effective (if not more than a SF Ele). The point was just that- Me can dish out a lot of AoE damage AND at the same time provide utility to the group, an SF Ele can only dish out damage. And- as always- people got caught up on the damage comparison.

Me lacked the damage output that most other professions have in PvE. Things simply don't last long enough to be using utility skills on them, for the most part. And that gave Me a disadvantage, much like Sins, lack of powerful AoEs. Now things are changing with the AoE damage that fits perfectly well in a regular Domination build.

[Darcy]

I'm back to apologize.

There I am always telling people how versatile a mesmer can be; how she can play any role required to fill out a group in PvE. Yet when you are arguing that same thing, that your mesmer can do as much direct damage as an ele and thus replace one in the group, I jump on you for changing the mesmer's basic role.

Keep it coming; I'll take notes.

[Toutatis]

Perhaps you should actualy post a "skill bars right" build so I could test it out and argue on its usefulness.

Depends on what you want the particular build to do, and who else is in your party. Punishment? Shutdown? Interrupt? Degen? Anti-tank? Anti-caster? Hex manipulation? Enchantment manipulation? Energy/adrenaline denial? My experience of the game may be more limited but even I recognise that 8 skill slots is not enough to efficiently fill more than one combat role and provide for sufficient energy management at the same time.

When I say "getting the skill bar right" it means looking at your party, assessing their strengths and weaknesses, then looking at the enemies you plan to face and then assessing their strengths and weaknesses as well. Load up on at least 3 energy management skills that conform to the role you need to fill to be of any benefit to the team, the standard rez skill and self-healing skill, and then decide on what other skills you might need to better fill your role and alter your attribute levels to get your "build of the moment" operating as well as you realistically can.

It wouldn't matter what build I gave as an example. It would be a build customised to a unique team setup and combat zone, and testing it under a different set of conditions would likely end up in the build failing miserably.

[pingu666]

yeah getting the build right or wrong is critical, there is no safe build thats also effective whatever like for most other proffesions. eg my MM necro had the same skills and points setup after capping flesh golem till today (and beyond) (apart from cap sigs).

[Hella Good]

I've run the same build since I took my Me to Elona. If you choose a versatile elite like MoR, GoR, or Echo, you can actually pretty much run an all around build that works vs just about anything.

[XvArchonvX]

A person can play a PvE Mesmer extremely well in so many ways it's not even funny. Turning an enemy's strength against him is a Mesmer's strong suit. Wanna make life miserable for a Melee class AI that's coming after you?

Empathy (baddie hurts himself)
+ Spirit of Failure (baddie hurts himself, but doesn't hurt you 25% of the time and gives you energy every time he misses!)
+ Sympathetic Visage (while baddie is hurting himself, and giving you energy, he's losing energy and adrenalin - along with any of his adjacent buddies - making his skill bar useless. Which means less damage that he can deliver to you!)

Now, whatever can be done with the other 5 skill slots? One option for one of those slots is Inspired hex, a wonderfully sadistic toy - that necro put suffering on you? Give him a taste of his own medicine. (Catching SS is a treat, especially if you're a Me/N with some [or a lot] of points in curses)
Empathy < Spiteful Spirit. Even with the Empathy buff, it is outdone by a SS. Also Spirit of Failure is useless in PvE unless you are using it in some farm build. Most enemies die before they even have enough chance to even miss once from it, let alone to miss enough times to merit the long cast time (even with FC) and to provide enough net energy gain to pay for itself. Bosses are the exception, but brining SoFailure just for a boss fight is a waste of a skill slot since it will only provide healthy energy regen when facing the boss and is still inferior to any blinding skills that could be used on the boss.

I was making a point that now Me have high AoE damage potential. This helps a ton in PvE, which is mobfest. Yes, a Me is not a damage dealer in the way an Ele is, but having the AoE spike skills does help a lot. And I was also making the point that not only can a Me dish out high AoE damage with the new skills, a Me can also build to counter casters, physicals, whathaveyou, all of this on one skillbar and w/o any unreasonable stretching of att points. The agrument about Ele damage came because I made a note that a Me can easily be as effective (if not more than a SF Ele). The point was just that- Me can dish out a lot of AoE damage AND at the same time provide utility to the group, an SF Ele can only dish out damage. And- as always- people got caught up on the damage comparison.

