Alpha Roundtable #1
Originally Published by Sausaletus Rex
Sausaletus Rex
Welcome to the Guild Wars Guru's Alpha Roundtable everyone. Let’s dispense with the pleasantries and hymns of praise to ourselves and get right to the matter at hand.
I’m sure we’ve all heard by now that people are saying that Rangers are poor, that Rangers were overly nerfed, that Rangers need help. Well, let’s take that build by Weezer Blue I showed you and put it to good use. I think if we tweak this already fine build until it really shines we can dispell some of those very mistaken notions.
So, let's start off with the obvious thing : There's no such thing as runes for your secondary professions so that Rune of Minor Air Magic is right out. That leaves us a base build of 11/10/10 which turns into Expertise 12, Marksmanship 13, and Air Magic 10 with our runes. How does that distribution of Attribute Points grab everyone?
Pharalon
I'd be tempted to swap Expertise and Marksmanship.
Deadroot
at first glance, I wasn't too excited with Expertise.
Freyas
It looks pretty good to me- Expertise should be high enough to keep energy costs manageable, and Marksmanship is pretty nice at 13.
Narcism
Hmmm... 13 Expertise does give a cut to 5, 15 and 25 energy skills by one energy from 12 Expertise.
Sausaletus Rex
Personally, I agree with Pharalon, Marksmanship really starts to trail off past 12, so I'd flip the two around. Or just not bother with a Major Rune there.
Narcism
I can agree with you on the first point.
Freyas
I'd probably change the major rune to a minor- I'm not sure that the extra +1 marksmanship is worth a 50 hp drop in your health.
Sausaletus Rex
At this point the gold standard is pretty much Expertise 12 / Marksmanship 12. That's what you really need to get the most damage at the lowest cost.
Narcism
But I'd definitely switch the attributes between the two, by subbing out the Major Marksmanship, and throwing on a Major Expertise
errr * correct* i would sub out the major mark for a major Expertise.
Sausaletus Rex
Well, it is a Ranger with that good Ranger armor. He won't be the target of most of the enemy's efforts so I don't mind having a health hit for some bonus AP. The question is whether or not it's worth it and I’m not sure if that's the case here.
Pharalon
13 Expertise gives you 2 energy barrage.
Narcism
Exactly Pharalon.
Sausaletus Rex
I think we just found a winning argument for a major rune...
Pharalon
that's something that you want to be spamming as much as possible to get the most out of the build.
Narcism
13 Expertise does 5 Energy from 3->2 Energy as well as 15 8-> 7 and 25 -> 13->12.
Sausaletus Rex
Right, it's a sweet spot on the curve. Push it to 14 and you drop the 10 skills which doesn't happen at 13, but everything else falls a notch. I'd say it's a pretty good target. So, let's say it's a Expertise 13 (11+2) Marksmanship 12 (10+2) Air Magic 10 build. Let's talk about equipment, something Weezer's neglected, I think. What kind of armor and bow are going to be called for here?
Narcism
This is an ANTI-Warrior build?
Sausaletus Rex
On the face of it, I think. Personally, I'm not to sold on the anti-warrior focus of it, myself. I really see this build spamming Conjured Barrage so I'd want as fast an attack speed as possible.
Freyas
I would recommend a bow with a fast attack speed- preferably a short bow or half moon.
Sausaletus Rex
I don't really mind the shorter range, I can agree with you Freyas.
Narcism
I'm a fan of Attack Speed myself, but if we stay on the Anti-Warrior aspect, I'd suggest sacrificing speed for longer range to kite the Warrior.
Freyas
Having longer range will only matter for the first few shots when facing off against a Warrior- once they start closing in, you'll be using Pin Down and shooting whenever get enough of a lead.
Barrage can be powerful, but your enemies are likely to spread fairly quickly when they see you using it, especially with Conjure Lightning.
Sausaletus Rex
Anyhow, I don't mind Barrage too much. It's a bit hard to pull off but that just means you're picking your targets a bit more.
