Warriors don't HAVE to tank ya know...

[Fox Reeveheart]

This kind of goes along with that there warrior strike arguement... half of me wants to sign it... other half says no... too torn.

Why is it that if you are a warrior you are automatically assumed to be a tank. What kind of bullcrap is that?

When you first made a warrior what did you want to be? You wanted to be a high damage dealer and beat people down with your axe/sword/hammer! Not for people to tell you to bring defy/deny pain or stuff like that and whatnot!

I never really heard about tanking since UW was basically put in tombs.

So let me get this straight, you stand still and take damage... WOW Q.Q

oh and as someone else said, for many people you are NOT the first target, so doesn't that defeat you being a tank anyways?

Not to mention we have strength! doesnt anyone make strength/weapon(axe/hammer/sword) builds anymore?

I am working to make a nice judges insight/primal rage build for 40% armor penetration =)

I can already take a little more damage than others, I just want to be a hardcore melee damage dealer!

[yamero]

judges insight offers 20% penetration NOT +20% penetration

[Zinger314]

So let me get this straight, you stand still and take damage... WOW Q.QYes.

If more Warriors did that, this game would be too easy. :rolleyes:

[SojiroTenken]

i totally AGREE- Tanking is near useless as of now-- monsters do not focus on one specific player, they spread all around. Sure, there are still ways to hold aggro, but theres a GUARANTEED chance someone mill mess up and draw the aggro from you. A warrior at close range can do more DPS than any other class-- so thats what Warriors should be-- DAMAGE MACHINES!

[Ulivious The Reaper]

last time i checked running 15 swords and 9 str i've hit 117 on a Ele before, so i supposed if i was to use my axe i'd hit for more, which is why i'm not complaining as much as most warriors


i use hundred blades (to build adrenaline) and tiger stance for a stance and then standing slash, silverwing and sun & moon, i can officallly solo a toucher and tear up mesmers, it's so fun watching them fall to the floor

[yamero]

warriors are damage dealers in pvp only ppl...

in pve even an elemental monstaer has 100-120 armor plus they are 4-8 lvls above us

[Fox Reeveheart]

judges insight offers 20% penetration NOT +20% penetration

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Judge%27s_Insight

there ya go o.o it says +20% armor penetration

primal rage has 20% armor penetration, but if you look at what guild wiki says about armor penetration... basically the two stack. And I have people telling me it does stack. Maybe they are liars o_o... or idiots O_O

but yes, I don't want to just sit there and take it... I made a warrior to fight! People want to be too highly coordinated in these games... thats why I stay away from pvp 98% of the time.

[SojiroTenken]

warriors are damage dealers in pvp only ppl...

in pve even an elemental monstaer has 100-120 armor plus they are 4-8 lvls above us

And what use would warriors be in pve then? tanking? absorption? These days, warriors can barley tank at all-- HOLDING AGGRO IS NEAR IMPOSSIBLE WITH THE TYPICAL GROUP,

[Ulivious The Reaper]

check it out on that 100 armour level dummy, find what damage you do without primal rage, and without insight, then with insight, and iwhtout primal, then with primal and not insight, then both, if it stacks it should change in some way

[lightblade]

same goes with elementist...

everybody assume they're the "nuker", while elementist can be a better tank than warriors.

The 5 ward spells: Melee, Foe, Harm, Stability, Element
Obsidian Flesh
Mirror of Ice
Mist Form
Armor of Earth
Kinetic Armor

oh yea...earth elementist = 60 + 50 + 70 + 20 = 200 AL!!!
then you can use ward against foe to trap enemy and ward against melee to help ally
Kinetic Armor can be refreshed with Inspiried Hex on ally with no hex on them

[yspark901]

I play a warrior, and I never play a tank... 'a'//

[prodigy ming]

maybe I just have bad experiences... but whenever a elementalist tries to tank, 9 times of of 10, he dies fast. really fast.

[narud]

tanking and damage dealing can easily go together when vs other melee. Riposte, deadly riposte, gladiators defense, nice spam of final thrust, with bonnettis defense for energy. Or just look at my variant of fow spider killin, super spam of cleave even with flurry up and occasional executioners strike drops them really fast. And with watch yourself and dolyak signet you almost take no damage. Bring a dmg reduction sheild and have axe set for damage dealing and you do tanking and dmg easy.

But of course we dont have to ONLY tank. Do both and youre a REAL tank, cannon and all.

[narud]

same goes with elementist...

everybody assume they're the "nuker", while elementist can be a better tank than warrior's.

And ritualist too:eek: . I just saw a rit/me run into a group of two bosses and ele monsters and come out without dropping below 50% hp. Thats a sight.

[James Larry]

Ne way since warriors have the highest al in the game the monsters will always go for softer targets like ele and monks and everytime a ele or monk or whatever gets hit they blame it on the warrior for "not keeping them focused on you"

[Shadowfox1125]

warriors are damage dealers in pvp only ppl...

in pve even an elemental monstaer has 100-120 armor plus they are 4-8 lvls above us
And your point is..?

