Duo Paragons: Ultimate Protection

[Zinger314]

As you know, Dervishes were the main focus of the Nightfall PvP Event. As a result, Paragons were underappreciated. However, that's going to change.

Paragons, while they may be notable for their Spears, are much more notable for their protection.

Paragons have a skill tree entirely devoted to Protection and Healing: Motivation. That tree alone can make a group incredibly resilient. However, there's one build that not only halves damage, but also deals massive burning damage.

When these two builds are combined, the group (and all its allies!) become nearly invincible.

Build #1: Motivation Paragon

P/W

Motivation: 16
Command: 9
Spear Mastery: 9
Leadership: 8
Tactics: 0 (This is very important)


#1 - Signet of Synergy -Heals target other ally for 104, and if you are not under an enchantment, heals you for 104. 1s 10r
#2 - Mending Refrain - Target Ally gets +4 HP Regen for 20 seconds. This re-applies when a shout or Chant ends. 1s 8r
#3 - Finale of Restoration - For 37 Seconds, Target ally is healed 79 when a shout or chant ends on them. 5e 1s 10r
#4 - "Watch Yourself!" - All allies in Earshot gain +20 armor for 5 seconds. 4a
#5 - Anthem of Flame - For 10 seconds, allies in earshot's next attack skill causes burning for 2 seconds. 5e 1s 10r
#6 - Ballad of Restoration - For 10 seconds, when an ally in earshot is it with an attack, that ally is healed for 94. 10e 1s 20r
#7 - "Incoming!" (Elite) - For 4 seconds, allies in earshot recieve 32% less damage. - 5e 20r
#8 - Ressurection Signet

Your primary recourse is Mending Refrain (Echo Mending FTW), which can give everyone a +4 Regen. With Anthem of Flame (only Anthem where duration = recharge), you can keep Mending Refrain up indefinately, which alone is very powerful. However, Finale of Restoration, combined with short-duration shouts such as "Incoming!" and "Watch Yourself!" (hence the reason for the 0 Tactics,) you can end up healing a LOT of damage very quickly. Ballad of Restoration and Signet of Synergy are more specific, yet powerful heals.


Build #2: ToF Paragon

P/N

Leadership: 16
Spear Mastery: 11
Command: 9

#1 - Burning Refrain - For 20 seconds, if target ally hits a foe with more Health than that ally, that foe is set on fire for 3 seconds. This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on that ally. 5e 1s 10r
#2 - Blazing Finale - For 37 seconds, whenever a Chant or Shout ends on target ally, all foes adjacent to that ally are set on fire for 3 seconds. 5e 1s 8r
#3 - "They're on Fire!" - For 20 seconds, allies within earshot take 53% less damage from foes suffering from Burning. 5e 20r
#4 - Cautery Signet (Elite) - All party members lose all Conditions. You are set on Fire for 1 second for each Condition removed in this way. 2c 15r
#5 - Plague Sending - Sacrifice 10% maximum Health. Transfer one negative Condition and its remaining duration from yourself to target foe and all adjacent foes. 10e 1s 5r
#6 - Glowing Signet - If target foe is Burning, you gain 16 Energy.
#7 - Anthem of Flame -For 10 seconds, allies in earshot's next attack skill causes burning for 2 seconds. 5e 1s 10r
#8 - Ressurection Signet

(I'll be the first to coin "ToF Paragon" ;) )

The purpose of this build is to keep your Enemies burning, so that "They're on Fire!" can reduce a load of damage (53% at 16 Leadership). As with the previous build, Anthem of Flame can be used to keep Burning Refrain up indefinately. Blazing Finale offers more oppertunities for massive burnage. Cautery Signet + Plague Sending is just an evil combo. Glowing Signet is obvious. Also, the only reason the build takes out some of Spear Mastery for Command is only for the shield.

As you can see, the first build primarily focuses on Motivation, while the other focuses on Leadership. Therefore...they can be combined easily (although you may want to change the Anthem of Flame in the first build to an Aria).

And the results are astonishing.

Blazing Finale and Finale of Restoration will proc very many times, due to all the shouts. While you have constant +4 Regen and 53% Damage Reduction. Your team would take little damage, while you are capable of healing vast amounts.

These builds are definately unfinished. Paragons are owed 9 Elites by the time Nightfalls releases. I hope for a Motivation-based Healing shout and a Burning shout.

Dervishes aren't the ones to fear: It's the Paragons.

[TheMosesPHD]

O.o I'm too lazy to look up all those skills on guildwiki.org

[Zinger314]

Ask and ye shall receive. ;)

[Sol_Vie]

That looks real solid. And I'm glad someone's finally seeing how good the Paragon can be. Over that PvP weekend I favored them considerably more than the Dervish.

[Terra Xin]

I'd rather wait until they've set their skills in stone before taking a good look at this build. Gee, it would look as though it could put Rits out of business...