Me lacked the damage output that most other professions have in PvE. Things simply don't last long enough to be using utility skills on them, for the most part. And that gave Me a disadvantage, much like Sins, lack of powerful AoEs. Now things are changing with the AoE damage that fits perfectly well in a regular Domination build.
Spiritual Pain and Mistrust don't make a damage dealer. Even with buffs to reduce their recharge, these skills still take way too long to recharge to be worth much in dps.

If you are arguing that the advantage of a mesmer in PvE is that they are damage dealers that can also provide support, then I would argue that a Barrage Ranger and/or an SS Necro could still outdamage a mesmer and bring support to the table. Barrage rangers have interupts with shorter recharge times than mesmers which is more practical in PvE since enemies die quickly. they can also blind enemies via throw dirt and snare with traps if needed. The damage they deal is generally 35-60+ every 2 seconds depending on how well they build. SS Necros bring blood ritual along with the ability to fill up with any secondary skills for support. In PvE, necros arguably have the best energy management in the game which allows many necros to go N/Me and use any mesmer support that is needed. Toss in a bit of death magic and an SS can lay down Well of the Profane which provides excellent AoE shutdown of enemy dervish enemies as well.

With this said, I will still agree that there are certain missions where a mesmer can really shine, though I would argue that it would be via the role of one who disrupts/shutsdown and not as a damage dealer.

[nSin]

Depends on what you want the particular build to do, and who else is in your party. Punishment? Shutdown? Interrupt? Degen? Anti-tank? Anti-caster? Hex manipulation? Enchantment manipulation? Energy/adrenaline denial? My experience of the game may be more limited but even I recognise that 8 skill slots is not enough to efficiently fill more than one combat role and provide for sufficient energy management at the same time.

When I say "getting the skill bar right" it means looking at your party, assessing their strengths and weaknesses, then looking at the enemies you plan to face and then assessing their strengths and weaknesses as well. Load up on at least 3 energy management skills that conform to the role you need to fill to be of any benefit to the team, the standard rez skill and self-healing skill, and then decide on what other skills you might need to better fill your role and alter your attribute levels to get your "build of the moment" operating as well as you realistically can.

It wouldn't matter what build I gave as an example. It would be a build customised to a unique team setup and combat zone, and testing it under a different set of conditions would likely end up in the build failing miserably.

How about an area like the realm of torment, exactly the area where I felt my mesmer wasn't as useful by far when compared to my Necro or my Paragon, who both may be too powerful classes for PvE, I fully acknowledge.

You're facing warriors, rangers, mesmers, monks, necros, dervish and paragons so everything is thrown at you. And in addition, they duplicate so you need to kill them quickly otherwise.

The rangers pack AOE barrage and Debilitating Shot so you don't have energy, in additions they're immune to physical attacks for a long period.
The warriors aren't quite as scary but if you let them be they hit hard and charge adrenaline fast.
The mesmers here have Power Flux which will screw up your energy, or your monks energy, in addition they shatter enchantments to screw up your team.
The elementalists use blurred vision and ice spikes/deep freeze to spike, these hexes make it nearly impossible for your physical attackers to inflict damage.
The dervishes... I honestly don't know much about because I haven't played them yet, but in general, you'll need some form of enchantment removal for them. Or atleast make them miss.
The Paragons are secondary healers with their ballad of restoration, in addition they have high armor so they need to be dealt with with armor ignoring damage.
The monks are pretty terrible luckily.. they do have hexes that can screw up your physical attackers.
The necros are the most scary, if you don't attack the the first they will have a huge army walking around really quickly.

So, what did I do, Shatter Hex because the enemies mass hexes here, backfire because the monks don't have hex removal here, Spirit of failure because otherwise the rangers got out of control. Leech Signet to interrupt some of the nasty spells they had, I chose this over Power Drain because I also had to interrupt trolls unguent and lions strength. Cry of Frustration to interrupt an entire group at the same time since they pack up and cast their spells almost exactly at the same time, also used to interrupt toll unguent/lions strength. Mistrust for some AOE damage and an interrupt. Spiritual Pain because t is too good to pass up on. Backfire because you can just put it on a monk or mesmer and they can't even remove it. MoR/GoR/Echo for shorter cooldowns.