If you are so confined to thinking that warriors are only tanks in PvE, support your argument or try to convince us. So what if a lvl 24-25 Ele monster has 100-120 AL? Does that mean warriors should just stand there and take the damage? You're wearing your armor regardless if you're a "tank" or a damage dealing warrior. You can't Bonettis or Riposte or Glad's Defence Ele skills, so maybe you should try to help your team by attacking the Ele, trying to kill it, and healing yourself every once in a while to lower the load of the monks on your team. Maybe "tanking" is effective on Orozar runs and farming, but for a majority of the missions, quests, etc, Warriors should be used as damage dealers. It's fun to do 100+ damage to an Ele or Mes creature.

Whenever I play my warrior, I say "Warrior LFG," never, "TANK LFG."

Amen, Fox.

[Xaero Gouki Kriegor]

I know the difference between a tank and a warrior, i just type out tank cus its more easier and has less letters then warrior lol

[TadaceAce]

same goes with elementist...

everybody assume they're the "nuker", while elementist can be a better tank than warriors.

The 5 ward spells: Melee, Foe, Harm, Stability, Element
Obsidian Flesh
Mirror of Ice
Mist Form
Armor of Earth
Kinetic Armor

oh yea...earth elementist = 60 + 50 + 70 + 20 = 200 AL!!!
then you can use ward against foe to trap enemy and ward against melee to help ally
Kinetic Armor can be refreshed with Inspiried Hex on ally with no hex on them

not to mention they monster WILL attack the ele a lot more than the war because when they do AL check they see 60 armor.

Every time you see somebody advertising "tank lfg" you know its gonna be a nub wammo that does less damage than the monk wanding inbetween heals.

[lambda the great]

I hate the word 'Tank'... which is why I use barbarian lfg(I don't pug(well it's very rare henchies ftw)). Barbarian=Able to hold aggro, stay alive and do very nice dmg.

[Xaero Gouki Kriegor]

heh, thats good term actualy, barbarians in Diablo 2 w3r3 t4h FtW!

[Jestah]

maybe I just have bad experiences... but whenever a elementalist tries to tank, 9 times of of 10, he dies fast. really fast.

How about you just DON'T have a tank at all, it rarely works, it's overkill when it does and it's BORING.

Not that I PvE much any more but anyone shouting "stance tank lfg" can stay the hell away from my party.

BTW: Warriors get so little attention in PvE since the AI update (thank you Anet for nerfing noobs) that I've even tried running frenzy there and it was actually pretty effective.

[wilebill]

I guess if your tactics attrib exceeds your weapon attrib, and you have more defense skills on your bar than attack skills, you are a tank. Tanking has never worked for me, though.

In PvE, solo with henchies, config like you want, but carry a no-attrib longbow, something like 8-11 damage. Start combat with that, get the henchies to aggro. The henchies are most effective when you are at range and the healer is not having to fling healing spells at you. Same thing works solo henching with an assassin.

[LifeInfusion]

Whenever I play my warrior, I say "Warrior LFG," never, "TANK LFG."


I never say Tank LFG either.

Tank is what W/Mo's with <12 weapon attribute and 16 tactics do. I'll stick to my 12 attributes in my weapon thank you.

BTW, Watch Yourself is probably way more useful than bonetti's /dolyak sig considering that the whole party is buffed, which means there is less incentive for mobs not to bash on you, the warrior. It is evident when the Jade Brotherhood use it, that's for sure.

With Factions, the mobs do not hold aggro well. If they see you doing a load of damage on them (or have low armor), however, they will attack you. So therefore we can assume that warrior's should do damage.

[Stormlord Alex]

Heh, I don't play tank either... in PvE, I find I can do some sweet damage as a Warrior even against high-levelled mobs (In FoW, I can easily do 100+ damage to a shadow with a hammer and Power Attack).

I simply take Watch Yourself! (for the party) and Dolyak Signet (if they decide to attack me...), sometimes Shield's Up!, with Healing Signet. I find can stay alive a helluva lot longer than all these W/Mo 'tanks', even without a shield and mending. :)

[Raxxman]

Watch yourself is so good I fear it'll get nerfed

[Aisius]

The only reason I stay W/Mo is for the fixed rez.

If I can take on the enemy with no one else in my group inside my aggro bubble tanking works perfectly in pve. Experience's of this are the festival (just been) special mission and even Gayla's Hatchery (alternative route).

For the most part the typical PuG pve team won't stay out of my aggro circle on the onset of aggroing mobs so tanking never works in this case. A little bit of Death penalty can help however.

Watch yourself is an ok skill but still from a damage point of view thats 4 adren not damaging the mob and dolyak can increase your armour to +40, typically running around at +32-38. I only take Dolyak now if I'm soloing or I know the group will give me a head start on mobs.