[Cynn Evennia]

I too found the Paragon more impressive and fearful than the dervish: energy gain as primary attribute, 80 armor + shield, one hand ranged attack similar to short bow, unremovable chants and adrenaline skills, protection and self heals, conditions and interruptions. Wow, just wow! You have a prot monk with warriors armor and the lethal skills of a ranger without even mentioning the secondary!

Even as a seconday the paragon is a promising profession, but maybe it will not be the standard choice for monks, as Mo/Rt was not an amazing build in factions, since the energy management demands mesmer inspiration in general, at least Inspired/revealed hex for me.

Im afraid ANET will nerf the dervish to the level of an assassin and the uber Paragon will remain untouchable. I have nothing against the paragon (at least not if they are on my side :D ), i just think that he is overpowered. Nevertheless id love to see both new profession as powerful as ithey can be with an extra makeup on the old classes to keep up instead of going backwards and nerfing ad nauseam.

[Quid Pro Quo]

The Dervish are definetly not very impressive when compared with the Paragon.

Paragons are just incredible and since they stealthed under all the attention they will probably end up pretty powerful when the game is released while the Dervish enchanment exploits will be nerfed allowing for the true Dervish purpouse to rise, kicking ass in large group with scythe while not doing so great on single powerful enemies. If it weren't for the enchantment builds that were exploited the Dervish would be a perfectly balanced class that would probably be the middle ground of Warriors and Sins. Dervish can heal fairly well putting them above Sins in taking damage but way under Warriors (Warriors are pretty much untouchable which is why they can farm so well) they can attack lots of foes for a decent ammount of damage (no where near a ele nuke but still good) which puts them above Warriors but Sins could still deal out more in bursts.

Paragons on the otherhand have decent armor, very powerful healing and support abilities and can still deal out pretty decent ammount of damage. I expect Paragons to end up being nerfed more after the release of Nightfall. :)

[Renegade26]

Can't wait for Barrage ranger/ Adrenaline Paragon builds. Spamming crippling anthem and Barrage for mass cripple? Sounds like a new ViM tactic to me.

[Zinger314]

Can't wait for Barrage ranger/ Adrenaline Paragon builds. Spamming crippling anthem and Barrage for mass cripple? Sounds like a new ViM tactic to me.That doesn't work. Crippling Anthem would only affect 1 Arrow of Barrage.

[Renegade26]

omg, that really sucks then. Oh well, I can use it lots, twice per barrage if I get 4 targets average.

[Yanman.be]

IMO: In degen builds: "It's just a flesh wound" + Plaguesending for easy aoe deep wound.

[Zinger314]

IMO: In degen builsd: "It's just a flesh wound" + Plaguesending for easy aoe deep wound.C Signet is better since the burning causes a very long Damage reduction from ToF.

Flesh Wound may be better in PvP, I agree, but the purpose of the build is burn, burn, burn.

[Spura]

Build #2: ToF Paragon

P/N

Leadership: 16
Spear Mastery: 13

#1 - Burning Refrain - For 20 seconds, if target ally hits a foe with more Health than that ally, that foe is set on fire for 3 seconds. This Echo is reapplied every time a Chant or Shout ends on that ally. 5e 1s 10r
#2 - Blazing Finale - For 37 seconds, whenever a Chant or Shout ends on target ally, all foes adjacent to that ally are set on fire for 3 seconds. 5e 1s 8r
#3 - "They're on Fire!" - For 20 seconds, allies within earshot take 53% less damage from foes suffering from Burning. 5e 20r
#4 - Cautery Signet (Elite) - All party members lose all Conditions. You are set on Fire for 1 second for each Condition removed in this way. 2c 15r
#5 - Plague Sending - Sacrifice 10% maximum Health. Transfer one negative Condition and its remaining duration from yourself to target foe and all adjacent foes. 10e 1s 5r
#6 - Blazing Spear - If this attack hits, it deals +27 damage and sets target foe on fire for 3 seconds. 7a
#7 - Anthem of Flame -For 10 seconds, allies in earshot's next attack skill causes burning for 2 seconds. 5e 1s 10r
#8 - Ressurection Signet

(I'll be the first to coin "ToF Paragon" ;) )

The purpose of this build is to keep your Enemies burning, so that "They're on Fire!" can reduce a load of damage (53% at 16 Leadership). As with the previous build, Anthem of Flame can be used to keep Burning Refrain up indefinately. Blazing Finale and Blazing Spear offer more oppertunities for massive burnage. Cautery Signet + Plague Sending is just an evil combo.
Yes the They are on fire has been noticed because of its powerful damage reduction abilities. However it is more on paper then on the field.

In pvp the use of extinguish will make the opposing team have an additional heal party.

I can see this working in pve where you can close off enemy into some corridor with tanks. But generally burning refrain won't work after a few hits, anthem of flame works just with attackers and that leaves you with blazing finale. You should also note that this kind of setup requires extreme coordination from the team. People will have to call when non-renewable echos fall off and the whole team will have to stay inside shout radius, which is now back to being less than agro radius. Also non-renewing echos alone will drain most of 2 pips of regen so I think second character could use glowing signet instead of anthem of flame. Use it after blazing spear.


