Mursaat were good?

[Shinigami God]

This has kinda been buggin me, so I'm asking. Were the mursaat/white mantle really good? I mean at first it seems like they only kill the chosen so they won't be killed by them, but then I find the titans and I think that maybe the mursaat were really good, trying to protect the door of komalie from being opened and having Tyria go down the drain. Your thoughts?:p

[Avarre]

The mursaat were evil, but that doesn't mean they can't be defenders on the Earth. There is no group on Tyria that is 'good', all were involved in immense slaughter, but some are on different sides.

[xiao1985]

evil in what sense? selfish maybe, craving for one's survival and believing in a prophacy, klling chosens so they won't be killed... but evil as in killing things for sport (which, mind you, lots of royals in real life do, and i suppose in tyria does as well), mursaat are much nicer...

ok that being said, i hate their agonising touch too...

[Avarre]

evil in what sense? selfish maybe, craving for one's survival and believing in a prophacy, klling chosens so they won't be killed... but evil as in killing things for sport (which, mind you, lots of royals in real life do, and i suppose in tyria does as well), mursaat are much nicer...

ok that being said, i hate their agonising touch too...

Another primarily self-fulfilled prophecy... if the mursaat and mantle never killed any chosen (they certainly didn't need ALL of them to power their jade structures), no shining blade would be set up, and no investigation would lead to oppose the mantle and later the mursaat. So by killing the chosen out of fear, the Mursaat doomed themselves. That doesn't make them good :(

[Yakumo]

Nah, they're not good... it's only that their actions for self preservation can be preceived as good. Sealing the Door of Komalie is in their own interest rather than that of others. The Titans are a threat to them, and the protection of Tyria is just a fortunate outcome from them protecting themselves.

If you believe that the enemy of your enemy is your friend, then you can say that they are good, but I just see them as being the lesser of two evils.

[Virulance]

You're sort of correct. The Mursaat feared the Titans more than anything else because they believed that once the Titans are released, life would end. They were allied with the White Mantle so both could benefit- the White Mantle recieved powerful allies and skills needed to defend the Krytans, and in exchange, the Mursaat recieved the souls of The Chosen in order to keep the Door of Komalie from being opened. The souls of The Chosen are supposedly 'stronger' than normal ones, and therefore required fewer to keep the doors shut. Since the Liche made you believe you were fighting for the right cause, the Mursaat and White Mantle tried to stop you from allowing the Door to be opened. They would have had no problem with killing you before, but once they learn you are going to cause the Door to open, they really don't like you

I guess this will lead to the question "Is the Seer good or evil?"

[Avarre]

Seer's a vindictive creature that lead you to destroy the mursaat in vengeance for its defeat in the war, and then has you clean up the mess for it. Utter evil, and also one of the coolest NPCs (with a better voice, and some skills, it'd be awesome!)

[Mournblade]

Anything that attacks me unprovoked is an enemy. Beyond that it's up to facts and perceptions to form my opinion. lol

The Mursaat were involved with deceit and trickery to achieve there ends. That swings them towards evil to me.

[Avarre]

The Mursaat were involved with deceit and trickery to achieve there ends. That swings them towards evil to me.

Please elaborate, I don't recall much trickery from the Mursaat themselves. Much of it was dealt by human minds, the White Mantle. The Mursaat aren't fast, they're slow and more methodical, and believe in their own racial strength to roll everything (mursaat pack chasing you in ice caves, they don't bother to rush because they know when they catch you, you're gone).

[Numa Pompilius]

...and then there's Glint, using the player to get hold of the staff... Is Glint the master puppetteer, pulling the strings of player & lich alike through intervention and "prophecies", or just the beneficial oracle she claims to be?

...and the poor deluded Charr. Was it their own idea to attack Ascalon?

[Shinigami God]

actually the charr are like the disciples of the titans... or at least they worship them =X It really comes down to whether or not the mursaat kept the door sealed out of wanting to protect tyria, themselves, or both. What I mean by "evil" is that would they be like allies if the door opened and we didn't eat them all alive before that happening? o.O

[B§x¿44¶»1@$]

Virulance, it was to my knowledge that that is true, but the blood stones were used more as a means of no escape for chosen, because by the flame seekers prophecies, the chosen would open the Door of Komalie and they would die.

You can't tell me they had no knowledge of the Flameseeker Prophecies also, street rats in Frontier Gate etc rant about them coming true, so this isn't some unique to just those who listened to the Vizier.

IMO, Mursaat didn't want to die. And if in the process the world gets to live along side them so be it. Remember, they all but slaughtered the seer's race. Both he and Glint described them as evil at some point or another (or thats just what we get from listening to them talk of the immense slaughter).

[Yanman.be]

They were killing the species of the Seer remember? Bad boys!

[Stockholm]

The Mursaat came from another world and tried to rule the ppl of Tyria, that makes them "evil"

[master koa]

In Guild Wars, everyone hates everyone. Warriors hate monks for not rezzing them fast enough. A lot of people hate mesmers [why?]. We hate Mursaat. Mursaat hate us. We're all enemies.:confused: :mad: :D :ninja:

[ryanryanryan0310]

Everyone must die...Some one will always be stronger that you... unless you get a nice solo built, and then bust him/her a new hole....

[Mournblade]

Please elaborate, I don't recall much trickery from the Mursaat themselves. Much of it was dealt by human minds, the White Mantle. The Mursaat aren't fast, they're slow and more methodical, and believe in their own racial strength to roll everything (mursaat pack chasing you in ice caves, they don't bother to rush because they know when they catch you, you're gone).

Well, yes they did use the White Mantle. They allowed them to worship them as gods and to do their bidding. Doesn't that seem manipulative and sneaky? =)

[Avarre]

IMO, Mursaat didn't want to die. And if in the process the world gets to live along side them so be it. Remember, they all but slaughtered the seer's race. Both he and Glint described them as evil at some point or another (or thats just what we get from listening to them talk of the immense slaughter).

The Seer's race also slaughtered them, just not as well. The Seer want's you to succeed by releasing the titans, then wants you to clean up the mess. They're the real manipulative bastard. As for Glint, prophets like to be right, so she makes sure it comes true :p

Mournblade, I don't think the mursaat expected worship but it was helping them, so Optimus Caliph wasn't about to tell the Mursaat 'omg kill teh noobs'.

[lapsus]

Besides who doesnt want an army of lackeys?

[SnipiousMax]

I do think it's interesting that they came to the aid of Kyrta in helping the founders of the mantle to throw the Char back. Seems to me they would have just let the Char swarm them and Ascalon and let the beasts do their dirty work. Then again, maybe they like having fully charged soul batteries...

[Lordhelmos]

MAJOR SPOILERS******



This is very interesting... I read through the GW manuscripts just to check up on these things....

From the looks of it, it all started with the four gods of course (and many lesser gods that were pwned in ancient battles). The manuscripts said that when the four greater gods rose to power and left to oversee the realm they dropped the bloodstones onto the world. This is where I believe the Titans come into play. Perhaps the Titans were weapons of the gods that were left stored within the titan's source before the divine wars ended with Dwayna, Grenth, Balth, and Melandru pwning everyone. The Titans probably plopped down into the world along with the bloodstones.

After this the world was primordial in the aftermath of the bloodstone fall and the gods pretty much chilled back for now.

About this time the serpents (Dragons) took over the world as mystical creatures and began to sheperd the world. These dragons had some sense of foreseeing time and in their age of glory they created the flameseeker prophecies, pretty much outlining the future of what is to come.

The dragon's foresight proved to be right and the new race they have been expecting appeared in Tyria... mankind. At this point the serpents knew some real bad poop was gonna hit the fan so they said peace out to the world and their duties.

Man brought war and empires to the world and of course the not so fun stuff outline in the dragon's flameseeker prophecies starts happening. A few dragons like Glint and Kunie stayed around to see what was gonna happen out of curiosity.

While this is going on the mursaat and the seers race and embroiled in some huge war with alot of mass slaughter going down (in some other world or plane). The Mursaat WTF pwn the Seers race and the Seer escapes into the world of man. The mursaat kind of chill in their own world for now.

Man erects three massive kingdoms: Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta. The guild wars start and a whole crap load of people start dying. About this time, the beast race of charr discover the titan's source and release the titans. The charr begin worshipping the divine flames of wrath as gods and start spreading destruction because their fiery gods only exist to consume and destroy.

So while all three of these kingdoms are fighting. The charr suddenly roar from the north with flaming titan power and WTF pwn the human races. Ascalon goes down the drain.

While this is going on, Orrians discover some ancient draconian lore and attempt to become more than human by grasping this power and ascending (which is kind of like elevating the power of your spirit, something that dragons know how to do.) Glint believes humans aren't ready for this and her legions of forgotten WTF pwn the humans.

As the charr are wiping out the humans the march into Orr and as a last resort the rulers of Orr resort to an ancient artifact that was leftover from the ages of the gods (as old as the dragons and titans): The sceptor of orr (Which was probably sealed away in the tombs of primordial kings, which functions as a gate between our world and that of the gods.). In using the scepter, which has the power to control souls and the dead, the Orrians screw up and blow themselves away, transforming Orr into a giant wasteland and everyone into undead. Vizer Khilbron is transformed into the undead lich and his greed for domination of the world may be related to the "something that went wrong" with the scepter.

The charr march closer to Kryta and De'Alessio is exiled into the jungle at this point. As a nobody he stumbles into a cross world gate and meets the Mursaat, who look like divine angels to him. Alessio comes back with the aid of the mursaat after pledging is devotion to them and with the Mursaat manipulating events in the shadows, the Mantle Pwn the Charr.

Somehow during this course of events the Mursaat stumble across the bloodstone and discover how to use its powers in order to create seals and armors out of powerful human souls that have a destiny. The only way they could seal the titans away and allow the Krytans to beat the charr is to use human souls in order to charge a soul battery they built and lock the titans behind the door of komalie. Yeah its not pretty but it works... the Mursaat decide not to tell humans about this but instead manipulate the mantle into getting more human souls for them so they can feed their hungry gate against oblivion. Only select people in the mantle heirachy know the truth, such as Hablion and Dorian.

In some place, the mantle scour the ruins of orr and find the scepter. The scepter has some really bad prophecy mojo around it so they seal it in some temple. However, the scepter is linked to the undead and Vizer Khilbron (the old vizer of Orr who is now twisted and manipulative.). By bringing the scepter of orr into kryta they screw up and allow the scheming undead passage into their lands.

Of course some people find out that the chosen are being sacced and form the shining blade to fight the mantle. The shining blade retreat into the forest and begin calling for the aid of the druids in order to fight the mantle. The forest guardians are bored and have nothing really to do so they aid them with little hints but nothing to extreme (Like Dark Oak). The Druids probably just want the mantle out of their forests. Also the mursaat soul magic probably seems evil and unnatural to them.

Now the games starts, and you do all your stuff and get involved. You eventually ascend but in reality after you join the shining blade, the Vizer Mysteriously steps in with his undead powers and begins playing you like a puppet. His plan is to get the scepter and screw you over at the end by causing you to open Komalie so he can use the scepter's powers in order to control the titans and rule the world.