Alot of the best practices of a tank/warrior/barbarian imo are target selection. Kill that ritualist then monk then ele or take out the ele then ritualist monk. All depends on the situation and judging what the group can withstand. This is what makes or breaks this profession played well imo.

[chumsy]

Anyone try Urgoz's Warren?

Wars have to be tanks there - but with "shields up", distracting blow, ViM, and maybe some kind of AoE like belly smash, they'd still have plenty to do than just stand there.

p.s. about the collector shield, I've gone and swapped one of it, so thanks to those that helped.
@ Shuuda - that insult was totally uncalled for.

[Witte Was]

Barbarian=Able to hold aggro, stay alive and do very nice dmg. And thats what a true warrior should do

[Winstar]

If by tanking in Urgoz's Warren you mean loading up with defensive skills so that you basically just stand there and take damage, well, no thats not needed. You can tank effectively with a minimal selection of defensive skills while still producing a high damage output. Tanking does require defensive overkill.

[Age]

I don't play a tank when i play Warrior only that Warrior and I don't use endure pain or defy as I once did and I hate it when it wears out i use watchyourself as well when pressing my healing sig. I only use the doylak when solo farming.I have both sword and axe.I do have a W/Mo as well and my 2nd being a W/R not Iway.

[chumsy]

Somehow I feel like I'm the only one who's ever considered standing back and using "shields up" to benefit the casters with blocking vs savage shot and +50 def vs arrows and dagger attacks when meleeing would only draw aggro from more than 1 group.

[Valkyries]

Honestly Im really quite surprised by the comments.

First off, tanking IS needed but only in certain places. Do you need a Warrior Tank in Sanctum Cay? Of course not. But go to FoW or UW or any high end place/elite missions and a tank is really going to make life a ton easier. Maybe it isn't required but it is a HUGE benefit.

Now that being said, explain to me again why a tank cannot deal damage? Also if you are having problems with enemies running all over the place, maybe you should learn how to keep agro. Thats basically what a tank is all about.

I don't load up on defensive skills but I admit I do carry at least half my bar with them. There is no reason not to use offensive skills as well. Its called a complete warrior.

I run an Axe usually and put in a few things like Triple Chop, Cyclone Axe and Exec strike... then use things like Shields up, Dylroks Signet, a good stance and a res... I have no problems tanking at all, I can keep the agro away from the other members of the party and I can still dish out a pile of damage. Its all about balance IMO.

I totally understand why people want tanks on their team but the minute I get someone saying "you MUST take X skill" Ill just leave. I have no problems in tanking but Im going to dish out a ton of damage as well. Its good to be a meat shield especially if you have a sensible Monk who can do anything.

In PVP its obviously very different so Im not really going to get into that.... but I really think it has its uses, just maybe not the way everyone thinks about it.

Just my 2 cents.
:D

[Fox Reeveheart]

bah o.o some of us just want to be pure damage dealers, this is why monks were made >.>

infact... I need to make a "warriors don't need tactics" thread :\ I love just having a weapon and strength

[LordLucifer]

pure tanks are a waste4 in a team, there isnt a "taunt" skill for any1 to play like that, warriors arent tanks, warriors are warriors, they go in battle before the others to take the alpha hit, and then start doing their thingie..warriors are damage dealers in pvp only ppl...

in pve even an elemental monstaer has 100-120 armor plus they are 4-8 lvls above us

try reading the inherent bonus on the attribute strenght, armor isnt a big problem for warriors as it is to nuker for example (any1 tried using dolyak+earth armor and dance under a met shower?)

if any1 is looking for a tank go play city of heroes, they do have a class called that and then you will see what i tanker really is (a puchbag doh)

PS: before i get any flamming... "warriors are warriors, they go in battle before the others to take the alpha hit"

Edit: oh yah almost forgot, about dmg, axe spikes can deal more dmg than MANY assasin combos.... but we have to wait for adren to charge..thats why we have our high armor, or would you want to build up adren with assasins armor? lol

[jummeth]

Kill stuff, dead things don't do damage. Finished.

[shalako]

[QUOTE=Valkyries]Honestly Im really quite surprised by the comments.
I don't load up on defensive skills but I admit I do carry at least half my bar with them.


Lol......sorry that is loading up..If half of your skills are defensive and a res..you don't have any ability to build adrenaline and do real damage....

Unless you are sup runed...then you are defeating the purpose of having a warrior... which is enough hp + armor to OUTLAST your opponent....

the bottom line is killing your foe before he is able to kill you and your party...


Tanking has it's place...That's in a few select places....FOW is a good example but for the most part I want my warrior to put a pounding on em before they can kill my monk......