Narcism
I think before we get into skills and all those things, we should find the purpose of the build, what is he going to do with it?
Sausaletus Rex
Good point, Narc.
Freyas
I do like Barrage- it should get a nice amount of damage, even if the enemy starts to scatter.
Sausaletus Rex
And at 2 energy, you can afford to spam it.
But first, let's address Narc's point. What does everyone see this build doing? What's the concept, what's the point?
Freyas
I would say it's set up for a primary damage-dealing character- some AoE in Barrage, and straight damage through Power Shot and Hunter’s Shot. It is spread out somewhat with damage, interrupts, and conditions, though.
Pharalon
All aimed at warriors though.
Sausaletus Rex
Damage dealing? With a Ranger? Psshaw. Rangers are awful at dealing damage, aren't they?
Pharalon
I heard they have the worst DPS of any class....
Narcism
You can build a Ranger which can DPS as well as a Warrior... believe it or not.
Freyas
They actually have nice DPS- they do poorly using normal attacks, but with Expertise, they can spam skills to greatly improve their damage.
Sausaletus Rex
Sigh, I guess we don't have any Ranger lovers here. I was hoping to set some heads on fire...
Freyas
Whereas a warrior has to take many normal attacks to build up adrenaline to use their hard-hitting skills, a Ranger can immediately start spamming their nice attacks.
Sausaletus Rex
But yes, Rangers can be excellent at dealing damage. They do it from range and at extremely low cost. The key is to use Expertise to fuel your attack skills and to stack damage on top of your bow. That's a lesson Weezer knows as he's using it in his build. He's got Favorable Winds to buff any attack and lots of cheap spammable attacks.
Deadroot
I'm just not that wild about Rangers at this point. Even in PvP they are usually not the focus of my chars right away.
Narcism
I mean, I'd be silly to say they weren't a jack-of-all-trades... but can they be really good at a trade.. ?
Freyas
I've ran into some extremely potent builds with rangers for damage dealers. I've found that a Ranger can be superior to a Warrior for dealing damage.
Sausaletus Rex
Well, Deadroot, Rangers aren't going to be the focus, no, not when there are healers and characters that can maul healers walking around. And not when Rangers have excellent defenses.
They're not high priority because they're hardened targets when there are better characters to plunk first. That doesn't mean they're awful, just that when you want to kill something you don't necessarily want to kill a Ranger.
Freyas
One of the main advantages that Rangers have is that many of the skills that can shut down warriors are ineffective against Rangers.
Sausaletus Rex
Narc, I think Rangers do have a lot of roles, but every profession does when you get right down to it.
Narcism
I mean, high-armor, damage-dealers are probably the last targets on anyone's list.
Freyas
Rangers aren't a high-priority target, but then again, Warriors generally are left for last as well, since both classes are difficult to kill.
Narcism
So that's why Rangers aren't targetted as much, which allows them to get away for a bit. Which makes it convenient for trappers.
Sausaletus Rex
The main problem now is that they require both high Marksmanship and Expertise to be effective as Rangers. Meaning that Survival and Beastmastery are second-class lines by design. But they can fill several rolls excellently.
Narcism
You are a character using a bow.
Freyas
Both of those lines have niches, but aren't nearly as effective as Marksmanship Rangers.
Deadroot
okay, then if they aren't a high priority, having to kite with this char shouldn't be high on the consideration list when thinking about bow and skills if you plan to use this as an Anti-Warrior build.
Sausaletus Rex
They can deny energy as well or better than a Mesmer with Debiliating Shot, they can dish damage like a Warrior or an Elementalist, they can tank with their stances and armor, there's a lot you can do.
Narcism
Agreed, throw on Greater Conflaguration, and guess who has the best armor in the game?
Deadroot, I agree if it was GvG... but Gladiator's Arena (or 1v1 if it's ever implemented) will definitely involve kitting.
Sausaletus Rex
Kiting's never a bad thing to have. Not even against Warriors. A snare against a character that's probably going to be using their own snare or speed buff is a plus.