Of course Glint knows all of this and to her its like watching days of our lives, she already knows whats going to happen but sometimes she steps in and gives you some draconian guidance just to spice the show up for herself. After all she was one of the dragons that wrote the flameseeker prophecies in the first place.

All the while the four gods just kind of chill around and watch humans who have ascended fight to their hall or heros and perform a gladiator show. They are too busy moderating Korea, Japan, America, and Europe to worry about armageddon in Tyria. When they care, the pop out and give you a +2 moral boost to cheer you on.

So there you go, simple summary of everything going on with Tyria.

To answer your question, I believe the Mursaat didn't start "evil" because they chose to help Alessio by reviving him in the first place. However when they found out all the fun they could have with human souls, they got a little twisted and did some not so nice things. However it was for the good of the world that they kept the door sealed. Most likely they did out of fear and the flameseeker prophecies come true with each event despite what they tried to do to stop it probably drove them crazy. Thats probably why they went to such extreme measures to seal komalie, even if it meant saccing human souls. I like the mursaat and according to the manual they still have some unseen world where the hailed from in existence somewhere. I would like to see more of the mursaat if that is possible, as a new race or class even.

The mursaat are like humans, just cooler looking and they float (that touch hurts too). Mursaat, like humans are afflicted by corruption and paranoia. They collapsed under the pressure of a forboding end of the world dilemma and started going crazy. It would be unfair to say all mursaat are evil.

I may write some fan fiction on this interesting subject at some time so check lyssas fiction if I start feeling a little productive.

[B§x¿44¶»1@$]

Bravo Helmos. Bravo.

Well, me being who I am of course wonder about the existance of everything, and GW is no exception. I believe it WTF PWN when like this (ugh, now I'm going to start saying that. yay).



So there was Melandru, Grenth, Balthazar, and D-wane. Chillin.

They was like, yo, we need stuff to worship us or what ever reason it is that God's make their things.

So they do. They make the world, life, etc.

Aaaand the God's make the races to follow them. Balthazar+Grenth make the titans of burning death. Melandru makes the Druids to make sure no bad shieat goes down. Lyssa makes the Mursaat who can use the powers of illusion to make miles of purpley jade awesomeness with the wave of their hand. Dwayna makes the seers. Others make other stuff. Dragons are the lesser god's. Not avatars, those are them. Titans live in a world where all they do is kill each other (not to different from real life eh?). Many races go extinct after the age of awesomesauce and the others go into decline. Titans decide to go out and pwn other stuff and they do. Eventually the Mursaat are the ones that beat their faces off with a good ol' back handing and stuff them back into the ring of fire, and eventually the Door of Komaile. In their uncontrolled downfall that follows (the first thing they can't control- considering they could do it to time space etc to create what ever they wanted) they freak out, loose their heads, and start killing each other.

Now, the FlameSeekerProphecies are written, and everyone freaks out. Mursaat have huge spires of jade and stuff miles high. They think they can use the power of other races and stick them in blood stones (usually just used as tombs for mursaat, and this isn't a new idea. the Eldar from Warhammer 40k do this) for power. Seers and other stuff get WTF pwned have what not and the dragons all have their lairs and are just laughing at it-- except when their lair gets sacced.

After this, Seers are in shambles out hiding, and a few others from other races have isolated themselves for the rest of forever. Mursaat use what power they have to stick their kingdom in another dimension and leave Tyria, except with a few portals.

Now, the few dragons left (Rotscale and Glint aaand a few Seers) are doing what they can to keep time from unravelling before the Flame Seeker Prophecies hit home.

Man comes along. WTF Guild Wars. WTF Pwned. WTF Orr gets wrecked and Rotscale gets turned evil, even though he was really their protector- like Glint to the Elonians maybe?

And, so the Guild Wars happen, and then like the fluff says D'Allessio finds the entrance to the Mursaat world, and they realize that the Flame Seeker Prophecies aren't acknowledged, not only their presence in Tyria will be wrecked, but their own dimension will get screwed when the titans come for revenge.

So there they are in a pickle, and decide to get D'Allessio to do his studio magic, show off his awesome, give him some magics to convince the people of his encounters with the gods, form the mantle, and be ready to WTF Pwn the charr when they come.

The charr come. WTF Pwn ascalon.

Tyria, is a little better, and the super secret white mantle jsut come out of the wood work, take over everything while they are under the siege of the charr, and then the mursaat magic ultimately turns back the titans. Leaving everyone else totally back handed when it comes to figuring out what just happened.

So the Mursaat now need to stop as many chosen as possible from becoming ascended and capable of hurting them. The less threat they get from the chosen, ultimately, the less from the titans. One man can only open so many doors on his own. 10 men, 10x as much. You get the idea.

So Orr (during the Charr time) turn to Rotscale, who is using every trick in the book at this point thinking the charr are really the titans (or a sub race, which they are, but not acknowledging the bulk of them are hidden away off in the land of the ring of fire). Rotscale pulls out the scepter of orr, and stuffs all the evil magic in it, like he did to keep himself alive many a generation ago. Vizier, seeing this thinks "holycrap I could be a millionare" takes the staff, aaaand. Boom. Good bye Orr. Evil titan magic escapes in a "jade wind" and all the orrians are zombified.

Vizier, is now the lich.

Flame seeker prophecies unfold. The seer makes you get revenge for him. Glint doesn't give you the full story cause there aint enough time and she just wants to see how well or poorly you get the job done.

Clean up of the titans, perhaps if the chosen were told, would be a bit of a turn off.



But yes. See previous post for what happens from there.



Fan Fic FTW.

[B§x¿44¶»1@$]

double post ftl.

[Lordhelmos]

Bravo Helmos. Bravo.

Well, me being who I am of course wonder about the existance of everything, and GW is no exception. I believe it WTF PWN when like this (ugh, now I'm going to start saying that. yay).



So there was Melandru, Grenth, Balthazar, and D-wane. Chillin.

They was like, yo, we need stuff to worship us or what ever reason it is that God's make their things.

So they do. They make the world, life, etc.

Aaaand the God's make the races to follow them. Balthazar+Grenth make the titans of burning death. Melandru makes the Druids to make sure no bad shieat goes down. Lyssa makes the Mursaat who can use the powers of illusion to make miles of purpley jade awesomeness with the wave of their hand. Dwayna makes the seers. Others make other stuff. Dragons are the lesser god's. Not avatars, those are them. Titans live in a world where all they do is kill each other (not to different from real life eh?). Many races go extinct after the age of awesomesauce and the others go into decline. Titans decide to go out and pwn other stuff and they do. Eventually the Mursaat are the ones that beat their faces off with a good ol' back handing and stuff them back into the ring of fire, and eventually the Door of Komaile. In their uncontrolled downfall that follows (the first thing they can't control- considering they could do it to time space etc to create what ever they wanted) they freak out, loose their heads, and start killing each other.

Now, the FlameSeekerProphecies are written, and everyone freaks out. Mursaat have huge spires of jade and stuff miles high. They think they can use the power of other races and stick them in blood stones (usually just used as tombs for mursaat, and this isn't a new idea. the Eldar from Warhammer 40k do this) for power. Seers and other stuff get WTF pwned have what not and the dragons all have their lairs and are just laughing at it-- except when their lair gets sacced.

After this, Seers are in shambles out hiding, and a few others from other races have isolated themselves for the rest of forever. Mursaat use what power they have to stick their kingdom in another dimension and leave Tyria, except with a few portals.

Now, the few dragons left (Rotscale and Glint aaand a few Seers) are doing what they can to keep time from unravelling before the Flame Seeker Prophecies hit home.

Man comes along. WTF Guild Wars. WTF Pwned. WTF Orr gets wrecked and Rotscale gets turned evil, even though he was really their protector- like Glint to the Elonians maybe?

And, so the Guild Wars happen, and then like the fluff says D'Allessio finds the entrance to the Mursaat world, and they realize that the Flame Seeker Prophecies aren't acknowledged, not only their presence in Tyria will be wrecked, but their own dimension will get screwed when the titans come for revenge.

So there they are in a pickle, and decide to get D'Allessio to do his studio magic, show off his awesome, give him some magics to convince the people of his encounters with the gods, form the mantle, and be ready to WTF Pwn the charr when they come.

The charr come. WTF Pwn ascalon.

Tyria, is a little better, and the super secret white mantle jsut come out of the wood work, take over everything while they are under the siege of the charr, and then the mursaat magic ultimately turns back the titans. Leaving everyone else totally back handed when it comes to figuring out what just happened.

So the Mursaat now need to stop as many chosen as possible from becoming ascended and capable of hurting them. The less threat they get from the chosen, ultimately, the less from the titans. One man can only open so many doors on his own. 10 men, 10x as much. You get the idea.

So Orr (during the Charr time) turn to Rotscale, who is using every trick in the book at this point thinking the charr are really the titans (or a sub race, which they are, but not acknowledging the bulk of them are hidden away off in the land of the ring of fire). Rotscale pulls out the scepter of orr, and stuffs all the evil magic in it, like he did to keep himself alive many a generation ago. Vizier, seeing this thinks "holycrap I could be a millionare" takes the staff, aaaand. Boom. Good bye Orr. Evil titan magic escapes in a "jade wind" and all the orrians are zombified.

Vizier, is now the lich.

Flame seeker prophecies unfold. The seer makes you get revenge for him. Glint doesn't give you the full story cause there aint enough time and she just wants to see how well or poorly you get the job done.

Clean up of the titans, perhaps if the chosen were told, would be a bit of a turn off.



But yes. See previous post for what happens from there.



Fan Fic FTW.

Nice nice, where did you get all this info? Super cool stuff and explains alot more than I could, especially with with rotscale things and scepter.

And back to the question:

I guess you could say the mursaat did some messed up stuff playing around with soul magic, but then again they were pretty much just paranoid about the world ending. But yea they did WTF pwn a crapload of the other races, including the titans at some point.

[lapsus]

Well cmon who in GW doesnt mess with soul magic? But you cant hate the Mursaat for being awesome. Dont hate the player hate the game.

[B§x¿44¶»1@$]

Well cmon who in GW doesnt mess with soul magic? But you cant hate the Mursaat for being awesome. Dont hate the player hate the game.

Or just the NPC's you kill anyway in cinematics



As for the dude before Lapsus's post, it is all just an educated guess. My imagination really.

[DarthLasing]

Everyone has their own mind. The mursaat goal was to stop the flameseeker prophecies from ever completing, because (theory) everyone misread the prophecies that the titans would prevail. But the true fact is that the titans would be stopped by some great group of people. So the prophecies we're misread, thats why there we're mursaat and the white mantle.

In the end of hellsprepice, glint says.
"The flameseeker prophecies are now compelte."
Once you complete destroying the lich.