[Aisius]

Some defensive damage skills come to mind-
Gladiators defense
Reposte
Deadly Reposte

Just realized I was repeating what another thread contributer said :

tanking and damage dealing can easily go together when vs other melee. Riposte, deadly riposte, gladiators defense, nice spam of final thrust, with bonnettis defense for energy. Or just look at my variant of fow spider killin, super spam of cleave even with flurry up and occasional executioners strike drops them really fast. And with watch yourself and dolyak signet you almost take no damage. Bring a dmg reduction sheild and have axe set for damage dealing and you do tanking and dmg easy.

But of course we dont have to ONLY tank. Do both and youre a REAL tank, cannon and all.
heh;)

[shalako]

riposte and deadly riposte are fine if you want to run a sword warrior...

but if you are running hammer or axe they are not valid...and i wouldn't want to waste my elite on glads defense using an axe when i could use triple chop, eviscerate, or cleave for that matter..

but still you have a point for the sword warrior riposte and deadly are often used and all in all good skills...

[Phoenix Sebolta]

I need to make a "warriors don't need tactics" thread :\ I love just having a weapon and strength

MY FEELINGS EXACTLY. I play PvE a lot, and what good is a tank when youre on your own?!?! You have to be able to deal a lot of damage, and tactics wont deal damage (unless its with riposte, which is only effective against warrior enemies). I cary 16 swordsmanship, 12 Strength and 8 healing prayers. hundred Blades gives me adrenaline which gives me the sword skills to attack, dolyak sig with high strength keeps me from dying and healing prayers heal. I use vigorous spirit and breeze. Healing signet is inneffective unless you have 16 tactics. I do have when im farming Trolls, because tactics does everything, but with 8 tactics you get 100 hp. Most of that will be lost while casting because of the -40 armor. To be a solo damage dealing warrior, 16 weapon/12 strength is the way to go i feel.

[Rera]

Tanking doesn't happen in PUGs, unless you're talking about the idiot caster who runs ahead of everyone else and aggros every ****ing mob within radar range and 'tanks' them for about half a second before screaming for res.

You don't need 16 tactics and a full bar of stances to be a tank. Warriors are *natural* tanks, even without bringing any skills designed specifically for tanking. You generally have 80AL base, +20AL vs. physical, and probably a shield (I'm going to exclude hammer warriors for the sake of simplicity). You also tend to have more health, from the +health mods on weapon and shield. There is usually no reason for the warrior to not try and soak damage, regardless of whether you brought any 'tanking' skills.

Trying to not be a tank, just to go against the stereotype, is stupid and irresponsible, and is likely to result in party wipe if the area is sufficiently difficult or your teammates sufficiently inexperienced/incompetent. The warrior should always be the first one in and the last one out. Leave caster ganking to the assassins and rangers. If you're good, you should be able to group enemy aggro around their casters anyway, allowing you to both tank and kill casters at the same time.

If your team doesn't know to let warriors hold aggro, teach them. If they don't listen or talk back, just ragequit, because chances are good that you're not going to get anywhere with them anyway.

Aside from the standard farming build, I've never played a PvE warrior that didn't have 16 in weapon mastery and at least 9~10 in str. I still run ahead of the group to draw aggro, bodyblock, and otherwise keep my backline alive, without a single defensive stance in my bar. I can take Watch Yourself! if I have space, and Dolyak Sig if I don't have confidence in my monk's ability to keep me alive (either because the monk is bad, or because the area has too much damage). Being able to deal damage doesn't stop you from tanking, so please do your job as a warrior.

[Ryn]

A tank can be usefull in some situations (farming), IF the tank and more important the party knows how too use it.

But i prefer to play PVE with a dmg dealing warrior.

[Valkyries]

Tanking doesn't happen in PUGs, unless you're talking about the idiot caster who runs ahead of everyone else and aggros every ****ing mob within radar range and 'tanks' them for about half a second before screaming for res.

You don't need 16 tactics and a full bar of stances to be a tank. Warriors are *natural* tanks, even without bringing any skills designed specifically for tanking. You generally have 80AL base, +20AL vs. physical, and probably a shield (I'm going to exclude hammer warriors for the sake of simplicity). You also tend to have more health, from the +health mods on weapon and shield. There is usually no reason for the warrior to not try and soak damage, regardless of whether you brought any 'tanking' skills.

Trying to not be a tank, just to go against the stereotype, is stupid and irresponsible, and is likely to result in party wipe if the area is sufficiently difficult or your teammates sufficiently inexperienced/incompetent. The warrior should always be the first one in and the last one out. Leave caster ganking to the assassins and rangers. If you're good, you should be able to group enemy aggro around their casters anyway, allowing you to both tank and kill casters at the same time.

If your team doesn't know to let warriors hold aggro, teach them. If they don't listen or talk back, just ragequit, because chances are good that you're not going to get anywhere with them anyway.

Aside from the standard farming build, I've never played a PvE warrior that didn't have 16 in weapon mastery and at least 9~10 in str. I still run ahead of the group to draw aggro, bodyblock, and otherwise keep my backline alive, without a single defensive stance in my bar. I can take Watch Yourself! if I have space, and Dolyak Sig if I don't have confidence in my monk's ability to keep me alive (either because the monk is bad, or because the area has too much damage). Being able to deal damage doesn't stop you from tanking, so please do your job as a warrior.