Deadroot
yes, but the Arena isn't as important to people as GvG since there is no ladder.
Sausaletus Rex
Not only are you helping yourself, you're also making them a better target for everyone else on your team.
Freyas
Having a snare is nice, even if you aren't the focus of attacks.
Deadroot
oh yeah, I think so, too.
Freyas
You can slow down a healer trying to run away from your warriors, or slow down a warrior who's trying to chase your healers, if nothing else.
Sausaletus Rex
Okay, good. Well, let's get a bit more back to the build here.
Personally, I'm not sold on the whole anti-Warrior focus here. I'd see this build as using a lot of spammable attacks with boosted damage and an emphasis on AoE damage with Barrage. With that in mind, I'd tweak a few of the skills Weezer's chosen. Firstly, Debilitating Shot is insanely good now. There's just no reason no to use it, even if you're hunting Warriors.
Freyas
I don't really like focusing warriors- you are not going to have much luck killing a Warrior until their healers are taken out of the battle and there's little on this build other than some plain damage to help kill the healers..
Sausaletus Rex
Right, Warriors aren't the priority anyway. You want to take out their Monks or their Mesmers. Their softer caster targets. You can focus fire Warriors to death with snares and increased damage and you can use those same tools to kill casters just as well, so focus on being a threat to what really matters and leave the Warriors alone until you need to drop them.
Freyas
I agree with Debilitating Shot- it can be useful against any character- casters or warriors.
Narcism
Let's not forget it's 5 second recharge and 5 energy cost.
Sausaletus Rex
Right, it's just got to be on here. It's 5 energy with 13 Expertise. That's just a huge energy swing and it's spammable.
Freyas
5 energy to drain 10 from your enemy is rather nice.
Sausaletus Rex
5 second recharge means it's comfortably within regeneration, as well. Anyhow, since I see this more as a build for AoE, I'd drop Power Shot for Dual Shot. You get the added benefit of getting your Conjure bonus twice as well as nailing anyone stupid enough to hang around after a Barrage.
Narcism
Statistically, Dual shot would do more damage. With 1 second less recharge, as well as the same energy cost.
Sausaletus Rex
If you really wanted to drop Warriors, use Penetrating Shot, that'll do more damage than Power Shot, too. But Dual is to drop anyone. And I like that a bit better, obviously.
Narcism
Penetrating Shot is 10 energy, so 5.
Sausaletus Rex
Next, I like Distracting Shot, personally. It's a nice little interrupt. Fits very well if we're going to focus more on non-Warriors.
Freyas
Distracting Shot is a good interrupt for any target
Sausaletus Rex
That skill lock can be pretty punishing to skill spammers like most casters. Their longer casting times also gives you a better chance to catch them, too.
Deadroot
I don't like Distracting if its just an Anti-Warrior build, but if its for everything its a nice skill.
Freyas
It's cheap, and it can be very nice to disable skills for an extra 20 seconds.
Narcism
Distracting Shot is 5 energy.
Sausaletus Rex
I'm less keen on Hunter's Shot. I mean, Bleeding is nice and all, but you can do better.
Narcism
Distracting Shot gets my vote on any ranger.
Sausaletus Rex
It's a second stringer after the better Ranger attacks. Not awful, just not awesome. I could see dropping that for Debilitating, easily.
Narcism
Dropping Hunter's Shot for Debilitating?
Sausaletus Rex
I'm just not a big fan of DOT damage in general. You can't get more than 20 DPS so it works best as an adjunct to direct damage or other techniques like Deep Wounding someone or otherwise dropping their health to up the percentage of damage.
Narcism
Somehow, if someone is running away, I'd rather cripple them, than induce bleeding.
Sausaletus Rex
Right, that's what Pin Down is for. We're spamming Barrage and Dual for damage, anyway.
Freyas
I would have no problems dropping that- the extra 6 DPS from bleeding is fairly negligible.
Sausaletus Rex
The other candidate to exclude would be Favorable Winds, personally.