[DarthLasing]

On what helmos said...
The forgotten are yes controlled by glint. But that did not destroy Orr..You see, those who died on the catyclsm of orr we're I think turned into undead by the lich, since they are undead, there summoner is there master no matter what. The lich, or the orrian kings vizier is the cause of the catyclsm which DESTROYED orr aka WTF pwned orr, not the forgotten. (Catyclsm is when the charr attack orr, but the vizier persuades the king to use forbidden magic which causes the whole orrian peninsula to be destroyed) Thought it still is a mystery how the vizier became the lich.

[Lordhelmos]

On what helmos said...
The forgotten are yes controlled by glint. But that did not destroy Orr..You see, those who died on the catyclsm of orr we're I think turned into undead by the lich, since they are undead, there summoner is there master no matter what. The lich, or the orrian kings vizier is the cause of the catyclsm which DESTROYED orr aka WTF pwned orr, not the forgotten. (Catyclsm is when the charr attack orr, but the vizier persuades the king to use forbidden magic which causes the whole orrian peninsula to be destroyed) Thought it still is a mystery how the vizier became the lich.

Nah I didnt say the forgotten destroyed Orr, just some of the Orrians (perhap even some elonians who may be linked to orr in some way) tried to ascend in crystal desert, thats when the forgotten layed the big daddy smack down on those few trying to be more than human. Glint said no noobs, your not leet enough for that. I agree with the vizer being behind the cataclyms.

When the ghostly hero starts talking about those who tried to ascent is he talking about elonians or orr? I'm pretty sure it was elonians... maybe some link to nightfall? Who ever they were thats who the forgotten pwned.

[DarthLasing]

Hmm, It could have both been the orrians and elonians. Or just one. Since arah the capital of orr/the city of the gods aka where they use to live, caught the attention of many other continents/countrys. So the elonians trying to travel to arah, meet up with orrians, tell them about there "ascension mission", try to ascend, glints says NO HAXORZ PLEASE and sends the forgotten and WTF pwns them.

[Former Ruling]

Something to remember when discussing topics like this is that alot of the happenings in the Chapter 1 storyline were just manipulations by the Lich...Playing the people right into his hands.

"Good" and "Evil" are really relative, so its hard to argue if someone is "good" or "evil". The Lich is assumed evil, but remember to the Charr he is probably a Savior. Its really a personal thing on the Mursaat...Do you agree that the Ends Justify the Means or not? Kill a few people and save your whole species (and the world). In the Real World would you be offended if Scientists killed a few people in experiments, if those experiments lead to a cure for cancer that saved millions? If No, what if I twisted that, What if the scientists were killing them for bad proposes and just HAPPENED to find the cure for cancer by doing so, is it still ok?

Those questions are really what you have to consider in "good" or "evil" in the situation.


Another primarily self-fulfilled prophecy... if the mursaat and mantle never killed any chosen (they certainly didn't need ALL of them to power their jade structures), no shining blade would be set up, and no investigation would lead to oppose the mantle and later the mursaat. So by killing the chosen out of fear, the Mursaat doomed themselves. That doesn't make them good

If they never killed the Chosen...You'd have seen Titans ALOT eariler in the game than the last mission lol (As in at the start...). Them killing people is the only reason the Door stayed closed as long as it did.

Remember, its YOU that comes along and Freaks up the whole process (as per the prophecy). Mursaat didn't do anything to their own demise - It was just written into prophecy.

[B§x¿44¶»1@$]

Well, where was the kingdom of Orr though? Where? Crystal Desert, or Krytan area...

Because the Scepter of Orr, what turned the Vizier evil, is what caused the big boom in Orr if we have any sence of logic.


Oh, here's something to go with the origin of species.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Rift
Story of the gods+the rift.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Lord_Odran
Story of how the rift was found by man

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Exodus_of_the_Gods
HO SNAP, something about the bloodstones mentioned...

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Bloodstone
Nope, not Mursaat built after all. God's used them to control the gift of magic to Tyria... read the next link

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/King_Doric
Yup. King Doric, any other references to this?

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Orr
ORR, one of the cities where the Gods lived. Good bye rotscale idea.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/The_Mists
Don't want this to turn into a discussion of the UW etc, but that seriously does tell us some stuff about how life came about.


God's lived among Tyrian on the Crystal Desert peninsula area... humans suck and then the blood stones are stuck in abadons mouth to make sure they don't get into anyones hands again.

Volcano erupts and sends them out... Hmmm

Dang, I need to make a timeline.

[Avarre]

If they never killed the Chosen...You'd have seen Titans ALOT eariler in the game than the last mission lol (As in at the start...). Them killing people is the only reason the Door stayed closed as long as it did.



I suppose those random chosen they didn't kill would have broken through the Onyx gate then? My theory remains this was a self-fulfilling prophecy, by killing the chosen to prevent the occurance they accelerated it by leading the chosen who were going to break the door to do so, by creating a situation which led them to discover what was going on.

[Numa Pompilius]

...which again leads to the question whether Glint didn't actually *cause* the entire sequence of events through her prophecy.

I don't think ANet has any intention of tying up the various threads in chapter 1 and 2, or to make the story at all complicated or dark (I think they view all the events to be exactly as they appear to be), or even make the stories coherent, but a decent writer certainly COULD tie things together nicely, creating an story arc which was both epic, complex, and a tad darker.

Personally I'd love that.

Also the Charr definitely needs more attention. What's not to love about a brutal, primitive, people in mortal fear of, and therefore worshipping, Mursaat and Titans?

Where is the Charr homeland, anyway? Somewhere to the north or east?

[Tien ak]

I personaly think the mersat are evil think of them as the evil dudes in Half life 2 (SPOILER)






They are basicly a alien race that try to take over planets and earth was next so they used the adminstrator (can't remeber his name) to take over the planet and not have many casuties.

Its near enough the same with the mursat they used humans to kill off the char which had some tie up to the titans as they have burning totems of titans and im guessing they knew a bit about the flameseeker prohpies before and therefor helped the humans kill em off. So when the mursat help push back the char army they are now known as gods and they have a firm grip over Kryta and soon to be the rest of the world. However once they find out about Humans being the chosen they order them to kill them.

If they were good they would of proberly either told them about it and told them about the titans or just left them alone. They simply were trying to take over anouther planet.

Also im not sure about the theroy of Mursat being made by gods same as the Titans...Titans are well known monsters to be able to be able to kill gods, maybe thats why Glint wanted you to go do it in the first place of course she told you all about it when you killed her beacuse now she's in gods realm if Grenth is killed by a Titan who knows what might happen...oh and as you know there are many ways Titans could get into God realms eg HoH UW FoW etc.

[lapsus]

Well Gods and Titans fighting isnt a new idea (greco roman mythology ftw).
I could see Glint using and creating the flameseeker prophs to destroy her peers. I mean other then those upstart humans, the mursaat and the titans are her and the remaining dragons only compitition to ruling the world. Have some intrepid adventurers kill off the competition and then have them get slaughtered by some pretty powerful dragons would do nicely. A short while later every major town is giving you tribute and then you seal the gates to the god's realms. Dragons ftw

[Avarre]

...which again leads to the question whether Glint didn't actually *cause* the entire sequence of events through her prophecy.



Of course she did. Prophecy is meant to be given, else the events won't neccesarily happen. Glint also did everything possible to make sure it all went according to plan.

The Charr home is far in the north, past the shiverpeak mountains.

[Dragannia]

Of course the Musaart are good. They're freaking FLOATING and have gold halos! I mean, your character must be retarded to attack these holy, golden beings all on the suggestion of an shifty floating black dude who wants you to bring him the EVIL Scepter of Orr, and the only way to defeat the Musaart is to go to an EVIL seer who wants you to bring her the EVIL essence of an EVIL creature and infuse into your armour in an EVIL ritual. Common sense fails once again...:(

[Makaelthos Solcry]

Don't be so childish and ignorant,when it comes to the topic of the nature of different races ,there is no race which is 'good' or 'evil' .Every race has an inherent instict to SURVIVE ,and if that means dominance over other species to ensure it ,then so be it .

[Makaelthos Solcry]

Well Gods and Titans fighting isnt a new idea (greco roman mythology ftw).
I could see Glint using and creating the flameseeker prophs to destroy her peers. I mean other then those upstart humans, the mursaat and the titans are her and the remaining dragons only compitition to ruling the world. Have some intrepid adventurers kill off the competition and then have them get slaughtered by some pretty powerful dragons would do nicely. A short while later every major town is giving you tribute and then you seal the gates to the god's realms. Dragons ftw

You mean norse .

[Tien ak]

Don't be so childish and ignorant,when it comes to the topic of the nature of different races ,there is no race which is 'good' or 'evil' .Every race has an inherent instict to SURVIVE ,and if that means dominance over other species to ensure it ,then so be it .

Someones been whatching the Aliens films :D

But I do dissagree with you the Mursatt could of just stayed on their own planet and they would be fine, our characters wouldn't of killed the mursat if they done things a little more peacefull, for example not kill innocent people in cold blood and try to take over our planet.

I see the mursat as not 100% evil as in some sense they did try to save the world and save the gods by not letting the titans free. However they obviously took things a little to far and good ol greed took over.

As for Glint I agree with lapsus that she wanted some revenge on the gods and thus made this all come to plan, as even though we took back the shiverpeaks why go over to the ring of fire? to kill the mursat once and for all? I don't think so, its to realise the titans.

Though glints plan does backfire when you kill her hense why she tells you about the titans that were free after the last mission.

So to sums things up there was no Survival beetween glint and Mursat the only people trying to survive was the humans, Glint was after revenge and the Mursat wanted to add anouther planet to their collection :D

[Dawns Tide]

The real question is.. are we evil?

[Makaelthos Solcry]

aliens movies ? wHatching ?

first of all ,i've never WATCHED one ,second xwtrcgnvjukuvjtyrhtegrsnhmj

[Ristaron]

You mean norse .
No. He means Greco Roman.
In Norse mythology the Gods were opposed by the Giants, not the Titans.

And there's a flaw with your theory, Lordhelmos. In fact... several.
First of all... there are five gods. Dwayna, Balthazar, Melandru, Grenth, and Lyssa.
Secondly... the gods created the serpents to look after Tyria, which they eventually realized the uselessness of with the destructive presence of humans. They fled to the Crystal Desert, and later left, and humans continued to screw themselves up until at last King Doric pleaded for the gods for aid.
The gods, in their final act before leaving Tyria forever, gather up all the magic in a giant stone, smash it, and seal the five pieces with Doric's blood. The stones are dropped in Abaddon's Mouth, and it's believed done.

Then, a few hundred years later, the volcano erupts and the Bloodstones are scattered all over Tyria.
Tyria, not the world.