VERY well said....

Also, Ill mention I ALWAYS run 15 or 16 in my WM and I can deal out plenty of damage. I still take defensive skills too because its just useful. If you are all offense or want to just be offense go roll an Assassin. Thats why they have the name "glass cannon"... because it dishes out lots of dmg but cannot tank at all.

[Aisius]

As for hammer I have "tanked" Mobs using-

1Iresistable blow
2Crushing blow
3Yeti smash
4To the limit
5Glads defense
6Dolyak Sig
7heal sig
8Res

Sentinels armour, 14 str, 15 hammer, 8 tactics.

[!!!nexus!!!]

if a warrior is in a group and they are not tanking they usually are hurting the group and I couldn't imagine you helping them (Since another barrager or nuker or even a mesmer would do a lot more damage)

[Elaine Donnerbalken]

nexus, when it comes to damagedealing, you shouldn't mix up tanks and offensive played warriors. It has a reason that some of the better pvp guilds beat the game with warrior (not "tanks") heavy groups as some of the first ones.

[jummeth]

if a warrior is in a group and they are not tanking they usually are hurting the group and I couldn't imagine you helping them (Since another barrager or nuker or even a mesmer would do a lot more damage)
Its mis-information like this that we have to get rid of ASAP.

Warriors have probably the highest base damage rate of any profession.
Warriors (cleanly spiked) probably has the highest damaging spike (solo).

This is balanced by the fact that they have to do all this damage in melee.


Tanks use up just as much of the monk's energy but they don't put the enemy down so that they stop attacking.

[CagedinSanity]

Trying to not be a tank, just to go against the stereotype, is stupid and irresponsible, and is likely to result in party wipe if the area is sufficiently difficult or your teammates sufficiently inexperienced/incompetent.

That's about my thoughts. Trying not to be a tank with a primary warrior is just dumb. The thing is, as a 1st warrior, you really do't have a choice with strength and armor.

[Valkyries]

Its mis-information like this that we have to get rid of ASAP.


Wow...

Worst thing is you are serious! :eek:

[Sol Deathgard]

Ne way since warriors have the highest al in the game the monsters will always go for softer targets like ele and monks and everytime a ele or monk or whatever gets hit they blame it on the warrior for "not keeping them focused on you" well if people would not have this "I have to be right on the wars @$$" mentality aggro wouldn't break, the way pve AI works would be like this; (2 examples)

1. monster sees war "there's a Warrior let's kill it!" runs to attack, runs by, everyone else is back. Monsters "no one else here, kill the war!"

2. Monster sees War "There's a Warrior let's kill it!" runs to attack, runs by, everyone is right behind the war, "Hey!!! there's are some more people here, let's kill them instead!!" runs to kill everything else and leaves warrior alone.

[jummeth]

Wow...

Worst thing is you are serious! :eek: Just try a warrior that can damage things. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Elaine Donnerbalken]

In fact ,if more people wouls realize that you can use warriors for damagedealing, there wouldn't be the need of "nukers" and "tanks".

The AoE dps of warriors may be smaller, but in exchange its more reliable (no downtime for ereg).

If people would take 2 damage warriors instead of 1 tank (0 damage) and a nuker, they'd probably be far more effective.

[Amity and Truth]

As i've allready said in the other thread about tanking. Tanking in PUGs (!) is downright impossible and you're hurting your team more than you help if you're only bringing defensive stuff.
There are too many errors a group can do, that screw the whole concept of tanking in a whole. The only thing i don't understand is why so many people KNOW about Aggro (they're using it in their every day farmbuilds -> UW, ToPK, SF etc etc) but as soon as they're no longer in a farming team, they run around like chickens, screwing aggro in a whole. Like some kind of switch activated and erased every memory of why exactly the farming team was successful in the first place.

/edit:
Sorry for my grammar today, feeling a bit dizzy.

[Thom Bangalter]

In fact ,if more people wouls realize that you can use warriors for damagedealing, there wouldn't be the need of "nukers" and "tanks".

The AoE dps of warriors may be smaller, but in exchange its more reliable (no downtime for ereg).

If people would take 2 damage warriors instead of 1 tank (0 damage) and a nuker, they'd probably be far more effective.

That's why I just play a traditional eviscerate axe warrior. Screw Tanking, I say.

[Valkyries]

Just try a warrior that can damage things. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

Ummm actually I do/have played Damage Warriors.

What you fail to understand is you can have good damage AND good Survivability.

There is no reason why you can't do both. In Fact, you can simply run 2-3 good Defensive skills (stance, Dylok's Signet, etc) and run 3 good damage dealing skills (Triple chop, Cyclone axe, etc just for examples) and still tank and deal dmg just fine.