Narcism
I believe Half-Moons or Short Bows have the crummiest airtime.
Sausaletus Rex
Granted, Barrage means we can't use any preps and losing that means we lose out on our second damage buff after the Conjure but it's problematic for me.
Pharalon
I'd be looking more at dropping enervating charge personally.
Narcism
I'd be more inclined to drop Favorable Winds vs single targets...
Sausaletus Rex
First, this seems more like a solo build than a build for a team. And you're not going to want it if you're on a team without another Ranger and you run up against a team full of Rangers.
Pharalon
The extra damage from the ritual will really stack up over its lifetime.
Narcism
But if we want a better chance for our Barrage to hit, Favorable Winds looks like a good use of 5% DP.
Sausaletus Rex
It's just a little dicey as a damage buff for my tastes.
Freyas
The biggest use I see for Favorable Winds is for interrupts, as without either Favorable Winds or Read the Wind, you'll likely miss anything with a casting time shorter than 2-3 seconds.
Sausaletus Rex
That's true, it does work if we're going after casters with Debilitating Shot and Distracting Shot.
Freyas
I would probably remove Enervating Charge before Favorable Winds.
Sausaletus Rex
Okay, yeah, if we're not going after Warriors Enervating Charge is pretty poor. It's not that much Lightning Damage and it's causing Weakness to a single target.
Narcism
But we're looking at trying to hit 5 people with Barrage, and if everyone is running around, and we have slow airtime. It'll kill your DPS.
Deadroot
I would like to remove enervating charge as well, I think Weakness can be done better by other chars.
Narcism
For +3 damage on each of your arrows, as well as +XX% chance to hit because the arrows travel faster. I'd personnally sub in Favorable Winds. Only because we're firing so many arrows, and we want them to hit more.
Freyas
Enervating Charge would be nice for a 1vs1 with a warrior, but less useful in team play, which is where you'll generally be fighting.
Sausaletus Rex
But, leaving out Enervating Charge leaves us with only Conjure Lightning from Air. I'd like to get a bit more out of my second skill line...
Narcism
Blinding Flash... ?
Sausaletus Rex
But there's really not much in Lightning that I'd want to replace it. All the AoE is elite. If I'm going to use Lightning Orb or Lightning Strike why am I lugging a bow around?
Deadroot
I'm looking at Air skills we might use instead
Freyas
Gale sounds best to me for Air skills besides Conjure. Though I think you could find better skills from the Ranger lines
Sausaletus Rex
Exhaustion.
Pharalon
Exhaustion will really hurt a ranger.
Sausaletus Rex
Okay, here's a thought. All we want is a Conjure, right? So, why are we in Air? We can pick from Air, Fire, or Water.
Narcism
Good point, as well, Conjure Lightning doesn't penetrate armor...
Blinding Flash looks like it could be useful, but does cost 15 Energy.
Deadroot
I would say Blinding Flash is the most promising to me, but the 15 Energy does hurt.
Sausaletus Rex
Gale, yeah, okay, it's down to 1 second cast but it's still causing Exhaustion that's a non-starter for me, then. As Pharalon says, Exhaustion will kill a Ranger.
Freyas
Yeah- the exhaustion makes it non-spammable. though having a small amount of exhaustion won't affect you- Exhaustion reduces the max amount of energy you can use with a skill, not the actual amount that you have to use
Sausaletus Rex
Okay, Fire doesn't look too promising either.
Narcism
Energy is the staple of any Ranger build (why else is there Expertise)... somehow I don't see there being any incredible, low energy solution, for us in Elementalist skill lines.
Sausaletus Rex
I'd go Water, myself. You can pick up another snaring skill there. Giving you both Pin Down and another snare to use to set up your Barrage or keep people from running.
that makes this character both a damage spammer and a snarer and I could get behind that. Which one, though?
Narcism
You mean a choice between damage and snaring?