The Titans, according to guildwiki, are a powerful and destructive race that once roamed Tyria's furthest corners (including Ascalon, where the Charr recieved them as gods and still erect flammable effigies in their image). How they were sealed inside the Door of Komalie probably involves the Scepter of Orr, whos wielder the Titans submit to. After the Scepter was used to seal the Titans away, it was likely hidden in a bygone place in Kryta. This is because Kryta had no real military - only the Lionguard who kept safe the Holy City of King Doric's line. As such, even if anybody were to find the Scepter they would not know what it was.
Unfortunately, not all record of it was lost.
Centuries later, a student of the Flameseeker Prophecies begins searching for a mysterious artifact alluded to in the dragonscript. His efforts are kept silent, and the more he researches the artifacts power and history, the more he realizes how he might use it. The chain of events has begun, and Vizier Khilbron comes to realize he will need to be more than mortal to achieve his goal.
So when the Charr approach, he performs an ancient ritual of devastating consequences - transforming himself into a lich and destroying the entire peninsula that was Orr.

By now we need to think about the Mursaat. It is likely that they lived in the Maguuma as long as time can recall, and didn't branch out from there for fear of the Titans. Thus, they would have eagerly played a hand in sealing the Titans away.
When the volcano erupted, spewing out the Bloodstones, it is possible that the integrity of the magical door of Komalie was weakened. Fearing the return of their hated enemy, the Mursaat endeavoured to find a way to keep shut the gate to hell. The most effective means they contrive is a battery, powered by souls.
Fearing that their plan may be discovered, they decide to kill two birds with one stone. Literally. They sacrafice the Chosen - who can see them - on the bloodstone, which charges the battery and renews the strength of the door of Komalie.
Their plan works perfectly until Khilbron takes the next step of his design, and takes some of the Chosen before the Mantle can get to them, and then shows the group their friends being slaughtered on the Bloodstone. Horrified, they found the Shining Blade, which the band of heroes is eventually drawn into.

See, Khilbron alone was one man, but he knows that with the door of Komalie weakening, the Mursaat would use their influence over the White Mantle to send search parties through Kryta in search of the lost artifact. But when Khilbron has his own influence in a great organization such as the Shining Blade, he can use them to retrieve the artifact and deliver it to him.
All works according to his designs, and the rest is needs no interpretation.



The Mursaat are neither good nor evil (unless you count an apparent lack of conscience as evil). They are simply looking out for their better interests, no matter the cost. Something understandable in any race.


<EDIT:> Rereading my post, it seems as if the entire thing is stating that Lordhelmos' theory is a wrong... actually only the top is correcting the flaws, the rest is my own theory.

[B§x¿44¶»1@$]

Up to the point where you speak of the Mursaat (after reading tons on Wiki) that seems to be the standard though.

Probobly even right about the rest, including the maguuma jungle and that is where D'Allesio found the Mursaat, and considering thats also near where the Scepter of Orr was found.

[lapsus]

Just beacuse they are an enigmatic force that killed hundreds of people, if not thousands, to stay alive doesnt make them evil. No mursaat, no world, that makes the mursaat saints in my book.

[Ristaron]

Just beacuse they are an enigmatic force that killed hundreds of people, if not thousands, to stay alive doesnt make them evil. No mursaat, no world, that makes the mursaat saints in my book.

Despite the loss of their council and the devastating defeat to their plans, the Mantle and the Mursaat may still be killing. ;)

[Lordhelmos]

Hehe forgot about lyssa.. lol not enough coffee in my system. I think there is a definite gray in the allegience of the mursaat to good or evil. Once thing for sure is their cultural standing in terms of humanity. It seems likely they believed they were a higher race than man and treated humans as such. It seems like the mursaat were using humans for conveniece and survival. Be interesting to think about what happened to the mursaat after the game. With spawling cities described in the book that may exist in some ethereal world, it may be unlikely that they are wiped out. Of course, the reason for their fall is simple underestimation of the humans they monopolized with their religious mind control. Post game, the mursaat would be revealed to the world as false gods by the shining blade, and once the truths of their ways and human soul manipulation is make known me thinks the world would become very tough for them.

[Avarre]

Hehe forgot about lyssa.. lol not enough coffee in my system. I think there is a definite gray in the allegience of the mursaat to good or evil. Once thing for sure is their cultural standing in terms of humanity. It seems likely they believed they were a higher race than man and treated humans as such. It seems like the mursaat were using humans for conveniece and survival. Be interesting to think about what happened to the mursaat after the game. With spawling cities described in the book that may exist in some ethereal world, it may be unlikely that they are wiped out. Of course, the reason for their fall is simple underestimation of the humans they monopolized with their religious mind control. Post game, the mursaat would be revealed to the world as false gods by the shining blade, and once the truths of their ways and human soul manipulation is make known me thinks the world would become very tough for them.

Well, they have a point. Of the Sentinent races, Mursaat are the most powerful, no real contest. Yes, you can kill them 1v1 but that's a) AI stupidity and b) the help of the Seer (the second most powerful race, if it could wage a lasting war vs the Mursaat).

The remnants of the Mursaat, if any, will probably hang around, but I doubt they'll flourish much anymore, they've lost their menial support, their soul batteries, and their leader (you killed him in Abbadon's Mouth).

[Ristaron]

A perfect ending to the chapter.
Except they had to add in the quests where you went after the Titans. :D

In any case, the Prophecies storyline was much better thought out and planned than the Factions one (no offense to the team which was working on Factions, we realize you had about 1/10th of the time to create that chapter as the original team did for Prophecies).
I'm looking forward to the Nightfall campaign with the mention of Elonians... I've wondered quite a bit about their original homeland, their culture, their reason for travelling to the Crystal Desert (ascending 'just for the sake of it' doesn't seem logical... though it could explain why the crystal shards were kept in three different camps, as is described in the Elona Reach mission).

But now we're getting off topic... the Mursaat did evil things, and judging by how they seemed to be guided by a desire of self preservation rather than ridding the world of an destructive force I would not put them on the list of 'good guys'.
Just possible allies when armageddon arrives.

[DarthLasing]

Hmm..
The mursaat are again not good or evil. When people do things, they think as being good, like hitler inspiring a whole country to slaughter a whole religon. So too many people, the mursaat can be heros to them, and others guild wars nazis.
Buuutt...If the gods feared the titans, or they we're fighting (greco roman mythology again), they must have created the mursaat to defend all races of tyria and stop the titans from ever again ruling Tyria. the mursaat knew there job, but they had to sacrifice a few type of people to keep the door of komalie close. But some humans, in there natural nature, oppose the idea of killing there own kind to keep something closed that they do not know about. Then again, if glint was first created by the gods, why would she oppose something created by the gods to protect a race? Or she doesn't care anymore :P

[Pick Me]

Here is my belief.

Mursaats are not evil, if they only wanted to keep the door of Komali closed. The White Mantel became corrupt (you can see it in Hablion's eyes, and hear it in his voice). I believe they would not stop until they have taken over the entire world. Yes, that would mean once Tyria was secured (including Fire Island), they would march down to Canthas too. After all, the chosen can appear anywhere, even a Canthan, Luxon, or Kurzick.;)

If the Mursaats wanted more than just to keep the Titans away, then yes, they are evil. But fear of death is not something that makes you evil. I mean, if you heard that someone was going to kill you that bears the mark of the white pimpernel, wouldn't you take action to ensure that you were not killed by such a person? :D

Look at all of the Shakespearian plays that has prophecies and people (kings) killing off or sending people away (exile) so the prophecy does not come to pass.

As to the question, are WE evil? That depends. Rangers could be, using the skill COMFORT ANIMAL to "capture" an animal. Thankfully, the "seaguls" and the white rabbits are immune to that power. The other animals are not that fortunate. That is why they attack the ranger. If it were a skill like Aquaman or Tarzan's ability to communicate to animals, then the Ranger wouldn't be "evil". And how many of you attacked the neutral, non-aggressive stone creatures in Pre-seering? They didn't attack people, yes they may have gotten in your way from time to time, but they didn't start the fight. There are many instances where I would have like to avoid fights at all costs, but the game wouldn't let me. As soon as they enter my "aggro circle", they attack. No amount of communication to the Ahn Fa or bandits will allow you passage. :(

Even the creatures outside of the main city on Shang Hi Island (or whatever that Island is that you start in Factions). When you venture out, who attacks those little creatures that wonder around, Master Togo. He instigates the attacks, so is he evil?

The Seer either continuously appears in many areas in the game (Iron Mines, Fire Island - several city missions) or there are a few of her kind around, but either way, she is vengeful. She admits she wants to see them taken out. It seems that everyone believes in these prophecies, so it is natural that everyone takes part in making them come to pass. I don't think the Seer is evil though. But I have to re-look at why her race and the Mursaat were fighting in the first place.

Glint seems to have many eggs. I wonder if the Kuuveng (or whatever that dragon's name is in Unwaking Waters) and Glint have ever met?

Well, that's my opinion.

[DarthLasing]

Yes I agree with "Pick Me"'s post, what I was trying to say about in my post. Everyone has a different point of view on what they have to do, considering that there doing "good". The mursaat did whatever they could to keep the door of komalie closed, to protect humans, and the other races of tyria.
..............
But I still wonder on why the Mursaat would want to "defend" tyria (the world not contanint) and all it's races, including humans. We're they created by the gods? Sort of off topic...Time to make a thread!

[lapsus]

Well id assume that flying, angelic looking beings were created by the gods

[heist23]

Honestly, the fact that we can't decide whether or not the Mursaat were the bad guys or the good guys here speaks to me of a really badly planned plot.

[Avarre]

Honestly, the fact that we can't decide whether or not the Mursaat were the bad guys or the good guys here speaks to me of a really badly planned plot.

Or you could consider that makes the plot superb in that characters aren't portrayed as such one-dimensional creations that it becomes evident.

[OMFGimCUTE]

MAJOR SPOILERS******



This is very interesting... I read through the GW manuscripts just to check up on these things....

From the looks of it, it all started with the four gods of course (and many lesser gods that were pwned in ancient battles). The manuscripts said that when the four greater gods rose to power and left to oversee the realm they dropped the bloodstones onto the world. This is where I believe the Titans come into play. Perhaps the Titans were weapons of the gods that were left stored within the titan's source before the divine wars ended with Dwayna, Grenth, Balth, and Melandru pwning everyone. The Titans probably plopped down into the world along with the bloodstones.

After this the world was primordial in the aftermath of the bloodstone fall and the gods pretty much chilled back for now.

About this time the serpents (Dragons) took over the world as mystical creatures and began to sheperd the world. These dragons had some sense of foreseeing time and in their age of glory they created the flameseeker prophecies, pretty much outlining the future of what is to come.

The dragon's foresight proved to be right and the new race they have been expecting appeared in Tyria... mankind. At this point the serpents knew some real bad poop was gonna hit the fan so they said peace out to the world and their duties.

Man brought war and empires to the world and of course the not so fun stuff outline in the dragon's flameseeker prophecies starts happening. A few dragons like Glint and Kunie stayed around to see what was gonna happen out of curiosity.

While this is going on the mursaat and the seers race and embroiled in some huge war with alot of mass slaughter going down (in some other world or plane). The Mursaat WTF pwn the Seers race and the Seer escapes into the world of man. The mursaat kind of chill in their own world for now.

Man erects three massive kingdoms: Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta. The guild wars start and a whole crap load of people start dying. About this time, the beast race of charr discover the titan's source and release the titans. The charr begin worshipping the divine flames of wrath as gods and start spreading destruction because their fiery gods only exist to consume and destroy.