Why must you run 6 dmg skills, 1 heal and 1 res? Sorry but you are hurting more than you are helping. If you want to run it that way try PVP. No use for Tanks there at all

[Elaine Donnerbalken]

nobody should take 6 damage skills. too many adrenalin skills will destroy the high adrenaline skills, so we talk about 2-3 adrenaline attacks.

A bigger conflict between the wish to tank or to deal damage is the stance.

An IAS like Tiger's Fury or even Tiger Stance means 50% more damage in the same time. You don't want to use a defensive stance.

So most of the time what remains for an offensive warrior to tank is dolyak signet and watch yourself, endure pain (or what it's called, the non-elite), and maybe a tank stance for emergencies, as you don't want to use your elite for tanking.

So we have

1. attack skill
2. attack skill
3. attack skill
4. IAS
5. defensive 1
6. self heal / defensive 2 / utility
7. self heal / defensive 3 / utility
8. Rez


But it seems that a lot of the confusion seems to be a consequence of people using the words "tank" and "tanking" witrh different meanings.

[Valkyries]

nobody should take 6 damage skills. too many adrenalin skills will destroy the high adrenaline skills, so we talk about 2-3 adrenaline attacks.

A bigger conflict between the wish to tank or to deal damage is the stance.

An IAS like Tiger's Fury or even Tiger Stance means 50% more damage in the same time. You don't want to use a defensive stance.

So most of the time what remains for an offensive warrior to tank is dolyak signet and watch yourself, endure pain (or what it's called, the non-elite), and maybe a tank stance for emergencies, as you don't want to use your elite for tanking.

So we have

1. attack skill
2. attack skill
3. attack skill
4. IAS
5. defensive 1
6. self heal / defensive 2 / utility
7. self heal / defensive 3 / utility
8. Rez


But it seems that a lot of the confusion seems to be a consequence of people using the words "tank" and "tanking" witrh different meanings.

I have to agree with you, because that is pretty close to what I use for my Warrio. The only difference is I will probably use a Defensive Stance instead of an IAS but that really depends on the mission/what Im going.

I really think people are getting confused with the meanings, as you said...

[Skuld]

Warrior armour plus shield does just fine for me normally, but in tougher places I take dolyak signet. There, 6 optional slots 16/10/10 WM/STR/TCT :)

[Skuld]

As for hammer I have "tanked" Mobs using-

1Iresistable blow
2Crushing blow
3Yeti smash
4To the limit
5Glads defense
6Dolyak Sig
7heal sig
8Res

Sentinels armour, 14 str, 15 hammer, 8 tactics.

Uh but you have Glad's Defence as your elite, whats your point?..

[Grammar]

Hate me for saying this but I think ANet nerfed the wrong aspect of warriors (let me explain).


Two quick facts about warriors:
1. They tank better than any class in the game
2. They deal more damage than any class in the game

Now I'm not a math major, but in this case, 1+1=overpowered.
So what do you do with an overpowered class? You nerf it.
And rightfully so.

Problem is, Anet nerfed the wrong side of the equation. They nerfed the tanking side, and left the damage side alone.
If you ask me, what makes the warrior overpowered isn't their tanking ability, because that's what they're designed to do in the first place. The problem is on the damage side. Warriors shouldn't be outdamaging elementalists and such, but they do (easily, actually).
ANet needed to nerf warrior damage and leave damage aborption alone.

[Elaine Donnerbalken]

It's not the warrior damage that needs nerfing, but the elem damage which needs buffing. Take away warrior damage and nothing will die.

[Katari]

Hate me for saying this but I think ANet nerfed the wrong aspect of warriors (let me explain).


Two quick facts about warriors:
1. They tank better than any class in the game
2. They deal more damage than any class in the game

Now I'm not a math major, but in this case, 1+1=overpowered.
So what do you do with an overpowered class? You nerf it.
And rightfully so.

Problem is, Anet nerfed the wrong side of the equation. They nerfed the tanking side, and left the damage side alone.
If you ask me, what makes the warrior overpowered isn't their tanking ability, because that's what they're designed to do in the first place. The problem is on the damage side. Warriors shouldn't be outdamaging elementalists and such, but they do (easily, actually).
ANet needed to nerf warrior damage and leave damage aborption alone.
Sure, you could nerf warrior damage to the level of elementalist damage. But then what would you have? As it is, outside of spiking, eles don't have enough damage to be a serious threat in PvP. Warriors (and forms other melee damage) are used in pressure builds because nothing else can apply the same sort of pressure. If you remove the warrior's ability to apply that pressure, then PvP becomes a spike-fest. I don't think we want that.

[Niosisw]

Why not just tank and deal damage? Stop complaining, you have a role to fulfill.

Just use Defy pain and endure pain combo, that's really all you need.

Rest of your skills can be damage.


If you want to deal uber damage as a warrior, go into PvP. It's more satisfying there anyways.