That's 8 spells already so I couldn't even pack a res signet, which is against my principles. Now, maybe this is my flaw - but this build doesn't work. I think I attempted to counter everything throw at me pretty decently but when you look at the skills

Shatter hex - 15 energy
Backfire - 15 energy
Mistrust - 10 Energy
Cry of Frustration - 15 energy
Spritual Pain - 10 Energy
Spirit of Failure - 10 energy - gives back energy but extremely minor
Leech Signet - finally some energy management
And an elite, which will let me cast one of these expensive spells again.

Now IF I were able to cast these spells, I would say that I'm quite capable of matching my allies in usefulness. This is some awesome AOE damage and shutdown and would exactly counter this area, if you disagree here, give suggestions I posted all the information you needed.

HOWEVER because the energy management on mesmers is so bad, it is near impossible to actually use this build efficiently, you can try Mantra of Recall as your elite, however, then you have to deal with enormous cooldowns again, one monster missing 25% that can only be applied every 10 seconds is really nothing to brag about, an interrupt with a 20 second cooldown where-as the spell that you interrupt has a much shorter cooldown sort of defeats the purpose. Spiritual Pain with a 30 second cooldown isn't all that hot... (100/30 - 3 damage a second? suffering even outdamages that).

And honestly, all this single target shutdown is alright against one group, but can you deal with two groups? Several classes are very effective still when you suddenly face two groups, and can do sufficient amount of damage/protection to deal with that, a mesmer on the other hand is really single target oriented, therefore, if the amount of single targets suddenly doubled a mesmer suffers far more then classes that go for AOE or control. A ward against melee or an aegis is more effective then a Spirit of Failure when the amount of targets doubled.

Now I would like everyone that tells me to "get the right build" to either correct my build or give me the "correct" build in this area, something which enables me to deal with everything thrown at me, like I can do with all other classes, that has still decent cooldowns for when things need to be re-applied and you can actually manage your energy with. If this seems like asking much, well, that is what the other classes are capable of.

[XvArchonvX]

@ nSin:
Run that build on a N/Me with some points in Soul Reaping and you have your energy management, lol.

[nSin]

Exactly, on a curse necro with SS/Reckless Haste/Desecrate Enchantments/Defile Enchantments/Leech Signet/Power Drain/Signet of lost souls/Res Sig I'll do FAR better AOE damage against all enemies, can interupt almost just as good, provide better protections against physical attackers and most importantly - I'll still have near unlimited energy while doing all this. Just Signet of Lost Souls already gives a 3 pip energy regen - I'm not even counting Soul Reaping bonuses, in addition, the cooldowns are shorter and the energy costs not as harsh..

Note that if I go Necromancer, I normally just go serpents quickness instead of mesmer secondary because I don't really need to bother, the enemies die really fast either way.

[XvArchonvX]

Frankly I'm surprised that A-net hasn't just increased the cast times of Inspiration energy regen spells to counter their use on other character primaries (there is a reason /Me don't use Energy Tap in PvP). I think A-net had the right idea with Drain Delusions in that it is a energy regen skill that really isn't useful to any class outside of mesmer primary, but the net gain in energy is really sad, especially since it requires you to cast a hex that will be removed early, the cost of which counters the gain from Drain Delusions.

[Hella Good]

XvArchonvX, your constant diminishing of the Me abilities is disturbing. It seems to me, unless ANet makes Eles out of Me, Rangers out of Me, or Necros out of Me, you won't be happy with the results.

Lets reverse this a lil bit. Rangers are one of the most pathetic profession in PvE, unless they run inters, and- mind you- only in the form of a hero that doesn't have reaction time. Necros- the undisputed kings of PvE, can mostly run MM, and maybe Blood support (Orders, Wells, BR/BIP). SS got nerfed pretty well to the point where its DPS has been significantly reduced by scatter. Eles- granted they got it rly good this time around- are still struggling with high armor targets.