So while all three of these kingdoms are fighting. The charr suddenly roar from the north with flaming titan power and WTF pwn the human races. Ascalon goes down the drain.

While this is going on, Orrians discover some ancient draconian lore and attempt to become more than human by grasping this power and ascending (which is kind of like elevating the power of your spirit, something that dragons know how to do.) Glint believes humans aren't ready for this and her legions of forgotten WTF pwn the humans.

As the charr are wiping out the humans the march into Orr and as a last resort the rulers of Orr resort to an ancient artifact that was leftover from the ages of the gods (as old as the dragons and titans): The sceptor of orr (Which was probably sealed away in the tombs of primordial kings, which functions as a gate between our world and that of the gods.). In using the scepter, which has the power to control souls and the dead, the Orrians screw up and blow themselves away, transforming Orr into a giant wasteland and everyone into undead. Vizer Khilbron is transformed into the undead lich and his greed for domination of the world may be related to the "something that went wrong" with the scepter.

The charr march closer to Kryta and De'Alessio is exiled into the jungle at this point. As a nobody he stumbles into a cross world gate and meets the Mursaat, who look like divine angels to him. Alessio comes back with the aid of the mursaat after pledging is devotion to them and with the Mursaat manipulating events in the shadows, the Mantle Pwn the Charr.

Somehow during this course of events the Mursaat stumble across the bloodstone and discover how to use its powers in order to create seals and armors out of powerful human souls that have a destiny. The only way they could seal the titans away and allow the Krytans to beat the charr is to use human souls in order to charge a soul battery they built and lock the titans behind the door of komalie. Yeah its not pretty but it works... the Mursaat decide not to tell humans about this but instead manipulate the mantle into getting more human souls for them so they can feed their hungry gate against oblivion. Only select people in the mantle heirachy know the truth, such as Hablion and Dorian.

In some place, the mantle scour the ruins of orr and find the scepter. The scepter has some really bad prophecy mojo around it so they seal it in some temple. However, the scepter is linked to the undead and Vizer Khilbron (the old vizer of Orr who is now twisted and manipulative.). By bringing the scepter of orr into kryta they screw up and allow the scheming undead passage into their lands.

Of course some people find out that the chosen are being sacced and form the shining blade to fight the mantle. The shining blade retreat into the forest and begin calling for the aid of the druids in order to fight the mantle. The forest guardians are bored and have nothing really to do so they aid them with little hints but nothing to extreme (Like Dark Oak). The Druids probably just want the mantle out of their forests. Also the mursaat soul magic probably seems evil and unnatural to them.

Now the games starts, and you do all your stuff and get involved. You eventually ascend but in reality after you join the shining blade, the Vizer Mysteriously steps in with his undead powers and begins playing you like a puppet. His plan is to get the scepter and screw you over at the end by causing you to open Komalie so he can use the scepter's powers in order to control the titans and rule the world.

Of course Glint knows all of this and to her its like watching days of our lives, she already knows whats going to happen but sometimes she steps in and gives you some draconian guidance just to spice the show up for herself. After all she was one of the dragons that wrote the flameseeker prophecies in the first place.

All the while the four gods just kind of chill around and watch humans who have ascended fight to their hall or heros and perform a gladiator show. They are too busy moderating Korea, Japan, America, and Europe to worry about armageddon in Tyria. When they care, the pop out and give you a +2 moral boost to cheer you on.

So there you go, simple summary of everything going on with Tyria.

To answer your question, I believe the Mursaat didn't start "evil" because they chose to help Alessio by reviving him in the first place. However when they found out all the fun they could have with human souls, they got a little twisted and did some not so nice things. However it was for the good of the world that they kept the door sealed. Most likely they did out of fear and the flameseeker prophecies come true with each event despite what they tried to do to stop it probably drove them crazy. Thats probably why they went to such extreme measures to seal komalie, even if it meant saccing human souls. I like the mursaat and according to the manual they still have some unseen world where the hailed from in existence somewhere. I would like to see more of the mursaat if that is possible, as a new race or class even.

The mursaat are like humans, just cooler looking and they float (that touch hurts too). Mursaat, like humans are afflicted by corruption and paranoia. They collapsed under the pressure of a forboding end of the world dilemma and started going crazy. It would be unfair to say all mursaat are evil.

I may write some fan fiction on this interesting subject at some time so check lyssas fiction if I start feeling a little productive.


lol i liked the way you siad this story.

[Mournblade]

Quoting an entire 100 line post to make a 9 word reply - WINNER!

[I pwnd U]

MAJOR SPOILERS******



This is very interesting... I read through the GW manuscripts just to check up on these things....

From the looks of it, it all started with the four gods of course (and many lesser gods that were pwned in ancient battles). The manuscripts said that when the four greater gods rose to power and left to oversee the realm they dropped the bloodstones onto the world. This is where I believe the Titans come into play. Perhaps the Titans were weapons of the gods that were left stored within the titan's source before the divine wars ended with Dwayna, Grenth, Balth, and Melandru pwning everyone. The Titans probably plopped down into the world along with the bloodstones.

After this the world was primordial in the aftermath of the bloodstone fall and the gods pretty much chilled back for now.

About this time the serpents (Dragons) took over the world as mystical creatures and began to sheperd the world. These dragons had some sense of foreseeing time and in their age of glory they created the flameseeker prophecies, pretty much outlining the future of what is to come.

The dragon's foresight proved to be right and the new race they have been expecting appeared in Tyria... mankind. At this point the serpents knew some real bad poop was gonna hit the fan so they said peace out to the world and their duties.

Man brought war and empires to the world and of course the not so fun stuff outline in the dragon's flameseeker prophecies starts happening. A few dragons like Glint and Kunie stayed around to see what was gonna happen out of curiosity.

While this is going on the mursaat and the seers race and embroiled in some huge war with alot of mass slaughter going down (in some other world or plane). The Mursaat WTF pwn the Seers race and the Seer escapes into the world of man. The mursaat kind of chill in their own world for now.

Man erects three massive kingdoms: Orr, Ascalon, and Kryta. The guild wars start and a whole crap load of people start dying. About this time, the beast race of charr discover the titan's source and release the titans. The charr begin worshipping the divine flames of wrath as gods and start spreading destruction because their fiery gods only exist to consume and destroy.

So while all three of these kingdoms are fighting. The charr suddenly roar from the north with flaming titan power and WTF pwn the human races. Ascalon goes down the drain.

While this is going on, Orrians discover some ancient draconian lore and attempt to become more than human by grasping this power and ascending (which is kind of like elevating the power of your spirit, something that dragons know how to do.) Glint believes humans aren't ready for this and her legions of forgotten WTF pwn the humans.

As the charr are wiping out the humans the march into Orr and as a last resort the rulers of Orr resort to an ancient artifact that was leftover from the ages of the gods (as old as the dragons and titans): The sceptor of orr (Which was probably sealed away in the tombs of primordial kings, which functions as a gate between our world and that of the gods.). In using the scepter, which has the power to control souls and the dead, the Orrians screw up and blow themselves away, transforming Orr into a giant wasteland and everyone into undead. Vizer Khilbron is transformed into the undead lich and his greed for domination of the world may be related to the "something that went wrong" with the scepter.

The charr march closer to Kryta and De'Alessio is exiled into the jungle at this point. As a nobody he stumbles into a cross world gate and meets the Mursaat, who look like divine angels to him. Alessio comes back with the aid of the mursaat after pledging is devotion to them and with the Mursaat manipulating events in the shadows, the Mantle Pwn the Charr.

Somehow during this course of events the Mursaat stumble across the bloodstone and discover how to use its powers in order to create seals and armors out of powerful human souls that have a destiny. The only way they could seal the titans away and allow the Krytans to beat the charr is to use human souls in order to charge a soul battery they built and lock the titans behind the door of komalie. Yeah its not pretty but it works... the Mursaat decide not to tell humans about this but instead manipulate the mantle into getting more human souls for them so they can feed their hungry gate against oblivion. Only select people in the mantle heirachy know the truth, such as Hablion and Dorian.

In some place, the mantle scour the ruins of orr and find the scepter. The scepter has some really bad prophecy mojo around it so they seal it in some temple. However, the scepter is linked to the undead and Vizer Khilbron (the old vizer of Orr who is now twisted and manipulative.). By bringing the scepter of orr into kryta they screw up and allow the scheming undead passage into their lands.

Of course some people find out that the chosen are being sacced and form the shining blade to fight the mantle. The shining blade retreat into the forest and begin calling for the aid of the druids in order to fight the mantle. The forest guardians are bored and have nothing really to do so they aid them with little hints but nothing to extreme (Like Dark Oak). The Druids probably just want the mantle out of their forests. Also the mursaat soul magic probably seems evil and unnatural to them.

Now the games starts, and you do all your stuff and get involved. You eventually ascend but in reality after you join the shining blade, the Vizer Mysteriously steps in with his undead powers and begins playing you like a puppet. His plan is to get the scepter and screw you over at the end by causing you to open Komalie so he can use the scepter's powers in order to control the titans and rule the world.

Of course Glint knows all of this and to her its like watching days of our lives, she already knows whats going to happen but sometimes she steps in and gives you some draconian guidance just to spice the show up for herself. After all she was one of the dragons that wrote the flameseeker prophecies in the first place.

All the while the four gods just kind of chill around and watch humans who have ascended fight to their hall or heros and perform a gladiator show. They are too busy moderating Korea, Japan, America, and Europe to worry about armageddon in Tyria. When they care, the pop out and give you a +2 moral boost to cheer you on.

So there you go, simple summary of everything going on with Tyria.

To answer your question, I believe the Mursaat didn't start "evil" because they chose to help Alessio by reviving him in the first place. However when they found out all the fun they could have with human souls, they got a little twisted and did some not so nice things. However it was for the good of the world that they kept the door sealed. Most likely they did out of fear and the flameseeker prophecies come true with each event despite what they tried to do to stop it probably drove them crazy. Thats probably why they went to such extreme measures to seal komalie, even if it meant saccing human souls. I like the mursaat and according to the manual they still have some unseen world where the hailed from in existence somewhere. I would like to see more of the mursaat if that is possible, as a new race or class even.

The mursaat are like humans, just cooler looking and they float (that touch hurts too). Mursaat, like humans are afflicted by corruption and paranoia. They collapsed under the pressure of a forboding end of the world dilemma and started going crazy. It would be unfair to say all mursaat are evil.

I may write some fan fiction on this interesting subject at some time so check lyssas fiction if I start feeling a little productive.



Well i think you covered it all. :D

[Amy Awien]

Did you add the "well" just to make it to 7 words?

I can be very, very brief on the issue

Mursaat were good?

No. They sacrificed people to achieve their goals. That makes them non-good - or evil.

Nothing much to discuss, whatever their reasons or goals, since goals never justify the means, their goals are irrelevant.

[NinjaKai]

No. They sacrificed people to achieve their goals. That makes them non-good - or evil.