Hate me for saying this but I think ANet nerfed the wrong aspect of warriors (let me explain).


Two quick facts about warriors:
1. They tank better than any class in the game
2. They deal more damage than any class in the game



They deal more damage? Ok, just because you read some article that said "Warrior + frenzy on a soft target = more dmg" doesn't mean anything.

Warrior damage is INSANELY conditional. Why do I say this?

1. You can run.
2. Blind.
3. Multiple hexes that reduce attack time and add dmg.
4. Cripple.
5. Enchantments to dodge melee attacks (I.E.-Guardian)
6. Skills to dodge melee attacks.

Every class has AT LEAST 2 counters to warriors, one of which being kiting. To say warriors deal the most damage is a very naive train of thought.

[Grammar]

^^^ But they do do the most damage.
This has been proven about 9636138135462 times now, it's nothing new.

And the counter argument can be used for any class in the game. I would argue that every class is equally easy to counter if your prep your build for it. That's the beauty of GW PvP: there is no self-sufficiency; teamwork is an absolute must.

The above poster who brought up the pressure vs. spike issue does raise a good point, however. Nerfing warrior damage to fix PvE might throw off the balance in PvP. But I'm not convinced that buffing Ele's is the proper alternative as some suggest.
Either way, I'm definitely not a fan of the damage reduction nerf. It is what it is and I'm dealing with it, but I'm still not a fan. And I will continue to belive that warriors do too much damage (like I said in my first post, feel free to disagree/hate me for it :p ).

[jummeth]

Niosisw: The fact that you use Defy Pain means that you simply deal less damage to anybody using a weapon elite. Its not that hard to grasp.

The less damage done means more time in the line of fire, and generally means more for the monk to heal.

[Shadowfox1125]

If you really need to have both Defy Pain and Endure Pain on your skillbar at all times, I'd really reconsider your role as a warrior.. Having both should never be necessary and in my GW career I've never needed to have both of them at the same time. If you really want to "tank," there are numerous viable skills that are not elite that will allow you to tank all you want. IMHO, Defy Pain in PvE is just unnecessary. As jummeth has already stated, the only thing 'tanks' really do is prolong the battle so that your other characters can kill the creatures and it also forces your monks to keep healing you. If you went in with a damage dealing warrior, you could shorten the duration of the battle, allowing the monk to rest more. I feel that as a tank, you aren't doing much that helps the team. And it HAS been proven that warriors do deal the most damage. Think about it--they're warriors; they run into the heart of the battle, sacrificing their lives--it's only fair that they do the most damage. Sins will attack and then flee because that's what assassins do, kill and run.

[Xaero Gouki Kriegor]

same goes with elementist...

everybody assume they're the "nuker", while elementist can be a better tank than warriors.

The 5 ward spells: Melee, Foe, Harm, Stability, Element
Obsidian Flesh
Mirror of Ice
Mist Form
Armor of Earth
Kinetic Armor

oh yea...earth elementist = 60 + 50 + 70 + 20 = 200 AL!!!
then you can use ward against foe to trap enemy and ward against melee to help ally
Kinetic Armor can be refreshed with Inspiried Hex on ally with no hex on them

aren't these both elites? do you combine them on the same build?

and also couldn't mist form be easily removed, just like mending or something?
and all those armor spell enchantments be removed? while a warrior can keep all his al using just his skills?

as for obsidian flesh to be removed:

Chilblains
Order of Apostasy
Disenchantment
Well of the Profane
Dark Apostasy
Expunge Enchantments

relying on enchantments to live and tank doesnt go so easy, might as well bea 55 monk with spellbreaker if your gonna tank for a party with enchantments, as for being warrior, he can maintain his al without any removal of enchantments or etc

[Sir fredman]

well in the worlds history warrior usually go first becuase they are melee people and have (maybe) more damage than some other proffesion.. this is my opinion

[Guitary Boy]

I dont understand why warriors should be tanks, sure ele's can get 200+ al but then "drumroll" obsidain flesh! An ele can sit there and take more phisical damage than any warrior hands down + then can have all the spells fail, couple it up with serpents quickness and you have a never ending tank that outdoes any warrior, and maybe even through in a damage spell. Take this into consideration, would you have a warrior sitting there evading most phisical attacks, and maybe taking 20+ damage every few seconds from large mobs and get hexed constantly and battered by spells (depending on mobs) or have an elementalist taking 0-3 damage (depending on mobs) and be invuneralble to all spells, and maybe with aura of restoration the ele would require no self heal? just a thought.

Warriors were designed to be upfront bashing away at things, thats why people create warriors because they like the idea of it. Thats what warriors do, bash, hit and what ever, they are warriors. Sure they are good at tanking, but think about what they are compared to elementalists, people need to broaden up a bit, think of alternatives.