Sausaletus Rex
No, the Water snare. Ice Prison's nice if you don't expect Fire damage, but it's single target. Shard Storm's single target, too. For about the same energy and recharge just with a slightly higher casting time you could go with Ice Spikes. Ice Spikes, I like. That's an AoE snare with decent damage. It's not going to last that long but I believe at 10 Water you'll be at 5 seconds.
Narcism
15 Energy with a 25 Energy pool?
Freyas
For a good snare here, I'd say Ice Spikes would be your best bet, though it is still 15 energy. Or you could possibly use Deep Freeze by using a glyph.
Pharalon
I'll throw out the suggestion to only have Conjure Lightning, and sub Whirling Defense in for Enervating Charge.
Narcism
Somehow, I don't think we should bring for a 15 energy AoE snare.
Sausaletus Rex
Right, you can use a Glyph here, so large energy costs aren't that much of a problem.
Pharalon
It's a very "offensive" stance, and as it stands, the build has no dewfensive capabilities whatsoever.
Narcism
It'll end up being that.. cast-only-once in the match.
Freyas
Overall, I'd say that you could probably find better skills from the Ranger lines that would be more useable than the Elementalist skills.
Narcism
Agreed Freyas.
Sausaletus Rex
Well, my idea would be to snare and stay out of trouble. But a defensive stance could work.
Freyas
Elementalist skills are generally fairly energy-intensive, which make them difficult to use on a Ranger.
Narcism
I don't see any use picking skills with a hefty Energy Cost... because there's a need to use a skill tree.
Pharalon
20 second duration, 4 energy cost for Whirling Defense.
Narcism
We have a high Expertise, let's put it to good use.
Deadroot
I think keeping only Conjure Lightning from our secondary is fine.
Sausaletus Rex
Stances are affected by Expertise now. So are shouts. So that’s not a bad idea.
Freyas
I would definately say sub out Hunter’s Shot and Enervating Charge, though.
Narcism
I'm not sold on a single use defensive skill on a hardly-targetted Ranger. I mean, if you ever end up being focus-fired, your team probably has no monks alive.
Sausaletus Rex
Okay, so say we kick those two out and replace one with Debilitating and we'll drop Power for Dual, what's that last slot there? I think the rest of the build is fairly solid, we just need something to fill it out.
Let’s review, Our revamped build currently looks like :
Exp 13, Marks 12, Air 10 Barrage, Debilitating Shot, Distracting Shot, Dual Shot, Favorable Winds, Pin Down, Conjure Lightning, <blank>
Freyas
I'd say that the other slot would be good for either an offensive or defensive stance.
Pharalon
Lightning Reflexes perhaps?
Freyas
We could use something like Lightning Reflexes to increase damage output or Whirling Defense to help stay alive if focused.
Narcism
Charm Animal!
Sausaletus Rex
Let's see, we're spamming attack skills which are tied to our swing rate. A skill that increases our swing rate sounds good to me. (I don't care what the rest of you say, I still like Water for Ice Spikes. But maybe I just have hydromancer fever...)
Narcism
Err.. a spell that increases our swing rate for how many seconds and takes how long to recharge?
Freyas
A possibility would be to throw in an AoE snare such as Ice Spikes. If the character is spending most of their time spamming Barrage and Dual Shot, they should have some extra energy to play with.
Pharalon
Maybe even put a few points in beastmastery and take Tiger’s Fury.
Sausaletus Rex
Actually, isn't it 5 seconds recharge? And 5~10 variable duration?
Pharalon
That doesn't suffer from a cooldown issue, it'll be a drain on energy, but I think the build can cover it,
Sausaletus Rex
It's be fine without any points, if you ask me.
Narcism
5 second duration with 5 second recycle
Sausaletus Rex
It's a stance, stances are instant cast, you just have to watch the recharge time and make sure you keep it up.
Deadroot
The recharge on Lightning Reflexes is 60s.
Narcism
Also 60s on Whilrling Defense.
Freyas
Tigers Fury sounds very nice, if we can find the points to invest some in Beast Mastery.