I doubt you can pull this off without really good team. I think ritualists with Ritual Lord and communing spirits and one with recuperation and preservation would do about as well in most situations while also keeping the radius of effects much wider. Something like shadowsong reduces damage from attackers about 90%. And recuperation with +3 regen with preservation and some manual heals would do better than motivation paragon IMO. At least in pve.

[Spura]

I too found the Paragon more impressive and fearful than the dervish: energy gain as primary attribute, 80 armor + shield, one hand ranged attack similar to short bow, unremovable chants and adrenaline skills, protection and self heals, conditions and interruptions. Wow, just wow! You have a prot monk with warriors armor and the lethal skills of a ranger without even mentioning the secondary!
You are severly delusional.

- You only have 8 skill slots. There is no way you can cram that in there and any secondary skills.
- You can't have all attributes maxed. So if you wanna hit like ranger, then you can't heal that well.
- 2 energy regen
- prot monk? Here are prot skills: Angelic Protection(crap Spirit Bond), Angelic Bond(crap Life Barrier), Defensive Anthem(Aegis on 2 en pip character) and "It's just a flesh wound"(crap Restore Conditions)
Everything else is heal. So 4 prot skills spread across 3 attributes makes it a prot monk in your opinion. Protective Spirit is about 10 times more versatile and powerful than anything paragon has, which makes him a shadow of what a prot monk is. He is however a good copy of heal party spammer.

Ranger has this liek powerful traps and he can shoot powerful bow and also has a pet tank that has skills as powerful as a warrior!!!111oneeleventy

[Skuld]

Listing 2 energy regen on a paragon is like saying necromancers have only 4 regen.

[BahamutKaiser]

I think the blazing spear is a bit excessive, with this many burning skills the paragon woln't need a burning spear, it may help them keep burning on one enemy when it momentarily extinguishes from all the other skills, but it cannot be used with the other skills, so it would be very good to switch that to another effect like bleeding or interrupt which can be used to add even more damage on top of the burning instead of overlaping with an effect you are gaining from several skills including skills which add burning to your next "Attack Skill".

I think this simply expounds the importance of some significant shout counters, I think a Ranger spirit which suppresses or reduces the duration of shouts would be a great counter, although something like a mesmer version of desectrate enchantment, but for shouts, would be a good counter as well.

[Zinger314]

Yes the They are on fire has been noticed because of its powerful damage reduction abilities. However it is more on paper then on the field.

In pvp the use of extinguish will make the opposing team have an additional heal party.If the rumored skill balance is true, Extinguish will be nerfed into oblivion.

I can see this working in pve where you can close off enemy into some corridor with tanks. But generally burning refrain won't work after a few hits, anthem of flame works just with attackers and that leaves you with blazing finale. You should also note that this kind of setup requires extreme coordination from the team. People will have to call when non-renewable echos fall off and the whole team will have to stay inside shout radius, which is now back to being less than agro radius. Also non-renewing echos alone will drain most of 2 pips of regen so I think second character could use glowing signet instead of anthem of flame. Use it after blazing spear.In PvE, the entire team should be inside Shout Radius anyways. (especially if ArenaNet buffs earshot range back to Aggro circle)

Matinance of non-renewable echos only requires a skilled player. It can't be stripped, so the Paragon just need to have some skill.

The first build has 8 Leadership, which, I agree, is low. However, "Watch Yourself" will generate a free 4 Energy. The second build has 16 Leadership. When you use Anthem of Flame, a 5E spell, and if it hits atleast 8 targets (as said, that's very likely in PvE), you get 8 Energy, which is 3 free Energy, meaning that neither build should have energy problems.


I doubt you can pull this off without really good team. I think ritualists with Ritual Lord and communing spirits and one with recuperation and preservation would do about as well in most situations while also keeping the radius of effects much wider. Something like shadowsong reduces damage from attackers about 90%. And recuperation with +3 regen with preservation and some manual heals would do better than motivation paragon IMO. At least in pve.Ritualists have 60 AL and Spirits can die in 3 hits of any Warrior (Ritual Lords especially are at the mercy of interrupts). Paragons have 80 AL (96 AL with Shield) and Shouts/Chants/Echos can't be stripped. (Unless ArenaNet is cruel and gives Mesmers a skill to do so) Which is more durable?

(And just for the record, Preservation doesn't have the large AoE of other spirits, and Shadowsong blinds, which is usually uncontrollable and curable)

You are severly delusional.

- You only have 8 skill slots. There is no way you can cram that in there and any secondary skills.Cynn Evennia was being facetious. However, Spear Damage, even with a few Spear Mastery skills, is comparable to Ranger bow damage, since Spear Mastery skills tend to have more bonus armor-ignoring damage. Include a few adrenal-based shouts and you become a fiend.