Nothing much to discuss, whatever their reasons or goals, since goals never justify the means, their goals are irrelevant. I think your ignoring the different perspectives here. By the Mursaat view point they we're preventing a prophecy from coming to pass that could doom Tyria if the Ascended chosen failed. They viewed it as a big risk. So they sacrificed the chosen to keep the Door of Komali and the titans sealed.

From your view they are evil and you are good. From their view they are doing what they consider to be best for Tyria. And you are trying to interfere. If I could I would have sided with the mutsaat. ;P

[DarthLasing]

Did you add the "well" just to make it to 7 words?

I can be very, very brief on the issue



No. They sacrificed people to achieve their goals. That makes them non-good - or evil.

Nothing much to discuss, whatever their reasons or goals, since goals never justify the means, their goals are irrelevant.

Just becaused they sacrificed people doesn't mean there not good, every people, every race has a different point of view on what good and bad is. The nazi's and hitler killed jews because they thought they we're a "plague", but at there point of view, they are good, and others opposed them. Like the aztecs, sacrificing there own people to the gods as offering, they did it so the gods would like there people, why? They didn't want to die and have the gods destroy them and send them plagues, drouts, or storms. They would consider that smart, others would consider that ignorant and oppose that. So just because they did what they had to do doesn't mean there evil.



From your view they are evil and you are good. From their view they are doing what they consider to be best for Tyria. And you are trying to interfere. If I could I would have sided with the mutsaat. ;P

I agree :D

[Amy Awien]

I have heard nobody considering the perspective, or the point of view of the sacrificed Chosen.

Edit Btw:
... and you are good.
No, I like to believe that I am Good, but I know that I am not. But that is not the issue here.

[some guy]

In my opinion they are just trying to survive, they know some day the Titans will be released and they will die, so they are doing every thing they can to prevent that.

[DarthLasing]

I have heard nobody considering the perspective, or the point of view of the sacrificed Chosen.

Edit Btw:

No, I like to believe that I am Good, but I know that I am not. But that is not the issue here.


As I said, everyone has a different point of view, some people think there evil, some don't.

[The Cheerful]

Given the choice, I would have joined the Mursaat. Seem like nice enough fellows to me. But of course, the stupid Mantle attack you before they even ask if you care about the chosen being killed.

[Amy Awien]

As I said, everyone has a different point of view, some people think there evil, some don't.

I suppose it's easier not to consider the point of view of the sacrificed chosen.

[frojack]

You make an interesting case, but you have to remember that they didn't just sacrifice anyone. They chose certain individuals. This supports the theory that they were trying to prevent a greater 'evil' from occuring.

As with every good story, no one is either completely evil, or completely good. From Star Wars to Gone with the Wind...

[NinjaKai]

No, I like to believe that I am Good, but I know that I am not. But that is not the issue here. Thats called splitting hairs.

[Eldin]

The Seers and Mursaat are neither good nor evil. They are simply fighting with one another, and wish to prevent the prophecy which fortells their doom. The same goes for the Mantle, who are even less evil than the Mursaat - they're just the Mursaat's lackeys.

"Ooo...kill that Chosen or I will melt you! Ooo! Beware my power!"
-Mursaat

[Blazing]

still laughing of your theory :D but its actually the one i believe the most acurate.

My conspiracy is: They are all just Pupets in the hands of Glint & that makes them fight against one another while she its popcorns while watching heroes trying to solve the mistery.

But thats just my opinion :D ;) :D

[Mezmo]

Good and evil can all be seen as a matter of perspective.

The mursatts probably thought themselves to be very good since they were the ones guarding the door holding the titans at bay.

People that got killed by them probably didn't think to highly of them. ;)

And the Charr thought of everything but themselves and the titans as evil so yeah, i think they thought the mursatt were evil.

Druids i don't think really cared so long as thier forest weren't destroyed.

Ascalon probably doesn't care since they are already on the brink of destruction from the charr.

The stone summit hate everyone but themselves.

Anyone else wants to add some races go ahead.
:D

[Markaedw]

still laughing of your theory :D but its actually the one i believe the most acurate.

My conspiracy is: They are all just Pupets in the hands of Glint & that makes them fight against one another while she its popcorns while watching heroes trying to solve the mistery.

But thats just my opinion :D ;) :D

Well If you're an imortal dragon, you got to get you jolly somehow. Hanging out in a grain of sand can get boring fast.

[Phrozenflame]

Good or bad is a point of view my young padawans

[lapsus]

Ah a true star wars fan not you are, there is no good or evil only the force there is

[Numa Pompilius]

The lich comes pretty close to textbook evil, though: insanely egotistical.

(Also pretty dumb and careless, and probably an unwitting pawn of Glint, but that's besides the point.)

[Amy Awien]

Ah a true star wars fan not you are, there is no good or evil only the force there is

Fear leads to anger and anger leads to the dark-side. The mursaat's fear of the Prophecies led them to to the darkside :p

[Chris A]

Lordhelmos=brilliance FTW.... in cunjuction with this i kinda posted a little while to day on another site about this and the ch. 3 suposidly tying everything up. heres that post PS ALSO MAJOR SPOILERS. keep in mind im new to posting but i've read about everything on this subject and came up with how plot line might come to end. This whole concept of "who, what and why" really grabbed my attention when i started doing Fow and UW about a year ago. Since then i've been combing forums all over for answers and have found many interesting ideas that all go very neatly together. I will attempt to put everything I've heard from various forums into one neat plotline. I in no way claim the orriginal ideas for myself but mearly just putting the bits and peices together in a logical way. I am in no way god nor do i say my word is law is all pure speculation, all beit very good speculation. Having said that i will say this, This will be long so i apologize in advance, and WILL ALSO CONTAIN SPOILERS. also if the moderator feels this better fits somewhere ealse, plz move it to where it may be more usefull.



Now it all starts about 200 years ago(my timing maybe wrong but bare with me as i state a few guesses here). At this time Dhum and/or Menzies are thrown out of the circle of the gods. Being all po'ed by this the intend to destory wat the gods made. Thus they cause the Titains to ravage the world. This is when the world turns to King Doric. He seeks help from the gods and is giving the sceptor of orr to subdue the titains and lock them behind the door of kamolie.



Around this time Dhum and/or Menzies seeks to use the humans against the other gods in cantha. Dhumn/or Menzies impersonates the fourtune teller and tells Shiro of a vast conspiricy to kill him. As this forth telling start to come to pass Shiro is left with one option, kill the emperor. When is himself is slain his death wail turns the whole....blah blah blah you now this part. But, what you didnt see was Dhum/Menzies comes to Shiro and offers him revenge. They inted for him to use the affliction 200 yrs later to destoy cantha.



2yrs Before present day. Dhumn/Menzies turn back to Tyria. They give the charr the power to to sear ascalon and destory the world. After Alberden and Rurik mustered a defense against the beasts and kryta used the white mantle/Mursaat to destory the charr there, Dhumn/Menzies decieded to use the Vizor in Orr. When the Vizor seeks their counsel, they give him the power to kill the charr, and all of Orr, and settle a grudge with the old gods by destorying their prized city. Then Dhumn/Menzies ressurects the Vizor and gives him a similar offer they gave Shiro, and the Lich is born.



Present day, we'll hope back to cantha. Shiro uses the power he was given and trained with and raises an army of afflicted. However a double cross is made. Shiro Finds a way to become human. When Dhumn/Menzies realize this they send the 'envoys' to res you at viznuah sqaure. You then end up doing Dhumn's/Menzies's dirty work by defeating Shiro.



Well that was a short plot but thats a different debate.Now to Tyria



About half way through the story line in proph.(after the searing now) The White mantle find the sceptor of orr they only thing that can control the titans(why is under vast speculation wether the Murssaat wanted more control over the titans in case the door failed or if the mantle found out that the Lich was Looking for it, which he was). So the Lich now knows the local of the sceptor, but he cant get to it. He uses the army Dhumn/Menzies provided him with and forces the sceptor out of human control. In the Sanctum Kay mission you give him said sceptor, he is then very happy now. Now he uses the flameseeker prophcies against you to find the only way to the fire island and the door. The rest is history, hes gets control of titains and attempts to destory humanity, But you stop him and the titains.



Also to clear up any Mursaat/ Searer relations. Way back when King dorick asked the gods for help, the Mursaat(maybe from elona judging by the wings?)ally with the humans and seeks to destroy the Titains(yes i just said the Mursaat were once the good guys).The Searers i deem by their appareance are closly related to Menzies shadow army(ps they too maybe from elona due to the wings).Just so you know I'm getting the wing=elona idea from the GW Preveiw video where a monster had very white wings. Now the Searers give you a way to protect yourself against the mursaat. Why? Cause the Lich needed you to kill them and find the way to the fire island and the Searers had that means to help you. That clears up the reason why the mursaat knew of the Door and tried to keep it close.



Now the conclusion of the matter. Dhumn/Menzies are battling the 5 Main gods. Both sides used Humans to thier advantage. The Mursaat helped Humans even though they hated the old gods because of the titain threat. the Searers were Like the High Preists of Menzies Shadow army. The titains were too apart of this army. This leaves humans in the middle. I frankly wont coment on what the hell Glint had with anything, she can go either way IMO. Therefore, in NF there will be an all out war as Dhumn/Menzies get really tired of losing all the time and just go all out war in Elona(since mostly the gods will have thier gaze in the dessert, tyria, and cantha) in a surprise move. I expect the Mursaat and possibly the Searers in NF along with Shiro(the ghostly hero anyone?) possibly trying to make things right. Also i expect the 'envoys' here too, we may find out that thier the generals of Menzies and that they act as the four hoursemen of the apocalypse(much like Dhumn Hoursmen in UW).


Anywho just my take/guessing/putting the bits and peices together. This may all very well be just my rambling on, but hey this is my take on it. Now take it as you will.



ps. ill lmao if i get on tonight and find out my accounts been banned for blabing the whole story line of ch. 3 ;P.

also if i have any gaps here refer to Lordhelmos for the fillers.

[Mark Nevermiss]

What I would have liked to see is multiple endings of both campaigns Prophecies and Factions based on your choices. It would be cool if you could end up assissting Shiro if you wanted, for example, ditto for the mursaat.

[Ethiops]

I dont think that the Mursaat were evil overall. They had good intentions (stopping the release of the Titans...which were evil) But just had a bad way of doing it. Humans werent so different, they've killed billions of other species for the preservation of their own, which is all the Mursaat are doing. If anything humans are eviler than the Mursaat, because the Mursaat are actually protecting all of Tyria, including the humans and such. Wouldn't you kill a man, if it was to save the lives of billions?

That and self preservation, which all organisms do, including humans.

[bigwig]

Their intentions were solely to insure that *they* weren't destroyed, and they murdered innocent people to save themselves. yeah, real nice guys.

[Chris A]

Wouldn't you kill a man, if it was to save the lives of billions?


True Mr. Spock, However many villains have used this to do many atrocious deeds. I'll give the Mursaat A for effort, but i give them a F for trying to kill us. Yes their intention MAY have been noble(though they did still want to over rule all humans anyway), the way they 'exacutued'(pun intended) was totally wrong.