And even if we accept the claim that Eles have higher DPS, R are better at interring, N are better at hexing. NONE of these can do all at the same time. However, a Me can not only do all at the same time, a Me can do it all in the same LINE of skills.

And as for your constand dismissing of SP, you fail to understand the concept of SPIKE damage versus DAMAGE OVER TIME.

[XvArchonvX]

XvArchonvX, your constant diminishing of the Me abilities is disturbing. It seems to me, unless ANet makes Eles out of Me, Rangers out of Me, or Necros out of Me, you won't be happy with the results. My point is that the role a mesmer can try to play in PvE is often suited better by other primary professions that are simply more adapted to the PvE setting in most cases. As the OP said, fast casting doesn't mean much when an NPC can interupt regardless of cast time. And I would correct you that I never doubted the mesmer's ability, but only their comparative use in PvE. I agree with the OP that a mesmer can still get by in PvE fine, but they simply don't perform as efficiently as other primary classes by virtue of their primary qualities.


Lets reverse this a lil bit. Rangers are one of the most pathetic profession in PvE, unless they run inters, and- mind you- only in the form of a hero that doesn't have reaction time.
LoL!! Sorry, I really had to laugh at that one. Build a thumper or any type of R/X Rampage as one build and you have some of the strongest single target damage that a profession can deal. Build a barrage ranger and you have some of the strongest, most reliable AoE damage available (not to mention it's being dished out by a much more stout character than a squishy caster). Heros can interupt well, but just because a ranger hero can outperform a human in terms of interupting does not in any way prove that a ranger is ill-adapted to PvE. The same thing could be said about any mesmer interupter, except that the mesmer interupter will suffer longer recharge times and is a much squishier target (100 AL vs ele ftw).


Necros- the undisputed kings of PvE, can mostly run MM, and maybe Blood support (Orders, Wells, BR/BIP). SS got nerfed pretty well to the point where its DPS has been significantly reduced by scatter. Eles- granted they got it rly good this time around- are still struggling with high armor targets.
Even though the effectiveness of SS has been hurt a bit by the AI update, it still outdamages Empathy anyday. The point of an SS compared to a mesmer is that they can do what a mesmer can with a more reliable energy storage.


And even if we accept the claim that Eles have higher DPS, R are better at interring, N are better at hexing. NONE of these can do all at the same time. However, a Me can not only do all at the same time, a Me can do it all in the same LINE of skills. Mesmers may be able to put a skillbar together to hex, remove hexes, interupt, deal damage, etc., it doesn't mean they can do it any better than any other class. I would also disagree in that you can use a necro and be able to hex, interupt, etc all together with mesmer skills, but have a leg up on a mesmer by virtue of soul reaping. In many PvP settings a necro is really quite limited since Soul Reaping is no where near as powerful there as it is in PvE.


And as for your constand dismissing of SP, you fail to understand the concept of SPIKE damage versus DAMAGE OVER TIME.
I am well aware of both, but quite frankly, spike damage is pointless in PvE. In PvP, the ability to deal a quick rush of damage before a monk can respond is an advantage, but in PvE, there are usually incredibly weak monks to no monks to back up enemies. The challenge in PvE is produced by fighting masses of enemies, not of fighting strong enemies. Dealing the most dps is more effective than dealing the most damage in one hit in PvE.

[Toutatis]

nSin, one thing that I notice about that build is that the energy costs are all fairly high. I would look for cheaper alternatives that may not serve exactly the same purpose, but still do the basic things that you need them to do. You also made no mention of your mesmer's secondary profession - does your secondary profession have similar/cheaper skills that do more or less what you need them to, or offer any options for additional energy management? I'll admit that my Me/E rarely uses skills from the E side of things, but those glyphs and water hexes can be useful once in a while.

I also note that you say that it counters everything the area throws at you. In my opinion, this would be attempting to fill more than one combat role and you may be spreading your skills too thin. What I would do is find out what role is needed the most, going on the builds that the rest of your party has and then try to specialise into that single role. Never been to the Realm of Torment myself (I don't have Nightfall yet) so you'll know what resources are at your disposal better than I do.