- prot monk? Here are prot skills: Angelic Protection(crap Spirit Bond), Angelic Bond(crap Life Barrier), Defensive Anthem(Aegis on 2 en pip character) and "It's just a flesh wound"(crap Restore Conditions)Angelic Protection and Angelic Bond aren't strippable or even interruptable. I assure you that the first build, with Angelic Bond as the Elite instead of "Incoming!", will be near invincible in RA/TA.

Everything else is heal. So 4 prot skills spread across 3 attributes makes it a prot monk in your opinion. Protective Spirit is about 10 times more versatile and powerful than anything paragon has, which makes him a shadow of what a prot monk is. He is however a good copy of heal party spammer.I'd say the 53% party-wide damage reduction from ToF is better than Prot Spirit any-day. :eek:

I think the blazing spear is a bit excessive, with this many burning skills the paragon woln't need a burning spear, it may help them keep burning on one enemy when it momentarily extinguishes from all the other skills, but it cannot be used with the other skills, so it would be very good to switch that to another effect like bleeding or interrupt which can be used to add even more damage on top of the burning instead of overlaping with an effect you are gaining from several skills including skills which add burning to your next "Attack Skill".I may agree with you on this simply because with the current Attribute set-up for that build, you are unable to use a Shield. I'll likely change it.

[twicky_kid]

If the rumored skill balance is true, Extinguish will be nerfed into oblivion.

Yes I've heard the same. My source also noted heal party getting nerfed.

Pressure builds are going to be the new metagame. Caultry sig would be pretty worthless if extingush is around.

I still like "its just a flesh wound" more than the sig. Only because I can use fevered dreams and DW an entire area every 4 seconds. Its also a shout so it cannot be interrupted like sig. DW is just simply better than on fire. I would prefer the condition degen to come from another source. The normal taint crip shot combo works fine for massive pressure.

I think the dmg reduction from targets on fire is too situational. The only targets that will be on fire for a long time is from sending after caultry. That would be 1-3 targets in most normal battle ground situations.

[Misc Merik]

heal party and extinguish are getting nerfed?

hmm guess searching for some new utility skills is in order or we could try this paragon dealio out sounds like an interesting class to say the least.:cool:

[GloryFox]

posted by Zinger314
P/N
Leadership: 16
Spear Mastery: 13

So you don't expect the "There on Fire" Paragon to wield a shield? Did you forget about the Motivation Attribute? ALSO the ToF term use has been used before just not with your build. Because of the valid Paragon abilities to grant protection I intend to use two Paragons in addition to my own for PvE and PvP teams. Commander Leader and Motovator.

posted by Zinger314
Yes, I realize this is speculative. However, Izzy will likely be too busy nerfing Dervishes to nerf Paragons. Plus, he hasn't touched Ritual Lord.

And why should he? Just because it's used effectively does not mean it should be nerfed to fit your concept of the game. Ever see an Attuned was Songkai Ritualist? I've seen and used some Attuned builds that far exceeded their real in game counterparts. This does not mean the Elite skill is broken, just used well. Plus since Ritual Lord is a Ritualist template most people will use it for PvP not knowing there are better options out there for a Ritualist build such as Attuned was Songkai. (BUT I DIGRESS)

POSTED BY Spura
Yes the They are on fire has been noticed because of its powerful damage reduction abilities. However it is more on paper then on the field.

Very True! In the field, Burning does not last very long and there are usually more pressing matters at hand. Within the 3 second burning does happens a monk will usually spam a Heal spell such as Word of Healing or Heal party instead of Extinguish. I have found that unless a monk sees bleeding or poison on a health bar they usually don't spam condition removals.

[Mr. G]

^ But this is all gunna change, Am I the only one to predict more Burning focused spells and abillities (for other classes) in NF? It seems to be the condition of the chapter like dis and posion were for factions

[Spura]

If the rumored skill balance is true, Extinguish will be nerfed into oblivion.

In PvE, the entire team should be inside Shout Radius anyways. (especially if ArenaNet buffs earshot range back to Aggro circle)

Matinance of non-renewable echos only requires a skilled player. It can't be stripped, so the Paragon just need to have some skill.
And what will you do when enemies split? Cos good teams do that you know. And to count that players will stay in agro circle is sometimes too much. Even in arenas which are quite small I had trouble keeping mending refrain on those 3 allies.

The first build has 8 Leadership, which, I agree, is low. However, "Watch Yourself" will generate a free 4 Energy. The second build has 16 Leadership. When you use Anthem of Flame, a 5E spell, and if it hits atleast 8 targets (as said, that's very likely in PvE), you get 8 Energy, which is 3 free Energy, meaning that neither build should have energy problems.
Hm last time I looked, leadership was 1 energy per 3 ranks. Wiki says different I checked now. Guess we will wait and see.