Pharalon
You can’t get beastmastery to 3 without safricing any points.
Sausaletus Rex
Yeah, Lightning is a bit more situational because it's unspammable.
No, you only have 1 AP left over with a 11/10/10 build. You can have Beastmastery 1, if that makes you happy.
Pharalon
It would.
Sausaletus Rex
Lightning is good because it's also defensive, it'll help you out if you're being focused. Once every 60 seconds...
Freyas
Yeah- we could possibly drop one or two from the elementalist line- you'd lose 1-2 damage on your conjure for a faster attack rate.
Sausaletus Rex
No, I think I like Tiger's. With or without attributes.
Narcism
Ranger?
Focused?
Sausaletus Rex
Yes, I like to plan for when I've already lost the fight...
Narcism
Shoot, give him a Resurrection Signet then.
Pharalon
I'll put my vote on tiger's fury, with the possibility of dropping 1-2 points off Air for Beastmastery is energy becomes an issue.
Freyas
I agree- Tigers Fury for teh win!
Sausaletus Rex
I can live with that.
Deadroot
You can always add a minor Beastmastery rune, too.
Pharalon
Good point.
Sausaletus Rex
Beastmastery 2!
Narcism
2?
Sausaletus Rex
With the leftover AP, yeah. 11 costs 77 AP, 10 costs 61, that's 199 total for a 11/10/10 build. That gives you a whopping 1 AP to play with. I suppose you could go 11/10/9/4 with 4 AP left over.
With runes and whatnot that's 13/12/9/5.
Freyas
Tigers Fury doesn't increase duration until 3.
Deadroot
Yeah, it does. With Beastmastery at 2, it lasts for 6 seconds.
Freyas
though if points are needed, you can drop the air attribute some- having a 33% increased attack speed will boost your damage more than 1-2 damage from the Conjure. I'd probably have to playtest it some to decide- if the energy isn't an issue to keep Tiger's Fury up with a shorter duration, I'd keep the 11/10/10.
Deadroot
With Beastmastery at 5 you only add 1 more second to the duration.
Narcism
One interesting point, with a 1second recharge on barrage... wouldn't you find yourself with an unrecharged Barrage between shots?
Sausaletus Rex
Well, you have to have some time to use your Dual and other spam skills, Narc. A 1 second cooldown means you can use it every other shot.
Freyas
If it's a choice between dropping the damage from conjure a couple points to boost attack speed by 33%, the attack speed gets my vote. Overall, the build should be quite effective for dealing damage to most any characters.
Sausaletus Rex
Anyhow, I'll agree with Freyas, this build can do a lot of damage and to a lot of people. It's pretty well done to start with and I think we've made some good improvements.
Freyas
It was a nice build- no obvious problems, and would probably work fairly well as it was origionally set up.
Deadroot
I'd play around with the build we came up with in PvE to see how well it works there.
Sausaletus Rex
I think the focus on Warriors is a bit of a flawed concept but otherwise, yeah.
Freyas
Though I think with the changes it would be effective in more situations, and have a bit higher damage output than the original build.
Deadroot
Will also give this Ranger noob a chance to play a well designed Ranger.
Narcism
Very versatile build indeed. Damage, AoE, Energy Drain, Cripple
It gets my thumbs up.
Deadroot
Seems like a build that would be welcome on any team.
Sausaletus Rex
I could certainly see myself playing one like it, sure. In fact, I think I probably have at one point or another...
Pharalon
Soemthing you really want to have on a KoH map especially
Freyas
I could definately see playing that build if I ever get away from playing healers.
Sausaletus Rex
Alright, well, I'd like to thank you all for bellying up to the table. I think we had a pretty interesting conversation and I hope everyone else did, too. Thanks to everyone for reading and we'll bring you another installment of the Alpha Roundtable shortly.
And with that our alphas parted to go their separate ways. Working from what they’ve suggested, we at the Gurus have put together a few different versions of a revamped Warrior’s Bane. Read on for a look at them.
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