[Kane Inverse]

Well, I think the good/evil thing rolls a few different ways, starting with Glint.

- Glint: She already knew everything that was going to happen. She knew you wouldn't die and knew you would defeat the lich, but she could've said "Don't go there because it will unravel a plot that will mean the downfall of tyria."

But the real problem in the chain starts with the Charr, it goes liek this:

Charr attack Ascalon, Kryta and Orr ---> Vizier Kihbrilon uses Black Magic to decimate Orr and turns himself into the Lich ---> Saul D'Alessio finds White Mantle and they help to defeat Charr ---> Scepter of Orr unearthed in Kryta draws Lich's attention ----> Lich attacks Kryta for Scepter ----> Mursaat fear Lich's power because of Titan threat and kill chosen to keep Door of Komalie closed

And at the same time, coming from Ascalon....

Searing causes your group to move into the Shiverpeaks ---> Move through Shiverpeaks into Kryta ----> Justiciar Habilion asks for your aid to defeat undead forces ---> Your group presses on to aid White Mantle in Maguuma Jungle ---> Shining Blade cross paths with you and explain the Mantle's Plot ---> White Mantle become enemies ---> Shining Blade ally with Vizier Kihbrilon to gain Scepter of Orr ---> Lich unleashes Titans

So if the Vizier had not destroyed Orr, none of this would have happened. However, the titan effegies found in Pre-Searing beyond the wall indicates the Charr existed when the Titans did and they were underlings to them. Maybe the Titans ordered the Charr Army to attack the Human Kingdoms?

[AJM]

I dont think that the Mursaat were evil overall. They had good intentions (stopping the release of the Titans...which were evil) But just had a bad way of doing it. Humans werent so different, they've killed billions of other species for the preservation of their own, which is all the Mursaat are doing. If anything humans are eviler than the Mursaat, because the Mursaat are actually protecting all of Tyria, including the humans and such. Wouldn't you kill a man, if it was to save the lives of billions?

That and self preservation, which all organisms do, including humans.

No, the Mursaat used the White Mantle as glorified hunting dogs, and judging from the obscurity of the Seer's race, probably waged a war of genocide against them (the Seers, that is). They had nothing against the blasphemous act of using human souls (which 'belong' to Grenth, and Grenth alone) to fuel the bloodstones, which are supposed to be forbidden to mortals in the first place.

I believe their reasoning for keeping the titans behind the Door of Komalie was PURELY selfish. They did not care about the rest of thw world, so long as they survived, and probably barely even considered the morality of their actions.

Of course, they would not perceive themselves as evil, but by the real world's standards of morality (those that can largely be agreed upon, at least) they are a wicked people.

Now, onto the puppetmaster. I highly doubt it's Glint. She has nothing to gain from any of this, she just sits in her cave with the ability to see everything through all of time to keep her busy. Glint is just a messenger.

Everyone else? Likely puppets, including the characters we all play. I doubt we've seen the real source of this evil, but I think the chaos in the Tombs, FoW, and UW gives a pretty good indicator. Perhaps lesser gods are planning an overthrow of the five powerful deities we know so well. Shaking up the whole mortal world would be a wise move for them, then. While Dwayna and company are busy with that, these other unknown deities prepare to make their move. The gods of Tyria are not infallible (who was that guy who beat Balthazar at what I assume is a game of 'go'?), and lesser gods could challenge them.

Plus there's this talk of a sun god... I haven't heard of one... a sixth god, perhaps? Banished? Exiled? Forgotten? We shall see. Should be fun unraveling it.

[lapsus]

Selfish isnt evil, and better them then me are very good ways to stay alive. how often do you rush in to save another character from a massive mob of enemies? To be honest if you do, good luck with drawing breath. but in being completely honest if you run away and save yourself your acting like the mursaat.

Let humanity die, they werent smart enough to figure it out anyway, so we can keep on breathing. Besides self-centeredness on their part is letting humanity stay alive. Although to some ppl ends dont justify the means. how much would your tune change if you knew unless maybe 50-100 ppl were killed everyone would die? The Mursaat are selfish and mean, but they were prudent enough to not let the titans kill everything.

The reason glint makes a great puppet master is simple, ego. You see the future, you dont die of old age, and your so strong you live in a grain of sand, what do you do for fun? Its very easy to see that Glint likes to manipulate, i.e. the whole flameseeker thing. But she is a dragon and dragons are vain territorial and mean.

Its very easy, to me atleast, to see she had alot to gain by the mursaat, the seers and the titans all dieing. All motivated by simple greed, vanity and pride. Seers can see the future that makes your foresight less useful. The mursaat are so strong they kill all the seers, dont need that walking bomb around. Lastly the titans, they are stronger then you, bigger, and by all accounts stronger. Whats a dragon to do? Have the mursaat play guard and train a powerful group of heroes to kill them and the titans, with your help.

Now with the new god in Nightfall we could see a force working even glint over for gain. With 3 super powers out, and cantha in ruins the lesser gods can make a play for power and "save" the world or destroy it. Saving the world and killing off belief in the 5 originals would effectivly destroy their power. Destroying and ruining everything would make their power worthless or draw them into an open battle.

But thats another thread........
The mursaat although selfish and greedy arnt evil theyr just selfish and greedy.

[AJM]

I don't know what sort of philosophy you live by, but I believe that selfishness and greed are the root of all evil. The devil's toolkit, if you will. Without them, there is really no reason to do anything evil.

Yes, if I had to choose between 100 people dying or everybody dying, I'd go with the former. But what if I had to be one of those 100 people? Would I choose it? I think I would. Would a mursaat? Probably only if other mursaat forced it upon him/her. As far as they are concerned, everyone else is expendable. That is evil by most people's standards.

As for Glint, what would she do if she did accomplish this supposed grand master plan? There really wouldn't be anything more to do than before. Plus things would likely be less interesting with all these problems resolved. She's simply the caretaker of the world. The gods created her for that purpose, and she's been content with that for millenia.

The titans are not more powerful than her. The fact she's still around if you kill her proves that she is not mortal. When killed, she simply comes back.

What makes you think the Seers can actually see into the future? If they could, I think they would have had more success against the Mursaat, who clearly cannot.

Oh, and 3 'superpowers'? I think there's just one. Khilbron and Shiro were it's 'toolkit'. The Charr were probably either another tool, or the impetus for all of this, causing enough chaos to get the ball rolling on our puppetmaster's plan.

As for a possible battle of the gods, I doubt the gods really depend on human worship. They were around a long time before creating humans. This isn't Black & White. :p That should make things interesting.

We'll see who's right, if anyone, in October.

[Tommy]

I don't know what sort of philosophy you live by, but I believe that selfishness and greed are the root of all evil. The devil's toolkit, if you will. Without them, there is really no reason to do anything evil.

Yes, if I had to choose between 100 people dying or everybody dying, I'd go with the former. But what if I had to be one of those 100 people? Would I choose it? I think I would. Would a mursaat? Probably only if other mursaat forced it upon him/her. As far as they are concerned, everyone else is expendable. That is evil by most people's standards.

As for Glint, what would she do if she did accomplish this supposed grand master plan? There really wouldn't be anything more to do than before. Plus things would likely be less interesting with all these problems resolved. She's simply the caretaker of the world. The gods created her for that purpose, and she's been content with that for millenia.

The titans are not more powerful than her. The fact she's still around if you kill her proves that she is not mortal. When killed, she simply comes back.

What makes you think the Seers can actually see into the future? If they could, I think they would have had more success against the Mursaat, who clearly cannot.

Oh, and 3 'superpowers'? I think there's just one. Khilbron and Shiro were it's 'toolkit'. The Charr were probably either another tool, or the impetus for all of this, causing enough chaos to get the ball rolling on our puppetmaster's plan.

As for a possible battle of the gods, I doubt the gods really depend on human worship. They were around a long time before creating humans. This isn't Black & White. :p That should make things interesting.

We'll see who's right, if anyone, in October.
then consider all American are evil:) greed and selfishness has nothing to do with evil..

[Tommy]

I don't know what sort of philosophy you live by, but I believe that selfishness and greed are the root of all evil. The devil's toolkit, if you will. Without them, there is really no reason to do anything evil.

Yes, if I had to choose between 100 people dying or everybody dying, I'd go with the former. But what if I had to be one of those 100 people? Would I choose it? I think I would. Would a mursaat? Probably only if other mursaat forced it upon him/her. As far as they are concerned, everyone else is expendable. That is evil by most people's standards.

As for Glint, what would she do if she did accomplish this supposed grand master plan? There really wouldn't be anything more to do than before. Plus things would likely be less interesting with all these problems resolved. She's simply the caretaker of the world. The gods created her for that purpose, and she's been content with that for millenia.

The titans are not more powerful than her. The fact she's still around if you kill her proves that she is not mortal. When killed, she simply comes back.

What makes you think the Seers can actually see into the future? If they could, I think they would have had more success against the Mursaat, who clearly cannot.

Oh, and 3 'superpowers'? I think there's just one. Khilbron and Shiro were it's 'toolkit'. The Charr were probably either another tool, or the impetus for all of this, causing enough chaos to get the ball rolling on our puppetmaster's plan.

As for a possible battle of the gods, I doubt the gods really depend on human worship. They were around a long time before creating humans. This isn't Black & White. :p That should make things interesting.

We'll see who's right, if anyone, in October.
then consider all American are evil:) greed and selfishness have nothing to do with evil.. and we dont care who is dying as us as not the ME!:)

[Addone_Abaddon]

Oh Noes!!! Spoilers!

[AJM]

then consider all American are evil:) greed and selfishness have nothing to do with evil.. and we dont care who is dying as us as not the ME!:)

First off all, that's a bigoted stereotype. Things like that are what keep the world in conflict, and have for the past 6000 years.

Secondly, to say greed and selfishness have nothing to do with evil is supremely naive and foolish. You're saying people don't kill each other over money, power, and other things of value they desire? You're saying that being concerned only for one's own self isn't conducive to stealing, rape, murder, torture, and pretty much and other action with causes pain and suffering to fellow human beings?

[lapsus]

meh, if someone gave me a choice, say he was going to shoot either my self or a random stranger take a guess who just got shot. And yes they do have something to do with evil but to say that they cause all of it isnt smart either. Selfishness is democracy, selfishness is the way all successful economic systems work, greed is simply an extension of that.

[Tommy]

meh, if someone gave me a choice, say he was going to shoot either my self or a random stranger take a guess who just got shot. And yes they do have something to do with evil but to say that they cause all of it isnt smart either. Selfishness is democracy, selfishness is the way all successful economic systems work, greed is simply an extension of that.
/agree
look our value is like this, we make choice that benefits most for the US<<<
we care nobody else but us<nothing personal, what my professors in my college taught me over the years>, we make rational choice that benefit only us. we are greedy and selfish, but we are not evil.If i can choose which side i am backing in Tryai I will stick with my white mantle and mursarrs brothers for sure:) we are all greedy and selfish, all human are, that is why we need education, we learn what to take and what not to take. we learn the law and the rules and the way to control our greed and selfishness.that is what made us different than animals. btw do you think the people in middle east care about us? i dont think so. selfish is the nature of human being.