Ritualists have 60 AL and Spirits can die in 3 hits of any Warrior (Ritual Lords especially are at the mercy of interrupts). Paragons have 80 AL (96 AL with Shield) and Shouts/Chants/Echos can't be stripped. (Unless ArenaNet is cruel and gives Mesmers a skill to do so) Which is more durable?If we are talking PvE then ritualist can easily put spirits far away enough from monsters also monsters will prefer to attack players over spirits. With spirits range they can really be out of monsters reach.

In pvp split will defeat you. Or just pulling your warriors forward and pressing into your backlines will easily put half the team out of your shout range.



Cynn Evennia was being facetious. However, Spear Damage, even with a few Spear Mastery skills, is comparable to Ranger bow damage, since Spear Mastery skills tend to have more bonus armor-ignoring damage. Include a few adrenal-based shouts and you become a fiend.I've never tried to claim spear is not powerful, but to claim it is a fiendish attacker that is prot monk at the same time is crazy. Spears are completely comparable with warrior weaponry, however packing a lot of spear skills prevents you from running many secondary skills and support shouts.



Angelic Protection and Angelic Bond aren't strippable or even interruptable.
I assure you that the first build, with Angelic Bond as the Elite instead of "Incoming!", will be near invincible in RA/TA.How so? Angelic Bond does not reduce the damage taken by the team as a whole unlike Life Barrier. Half the damage stays on ally and half goes on paragon. That means you spent your elite and you still have to heal the same amount of damage, except it is more focused on the paragon. Most of your heals are made for partywide healing(mending refrain, ballad of restoration), packing Angelic bond would make you more likely to die on RA than playing without it. Also 10 en cost makes it a poor skill for a primary paragon with his 2 regen.

Angelic protection suffers from poor 33% coverage. 10 sec duration 30 sec recharge. Spirit bond or Protective spirit have several times longer duration than recharge. Angelic protection is also target other so that means if they focus you, you better have someone else on the team with strong protection capabilities. Same goes for "Brace Yourself". That is why angelic protection is weak. They just have to switch target until it goes off and you have large downtime. Unlike protection capabilities of a prot monk, which are usually on demand and they can be kept up 100% of the time, energy permitting it.

In the end, I'd rather have removable skill with duration 5 times its recharge like prot spirit than to have non-removable with duration 33% of its recharge.


I'd say the 53% party-wide damage reduction from ToF is better than Prot Spirit any-day. :eek:
The point I was making with prot spirit, is that paragon is nowhere near the power of prot monk because prot monk has lots of skills with such versatility. Let's look at how good prot spirit it: if there are high damage attackers like in UW, glint or things like that, there is no skill better than prot spirit. If target is DPed, prot spirit's effect is even magnified. Against those hard hitting bosses in Factions there is no better skill than prot spirit. The amount of damage reduced by prot spirit in one cast which lasts 20+ sec is very high.

A single skill that does so much. Paragon's prot abilities can just hide. And that is just fine, as we can't have paragon be a better protector than monk who was designed for it. But people still like to sell them like they have good protection powers.

If we look at ToF. Yes it does reduce damage 53%, CONDITIONALLY and AGGRO range, not party range. And the condition of having enemy on fire is hard to keep up. Burning refrain is less effective than it looks. Nobody will attack your warriors in pvp so they will be at full HP. A few hits from your warriors on their casters and burning refrain stops working there. Casters kite a lot so I doubt you will be able to keep their casters burning more than 30% of the time. Casters also are not the ones to do pressure through damage, but rather through burning energy, degen and keeping hexes and conditions off warrior(n/mo with draw conditions). I also think you'll keep burning on their warriors 75% of the time without even taking removal into picture. With removal it becomes even less. Burning lasts 3 sec and your burning abilities will probably overlap a lot and have gaps at other times.
And you can't put blazing finale on all 8 members.

I think paragons will have their place, but they will be far from the power some people think. Sometimes you look at stuff and are amazed, like 50% damage reduction to all in shout range if burning and echo that heals 90 each time shout ends. Then on the field you find out the hard way that burning is hard to keep on people and that healing echo has a recharge that prevents you from having it on more than 3 people at once.

I bet you 30 plat no top 20 guild will be able to win with ToK more than 50% of the time against other top 20 guilds.

[Zinger314]

So you don't expect the "There on Fire" Paragon to wield a shield? Did you forget about the Motivation Attribute? ALSO the ToF term use has been used before just not with your build. Because of the valid Paragon abilities to grant protection I intend to use two Paragons in addition to my own for PvE and PvP teams. Commander Leader and Motovator.I'll fix it, gimme a bit, busy ATM.

And why should he? Just because it's used effectively does not mean it should be nerfed to fit your concept of the game. Ever see an Attuned was Songkai Ritualist? I've seen and used some Attuned builds that far exceeded their real in game counterparts. This does not mean the Elite skill is broken, just used well. Plus since Ritual Lord is a Ritualist template most people will use it for PvP not knowing there are better options out there for a Ritualist build such as Attuned was Songkai. (BUT I DIGRESS)Ritual Lords are overly powerful with NPC support (i.e. GvG, Fort Aspenwood).