Somehow i think i just killed of warriors in farming. Take no notice of the ele thing :D

Edit: For the guy saying enchants being removed, all those skills are extreamly rare for mobs, let alone comonly farmed mobs, chillibans is more common but is is a target spell, thus it will fail and wont remove the enchantment, if it is targeted on a ally near you, what is that ally near you for?

[Xaero Gouki Kriegor]

yea but might as well have a 55 or 605 monk with spellbreaker, if you want a squishy up front with enchantments catching most agro and attention, but will they do much damage?, thats my opinion, I love the warrior profession, I can "tank" if i want to, and deal damage if I want to, warriors are an amazing versatile profession, name one place a profession has soloed, and i bet 10 bucks a warrior has went through and done it as well, they deal great damage,

and they are like the shield of a party, but a very rough shield that might hurt a bit if you touch them :P,

but i gotta agree with freedman's comment for the most part

[Rera]

Edit: For the guy saying enchants being removed, all those skills are extreamly rare for mobs, let alone comonly farmed mobs, chillibans is more common but is is a target spell, thus it will fail and wont remove the enchantment, if it is targeted on a ally near you, what is that ally near you for?

Chilblains is dangerous exactly because it does *not* require a target. It is an aoe enchantment removal centered around the caster, and therefore *will* take down anti-spell buffs like Obsidian Flesh, Spellbreaker, Shadow Form, etc.

Furthermore, your entire post is missing the point. The question here is not "Who would make the best tank?" but "What should warriors be doing?" The problem we are addressing is that many warrior players overload on healing and defensive skills, making them deadweight in parties. The fact that elementalists could potentially have higher armor is not related to that point at all.

[Xaero Gouki Kriegor]

well really, i think this whole thread could be dismissed , they are already "tanking" while doing what they normaly do, unless some jackarse is in the back as a w/r shooting a bow, there really is no further discussion on what they should be doing, they tank without even trying if they just do their job and bash the enemy up front and personal

[RotteN]

bodyblock foes and bash away at them, if some idiot caster gets the aggro, try to bodyblock that foe again, and keep bashing. You will take less damage than anyone else without wasting skillslots on it. I never play "tank", and i never will, bodyblocking melee foes in pve, sure, bringing dolyak+endure+defy+watch yourself+shield stance, never.

[Guitary Boy]

Chilblains is dangerous exactly because it does *not* require a target. It is an aoe enchantment removal centered around the caster, and therefore *will* take down anti-spell buffs like Obsidian Flesh, Spellbreaker, Shadow Form, etc.

Furthermore, your entire post is missing the point. The question here is not "Who would make the best tank?" but "What should warriors be doing?" The problem we are addressing is that many warrior players overload on healing and defensive skills, making them deadweight in parties. The fact that elementalists could potentially have higher armor is not related to that point at all.

Granted, sorry about chilblains, my bad.
But read my post again, i did actually mention what i think warriors should be doing. Hence my second paragraph ;
"Warriors were designed to be upfront bashing away at things, thats why people create warriors because they like the idea of it. Thats what warriors do, bash, hit and what ever, they are warriors. Sure they are good at tanking, but think about what they are compared to elementalists, people need to broaden up a bit, think of alternatives."

[Inari]

Well, warriors will always do the most dmg here, because, well, this is not diablo2 (someone mentioned that at the start). Meaning the casters or ranged attackers dont even act at the same speed as a warrior. Imho, the only dmg dealer in this game that actually lives up to its name in this case, is the warrior.

Now, if this was diablo 2, that would be a whole diffrent stroy. If Anet would buff up attack speed of rangers and casting time of casters, we would start to really have all around fun here.

[Pick Me]

Well, warriors will always do the most dmg here, because, well, this is not diablo2 (someone mentioned that at the start). Meaning the casters or ranged attackers dont even act at the same speed as a warrior. Imho, the only dmg dealer in this game that actually lives up to its name in this case, is the warrior.

Now, if this was diablo 2, that would be a whole diffrent stroy. If Anet would buff up attack speed of rangers and casting time of casters, we would start to really have all around fun here.

Yes, because damage is left to the Paladin and the Assassin right? Or perhaps the Barbarian's pure holy damage would be enough to slap Diablo and Baal down (but leaving him vulnerable to everything, even a cool brisk breeze).

Fire Sorceresses do sweet damage, but if Diablo II had the same AoE AI that GW has, then you would see cries from them too. :D

Although, it would be interesting if we can obtain the power level of monsters. I would like to do 214 fire damage with Mind Burn. :(

Or have a skill that allows me to do 600 damage to a single monster like the Djinn has. :D

[Inari]

My only point was that as it stands now, Eles, for example are too slow to dish out damage. And so are rangers. The problem starts and ends with skills like Barrage I think...

One on one, its preety easy to kill an ele (again, only example) with a warrior in gw. In D2, the same thing hardly ever happened (put Enigma out of this).

All I say is, that you worry too much about everything but dishing out dmg as a caster, while the warrior does not.