[rick1027]

this reminds me of a scenario that took place during wwII. winston churchill had much the same decision. his forces had broken the nazi codes and he found out a certain town was going to be attacked. he decided at that time not to bring his forces to protect the town allowing them to be sacrificed so that the nazis wouldnt know their precious code had been broken. he felt he was saving millions by the info that was gotten from decoding the code. this same decision is the one i feel the mursatt were taking and made the same decision. quoted later winston churchill regretted the decision but still would have made the same one.

[arcanemacabre]

First of all, good and evil are completely subjective concepts. I'm sure everyone knows that. However, there is a big difference in real world implications versus a fantasy story. In the real world, there are morality issues, law, burden of proof, and cultural issues that can all blur the lines of what can be called 'good' or 'evil'. Let's leave the real world issues where they belong, out in the real world.

In GW, most if not all of those issues are completely irrelevant. The concept of morality changes with the age of the world, and is much, much different today than say in the middle ages. GW takes place in a time period that reflects the middle ages (or Medieval Times), so if any real world aspects need to be applied, morality should be applied in that context.

Just because it seems 'wrong' or 'evil' to slaughter innocents for what they think is a greater good in our modern times, doesn't mean it did in the past, or in the world of Guild Wars. Using a real world example, the inquisition saw the slaughter (and torture) of many innocents all because of a belief. For the most part, that was not seen as 'evil' then, in fact it was seen as 'good'.

Laws also change with the times, but also differ among cultures, too. We have no idea what the 'laws' of the societies in GW are, so we can't even apply this. Is it wrong to kill? Evil? In today's society, many would say "absolutely", but in GW? We get rewarded often for killing and dishing out our own justice. Cannot be applied.

Burden of proof. What I mean here is the justice system to prove innocence (or 'good') versus guilty (or 'evil'). Related to laws, except this deals with the proof of such wrongdoings. Basically, this is where I will compare the White Mantle to the Nazi's...

The White Mantle effectively follow 'unseen gods'. They do many -seemingly immoral- things (again, subjective, but hang in there) like slaughtering innocents on Bloodstones for these gods they can't even see. They do this because they're -told- that this is for the greater good (possibly, they might just be doing it blindly). Without any proof of this greater good, they just follow orders, don't ask questions, and kill, kill, kill. See a correlation to the Nazi's, there? (yes, I know Hitler did exists, but his ideals didn't, they were just invisible promises and ideals that were romanticized)

Now, I'm not going to straight up say that the Nazi's were evil, or even that Hitler was evil. That conclusion is for you to draw, with your own definition of what is considered 'evil'. I am saying that I think the White Mantle operated like the Nazi's. Which essentially makes the Mursaat, Hitler.

The big difference here between Hitler and the Mursaat is that the Mursaat potentially had a good reason for operating as they did. This could potentially redeem them. However, the White Mantle still operated based on faith of their word, and without mercy, for no apparent reason.

So, in summary, if anyone was the most 'evil', in my opinion, it was the White Mantle. The ironic part is they portrayed themselves as warriors of light (wearing white and acting like paladins). We have learned from our own past, that that is usually a sign of grim intentions (like the crusades, for example).

Wow... I talk(type) a lot... :o

[AJM]

meh, if someone gave me a choice, say he was going to shoot either my self or a random stranger take a guess who just got shot. And yes they do have something to do with evil but to say that they cause all of it isnt smart either. Selfishness is democracy, selfishness is the way all successful economic systems work, greed is simply an extension of that.

Selfishness is democracy? I think selfishness would be despotism. The most selfish and powerful rules. Democracy is the least selfish political system active in the world today, because it takes into account the feelings and needs of others. Whether, after taking that into account, it is ignored, is irrelevant. In other systems, it would not be taken into account in the first place.

Also, early economic systems, based on bartering, were fueled by need, not greed. "My crops are failing but my livestock are healthy. I see you have no sheep. I'll give you five sheep for eight bales of grain." No greed there. One guy needs grain to eat. He offers the guy with grain something he has an excess of, but the other guy does not. Of course, greed can come into the equation if they start haggling, but that haggling isn't required, the guy with the grain could just agree and take the sheep. The impetus for the whole deal is the need for a man to get some grain.

/agree
look our value is like this, we make choice that benefits most for the US<<<
we care nobody else but us<nothing personal, what my professors in my college taught me over the years>, we make rational choice that benefit only us. we are greedy and selfish, but we are not evil.If i can choose which side i am backing in Tryai I will stick with my white mantle and mursarrs brothers for sure:) we are all greedy and selfish, all human are, that is why we need education, we learn what to take and what not to take. we learn the law and the rules and the way to control our greed and selfishness.that is what made us different than animals. btw do you think the people in middle east care about us? i dont think so. selfish is the nature of human being.

I don't believe that is the nature of humanity. It is an abberation caused by the fact we use a social system we have not yet evolved for. Our psychology is still set up for living fairly peacefully in little tribes... yet we live in comparitively immense social groups. This promotes greed.

A good example is in our closest relatives, chimps. Jane Goodall found that they are not normally greedy. Violent, yes, but not greedy. They shared amongst themselves and cooperated. Then she gave them a crate of bananas (a fruit native to the americas, not the chimps' native Africa)... they went batshit crazy and started hitting and screaming at each other, and hoarding the bananas, something they would not do in the conditions for which they are psychologically evolved.

I believe greed and selfishness are artificially induced. Back before the dawn of civilization, there was no reason for greed, unless there was a severe drought or famine, and even then, cooperation was usually more conducive to survival. It's hard to hunt or grow crops if you kill everyone else, or if everyone hoards everything.

this reminds me of a scenario that took place during wwII. winston churchill had much the same decision. his forces had broken the nazi codes and he found out a certain town was going to be attacked. he decided at that time not to bring his forces to protect the town allowing them to be sacrificed so that the nazis wouldnt know their precious code had been broken. he felt he was saving millions by the info that was gotten from decoding the code. this same decision is the one i feel the mursatt were taking and made the same decision. quoted later winston churchill regretted the decision but still would have made the same one.

Winston Churchill was fighting the Nazis. That was his goal, and I think few will debate that fighting Hitler was a good goal.

The Mursaat are fighting for survival. That is their goal. There goal is not to protect the world, or to stop a great evil, it is to survive, and if they believe that entails murder and genocide, they don't give it a second thought. Put in the same situation described above, they would likely make the same decision, but I doubt it would weigh on their conscience, as it did Churchill's.

They really don't care if they're saving the world in the process of saving themselves. If the titans were not interested in them, they'd simply let them run loose and kill everybody else.

Basically, the Mursaat, while having their own cultural view of morality which says they are good, would be viewed as evil by the people in the GW world.

As for the whole USA thing, every country puts itself before others. The US is simply more bold about it.

[lapsus]

The reason i say selfishness is what makes democracy work is because we want and demand to be heard above other people, selfishly trying to benefit. Selfishness is the reason we still breathe today, the founding fathers acted selfishly by declaring independance. They wanted to have no one over them and to have complete control over their government. that is the definition of selfish action. selfish actions are wars, i dont have to burn this city but ill make it worthless to the enemy, selfishly turning the people in town homeless.

Democracy is the majority rule the opinions of the lesser have no say. With an altered democracy feelings get taken into account and although the majority still wins there are concessions to the weaker.

greed is defined as a desire for something beyond ones needs, i have 5 chickens i need only 5 but want 7. Wanting the extra 2 chickens so you can safely trade for say a cow or cash is greed, you dont need the money or the cow but you want it. that my friend is capitalism pure and simple. Greed is what drives every person to greatness. I want this knowledge, I want to develope this faster carrige so I can be there faster. We dont need cars, we dont need to know astro-physics, we dont need to know how to speak greed and selfishness there. If a town hoardes its crops in early civilization then it will survive, if it fights off its neighbors it survives. that is greed and selfishness.

Darwin said the strong will survive and in a world (GW) that is readily visible. kill to stay alive, kill to grow stronger, kill to make money, its not evil its life.

[Pick Me]

The reason i say selfishness is what makes democracy work is because we want and demand to be heard above other people, selfishly trying to benefit. Selfishness is the reason we still breathe today, the founding fathers acted selfishly by declaring independance. They wanted to have no one over them and to have complete control over their government. that is the definition of selfish action. selfish actions are wars, i dont have to burn this city but ill make it worthless to the enemy, selfishly turning the people in town homeless.

Democracy is the majority rule the opinions of the lesser have no say. With an altered democracy feelings get taken into account and although the majority still wins there are concessions to the weaker.

greed is defined as a desire for something beyond ones needs, i have 5 chickens i need only 5 but want 7. Wanting the extra 2 chickens so you can safely trade for say a cow or cash is greed, you dont need the money or the cow but you want it. that my friend is capitalism pure and simple. Greed is what drives every person to greatness. I want this knowledge, I want to develope this faster carrige so I can be there faster. We dont need cars, we dont need to know astro-physics, we dont need to know how to speak greed and selfishness there. If a town hoardes its crops in early civilization then it will survive, if it fights off its neighbors it survives. that is greed and selfishness.

Darwin said the strong will survive and in a world (GW) that is readily visible. kill to stay alive, kill to grow stronger, kill to make money, its not evil its life.

I'm sorry, but I must disagree with some of what you just said.

Greed does not drive people to greatness. Your definition of greed would mean if you want/desire anything above food, shelter and clothing (only the most minimal of each) then it you become greedy. In which case, fine, everyone is greedy and it does drive people to greatness.

I think greed is a desire for things in excess of a comfortable life style. A 500k house is comfortable (maybe 600k now adays), but a 10 million dollar house is inexcess. Clothing from Winners is comfortable, but clothing stitched by hand, woven in the finest silk is excessive. If you have 100 million dollars, a wonderful family, a wonderful job, great friends, but you desire to control the entire world from your laz-e-boy in you den, that is greed (way too excessive).

Fighting to defend yourself is not selfishness. If you have 100 k and a begger asks you for 5 cents, and you decide not to give that begger 5 cents because you want to keep it for yourself, that is greed and selfishness.

Technology is not greed nor selfishness. Its an easier way to do things. Basically, its laziness. :D

Darwin's theory of evolution (only the strong survives) while it is true, it isn't the only theory. I mean lets face it, the flu, the common cold, etc. can potentially kill people with weak immune systems. But people with normal immune systems or even those with strong immune systems will take flu shots, pills, cough syrup, etc. to get rid of their ailment. Dependancy on such medication will reduce their immune system (as their bodies will not produce enough white blood cells to combat foreign invaders). So what you are saying is, people are greedy because they won't lie there and die by the flu, they will laugh in Darwin's face because they use medicine to help their weak immune system combat a stronger force and survive. This would dictate that a weaker defender with the aid of a temporary strong re-enforcement can defeat a stronger foe. Staying alive according to you is greed