I have run AwS builds. They are NOT more effective at protection than Ritual Lords.

Very True! In the field, Burning does not last very long and there are usually more pressing matters at hand. Within the 3 second burning does happens a monk will usually spam a Heal spell such as Word of Healing or Heal party instead of Extinguish. I have found that unless a monk sees bleeding or poison on a health bar they usually don't spam condition removals.The burning isn't made to be primarily offense, it's primarily to trigger ToF.

^ But this is all gunna change, Am I the only one to predict more Burning focused spells and abillities (for other classes) in NF? It seems to be the condition of the chapter like dis and posion were for factionsIf my list of the rumored skill balance is true (my list doesn't have Heal Party on it), then Mind Burn and Mark of Rodgort will receive some nice burn-friendly changes.

Also, Paragons are still missing 10 Elites. We'll probably get a more effective Motivation Shout and more ways to burn.

[Spura]

Yes I've heard the same. My source also noted heal party getting nerfed.

Pressure builds are going to be the new metagame. Caultry sig would be pretty worthless if extingush is around.

I still like "its just a flesh wound" more than the sig. Only because I can use fevered dreams and DW an entire area every 4 seconds. Its also a shout so it cannot be interrupted like sig. DW is just simply better than on fire. I would prefer the condition degen to come from another source. The normal taint crip shot combo works fine for massive pressure.

I think the dmg reduction from targets on fire is too situational. The only targets that will be on fire for a long time is from sending after caultry. That would be 1-3 targets in most normal battle ground situations.
Ok I don't quite get what the good stuff on "It's just a flesh wound" is.

Restore conditions.

5 en 0.75 cast 2 recharge

Remove all Conditions from target other ally. For each condition removed, that ally is healed for 10...58..74 Health.

"It is just a flesh wound"

5 en 0 cast 4 recharge

You suffer from a Deep Wound for 10 seconds, and target other ally loses all Conditions.

So you prefer 0 cast to 0.75 cast so much, that you'd be prepared to throw away shorter recharge and a massive heal per each condition??

And I'd rather get 10 sec bleeding to DW, DW reduces healing and also makes next damage you take a 100 HP spike. If you intend to use it with Fevered dreams I'd rather use an assassin or warrior to inflict deep wound on hexed target than use "It's just a flesh wound" and plague touch.

[twicky_kid]

RC is not used in GvG. If extingush suvives the nerf then you wouldn't need a mass condition removal. 4 second recharge allows you to use it 3 times before sig would recharge.

DW is much scarier than burning.

[Nevin]

Tof seems to be a very interesting build

[GloryFox]

posted by Zinger314
I have run AwS builds. They are NOT more effective at protection than Ritual Lords.

Yes you are absolutely correct. I was speaking in terms of Channeling, Restoration, and cross class builds such as Attuned Illusionist builds not communing builds.

Communing spirits are powerful indeed and is the streignth of the Ritualist class. However I don't believe the Ritualist is overpowered because of the Ritual Lord Elite. Plus if you were to NERF Ritual Lord you don't have to touch the skill at all just NERF Boon of Creation. (BUT THIS IS NOT A THREAD ON NERFING RITUAL LORD)

It will be interesting to see how the Pragon Echo's will stack with the Ritualist communing spirits however.

[Spura]

And since we are discussing nerfs. I think the first skill to be nerfed out of currently known ones is gonna be Aria of Swiftness. Easily the most powerful non-elite around. Paragon skills are either weaker than what other classes have but more aoeish or they are very strong but have conditions. Some have hard conditions like ToF and some have easy ones like Aria of Swiftness. 33% speed boost exceeds most warrior and ranger speed boosts and also equals all boosts but dash and burning speed. Enchanted condition is easy. Use aegis, dark fury, orders or each member uses single target enchants/has such enchants used on them. Eles use prodigy, monk boon, warriors have smiters place enchants on them. Or a bonder.

33% speed boost with 100% uptime will make casters kite like crazy and enable warriors to frenzy while on speed boost. Also whole team moves much faster around the map and responds to enemy. Compare it to charge which is elite, has only 50% uptime and only 25% boost. This makes Aria of Swiftness easily the one of the most powerful non-elites in the game and it is gonna eat the nerf bat at release or after it.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Paragons can be more than just defensive supporters though. Consider some of the following ability combos:

"Brace Yourself!" (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/%22Brace_Yourself%21%22) + Desperation/Drunken Blow = a random condition + 100 or so armor ignoring damage, and you're still not knocked down.

Energizing Chorus (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Energizing_Chorus) will turn Adrenaline into Energy, from not only it's ability but from your Leadership ability as well. A Leadership of 10 would let you get 5 Energy if there are 5 allies near you, and your next Shout/Chant will be 5 less Energy. Combine this with Anthem of Fury (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Anthem_of_Fury) (which is now free, but still gets you Leadership Energy), and you have a nice Energy AND Adrenaline engine going. Hell, Energizing Chorus by itself will be the definitive Energy Management for Paragons. No recharge time, Adrenaline cost, gets you Leadership Energy, AND reduces your next Shout/Chant as well?

Other way you could do Energy Management would be Lyric of Zeal (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Lyric_of_Zeal) with Glowing Signet (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Glowing_Signet) and some way to have an enemy burning (not hard).

Mighty Throw (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Mighty_Throw) is the ideal charge up skill with Anthem of Fury due to its low cost. Stunning Strike (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Stunning_Strike) + Blazing Spear (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Blazing_Spear) is a simple, yet effective skill combination.

Also, remember that while Spears do 1 less minimum and maximum damage than Bows, they attack half a second faster than the fastest bows, and at the same range.

[My Sweet Revenga]

On the defensive side this looks pretty solid. What about offensive capabilities though? Without solid damage dealing wouldn't this just result in one big long stalemate?

The only exception I can think of off hand (I'm sure there are other combos) would be this 2 paragon build with a bunch of assassins. I saw a team consisting of 3 assasins, 2 monks, and something else I can't remember, but they were probably using vent or ts to communicate, and they just death charged 1 player at a time systematically wiping out the opposing team with huge spike combo damage. I can just imagine what will happen if you throw 2 hootin paragons in the mix......

[BahamutKaiser]

If this duo were accompanied by a Burning elementist than they may be able to keep burning on the enemy long enough to keep the enemies damage reduced. With MoR and Rod Invocation you can put significant burning down, but unless your fighting PvE, the enemy is probably going to pick up on your tactic and avoid the burning techniques or refrian their attack momentarily to use between burning.

I think this is a good damage and protective build, but it will still need dedicated healers. If it is good enough Paragon could very well replace the second monk in a party, with one paragon, one monk and one rit, there may be a balance of low, medium and high end support skills in a party, that would be a great improvement IMO. I am also interested in seeing how well Paragon secondaries will work with Assassin, Warrior and Ranger.

[Spura]

Paragons can be more than just defensive supporters though. Consider some of the following ability combos:

"Brace Yourself!" (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/%22Brace_Yourself%21%22) + Desperation/Drunken Blow = a random condition + 100 or so armor ignoring damage, and you're still not knocked down.

Energizing Chorus (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Energizing_Chorus) will turn Adrenaline into Energy, from not only it's ability but from your Leadership ability as well. A Leadership of 10 would let you get 5 Energy if there are 5 allies near you, and your next Shout/Chant will be 5 less Energy. First combo: It is target other ally skill. Sucks, I know. Means that paragon has to bring balanced stance because he can't protect himself from knockdown.

Second skill: I don;t like energizing chorus. I tried it and I didn't quite like it. I would rather take another adrenaline chant and reap leadership energy off it.

Combos I used in preview was critical defenses + "Go for the eyes". Since I already had high command I also took "Never surrender". Shouts are nice for assassin cos you don't stop attacking to cast them.



As for ToF: Best way to inflict constant burning on massive scale is to use burning speed. When it ends it does up to 9 sec of adjacent burning. So stick it on a dervish. Then cast burning speed then signet of piety. It removes the enchantment giving you back 8 energy, so you only spent 2. It also heals (mysticism + signet of piety). And it inflicts aoe burning for 6 sec or so. And burning speed and signet have no recharge. 2 skills make an aoe burner with healing and energy engine rolled into one.

[lord catos]

Paragon are very good, and have a good build.
Only I think not many players no how to use such build.
Ore no how to understand to power of the skills.(have see it in faction)

[sassoonssamson]

nice work there
u got me interested in the paragon now

[Mrscoombes]

Extinguish ftw.

[Ole Man Bourbon]

Paragon indeed has a ton of potential. Looks like a super strong class.

[Zinger314]

Forgot to mention: +5e Spears are the best, since direct spear damage isn't the focus of these builds.

Fortunally, the pre-order spear is +5e.

[unholy guardian]

[QUOTE=Spura]First combo: It is target other ally skill. Sucks, I know. Means that paragon has to bring balanced stance because he can't protect himself from knockdown.

Second skill: I don;t like energizing chorus. I tried it and I didn't quite like it. I would rather take another adrenaline chant and reap leadership energy off it.
/QUOTE]


you don;t get the concept of brace yourself


why not just include this? It IS awesome energy managment. Not only DO you reap benefits from leadership from a skill with 4 adrenlin cost, but the next chant gets deduced by like up to 7 or whatever, that's like 12 total energy to be utilized, although not all raw energy, combine with another skill like defensive anthem and that 15 energy cost goes to like 3. Everyone seems to not relize how exhactly good it is.

[Soldat]

eh, for some reason i too appreciated the paragon more than the dervish (maybe it was just the looks, nah) I felt it had a lot of potential during the PvP weekend. Builds here look nice. At 1st i didnt get em cuz its too late, but now i do; I'll hafta try em.:)

[Spura]

Well you are basically weighing the benefit of 7 energy against benefit of whatever adren shout is replacing it. So 7 energy vs 20 AL(watch yourself) or 60% crit chance on next attack(go for the eyes). Of course 7 energy bonus is likely only good for paragons, while 20 AL and 60% crit can be used by pretty much everyone.

[Spura]

And what the hell is with "Help me"?? Here is a list of ally targeted spells that would benefit from it(spells with cast of 2 sec): Remove Hex, Healing Seed, monk's maintained enchants

Practically everything targeted used by monks casts in 1 sec or less.

[Guardian of the Light]

What interests me about Dual Paragons is the fact that there is no enchantments (NR + Trang anyone?)

[Align]

No love for Aria of Power and it's virtually constant +2 energy regen? For you and the warriors. And the rangers.

[Zinger314]

No love for Aria of Power and it's virtually constant +2 energy regen? For you and the warriors. And the rangers.25 Energy is a tad hard to work with.

Anyways, I made a small update.

[Zinger314]

I just want to point out that since the Ritual Lord has been nerfed into the ground, these Paragon builds will become relevant in the metagame.

[Align]

Just use it first. Then the speeded E-regen will keep you topped up.

[Zinger314]

One last bump (this thread will probably be moved into the inevitable Paragon forums). Since I lack a decent guild (any help?) and time, I can't test these builds in a strict PvP enviroment. Therefore, I'll need more help to test out this build and show what Paragons are really made of!

Post in this thread about any successes you have with this build, in PvE or PvP.

As a few notes, The first build (Motivation) is effective in PvE and 4v4, while the second build (ToF) is effective in AB, FA, and HA. I recommend people try both.

Also, you may want to change out the Elites. I'm personally uncomfortable with "Incoming." Hopefully we get a decent Motivation Elite.

Paragons will own. Believe it.

[Golden_Mean]

I made a very similar build during the last nightfall preview event.

http://www.gwkb.org/cBuild.php?mode=Show&ID=5482
(you can run your mouse over the weird gray skill boxes, since they don't have pics of the new skills yet I guess, to tell what skills they are and the description.)

Not too many on that site I posted it on gave postive replies though :confused: I enjoyed playing it and you can definitely realize the damage reduction. And, I completely agree that Paragon's will ultimately be very useful in all parties.

[Zinger314]

The builds have been tweaked significantly, I'll post the revamped Motivation build in another topic.

[Rau the legendary]

Do these ones still work? I would like to use it together with my friend. And heroes stay in earshot range so no problems with that. And when are you going to post that revamped build?

[JoeKnowMo]

I'm running a slight variation of this build in PvE with Morgahn and it's been going incredibly well. I'm setup for Motiv mostly and Morgahn is Command mostly.

Me: 15 Motiv, 12 Leader, 9 Spear, Command 4
Anthem of Flame
Blazing Finale
They're on Fire
Go For the Eyes
Aria of Zeal (helps monks energy)
Ballad of Restor
Aria of Restor
Song of Purif {E} (hardly ever useful since my monks carry condition removal)
Sig of Synergy

Morgahn: Command 15, Leader 10, Spear 9, Motiv 9

Find their Weakness
GFTE
Anthem of Envy
Song of Restor {E} (Once I cap this on my parry, I'll use this as my elite and put Incoming or something else on Morgahn)
Spear of Lightning
Vicious Attack/Ballad of Restor
Leader's Comfort/Sig of Synergy
Sig of Return/Rez

2 copies of GFTE helps trigger Blazing Finale often.

[Zinger314]

I'm bumping this because I have heard reports that the build works. It should, as nothing has been significantly nerfed (although the first build may have huge Energy problems...)

Can anyone experiment?

[Zamochit]

Paragons are going to be High priority targets in PvP i think..
Make sure that there is hex removal in your team.

Vocal minority is a perticularly nasty anti paragon skill, and will basically shut you down by perventing you from using shouts chants echos etc. Soothing images can give you issues as well by preventing the use of Watch Yourself (Or Go For The Eyes) leading to both energy management issues and the occassional loss of echos on allies.

Overall Paragon looks like a very versatile class. With the centurion insignia (+10 armour whilst effected by a chant, echo or shout) and their ability to use a sheild Their AL is very desirable as well.

ToF builds will work especially well In teams running multiple searing flames Eles. I expect we will be seeing this soon...

[Chrono Re delle Ere]

Zinger, as u can see around I've created(without reading ur topic) a similar P/W build. I invented it thx to the paragon skill list that I found on the net and, because of it, I used this build from the beginning. I'm at half of the game with my paragon, and I've never had problems with energy. In combat I've always had the energy above the value of 37 (!), on a total of 45 energy points (spear+5 energy, all radiant insigna+ a +2energy rune).

For the ToF build I suggest the add of rodgort sign+a fire dmg spear. Ur enemy will be always set on fire! But the build must be changed to fit this. I'll give a try ;D

[Murry]

J/W is this motivation build still relavent?